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[Elaugaufein]

eh, if the disaffected young left is such a potent political force, they'll vote in the midterms. we'll see.

Right so this is how it works now ? "We're going to offer you this box of leftover crusty bits Now if you're not happy with us , you better turn out and vote for us in the mid-terms." In what world does that even begin to make sense ? I mean if someone suggested this about wooing the center, you guys would jump down their throats.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

It seems pretty obvious at this point that we're getting Hillary vs Trump as our general election. Anyone got ideas for the OT title?

Election 2016: *cackle*

 

[Incognito]

Looks like Democrats aren't resting on their laurels.

 

[Veritigo_X]

Trump has a serious chance of beating Hillary.

What demographics besides racist white people are going to vote for Trump? We've already saw in 2012 what happens when you only rely on the white vote. You lose. You lose big time.

 

[User 406]

Or, you know, in eight years the angry young people now will be eight years older with more experience with the political process, and while they'll still be farther left than the age group above them, they'll similarly adapt to the pace of change and the fact that overall things do keep improving, and start looking askance at the new crop of angry leftist college kids for being impractical dreamers.

Meanwhile the people who've seen several complete cycles of this will make futile attempts to explain it, probably on internet message boards or something.

Just sayin'.

 

[jtb]

Right so this is how it works now ? "We're going to offer you this box of leftover crusty bits Now if you're not happy with us , you better turn out and vote for us in the mid-terms." In what world does that even begin to make sense ?

a world where republicans exist?

 

[QuiteWhittle]

Trump has a serious chance of beating Hillary.

Yeah, a recession, an indictment, or a terrorist attack could severely propel Trump's chances in November. I have no reason to believe Trump has a greater than unlikely chance to beat Clinton in a neutral environment though.

If you have data that would undermine his current deficits with swing voters, moderates, women, and minorities, his poor polling in GE match ups, or his historically low unfavorability, then please share.

 

[Roland_Gunner]

Looks like Democrats aren't resting on their laurels.

The degree to which the GOP has been paralyzed by fear of Trump's attacks is hard to believe. Attacking Trump should not be this hard.

 

[Crocodile]

It's a weird conundrum for Sanders. He does great with Independents which would help secure a win in the General, but Democrats insist Hillary is their best chance so overwhelmingly support her. Not the first time this has happened, but as a Sanders supporter it's frustrating.

It's not Democratic voters fault that Sanders only "joined" the party to run now, that he wanted to primary a popular, sitting Democratic president, etc. Sanders only has himself to blame for not laying the ground work down for years before a run.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Or, you know, in eight years the angry young people now will be eight years older with more experience with the political process, and while they'll still be farther left than the age group above them, they'll similarly adapt to the pace of change and the fact that overall things do keep improving, and start looking askance at the new crop of angry leftist college kids for being impractical dreamers.

Meanwhile the people who've seen several complete cycles of this will make futile attempts to explain it, probably on internet message boards or something.

Just sayin'.

Yep. Gotta make sure that everyone is as disappointed with their outcomes and as beaten down and resigned as I was. It'd be a terrible world otherwise.

 

[Tesseract]

Or, you know, in eight years the angry young people now will be eight years older with more experience with the political process, and while they'll still be farther left than the age group above them, they'll similarly adapt to the pace of change and the fact that overall things do keep improving, and start looking askance at the new crop of angry leftist college kids for being impractical dreamers.

Meanwhile the people who've seen several complete cycles of this will make futile attempts to explain it, probably on internet message boards or something.

Just sayin'.

i hope this is aimed at hillary

let go of your ego, shhhhhhhhhh

 

[VendettaRed07]

8 years is a long time, and of course it ignores any reforms that could be set in place, but if we go the next 8 years with President Hillary Clinton without universal single payer health care or massive college debt reform, these people who want it now are not going to be happy.

I think in order to have a successful presidency, Hillary will have to win back the house and senate at some point. Something will have to give, the political gridlock cannot last forever and we need some legitimate legislation to actually be pushed through or else nobody will be happy. Moderate or liberal dems.

I don't think we need single payer as extreme as Bernie's plan to make people happy. A public option would be enough and be able to be spun as our version of "single payer" if we needed.

 

[Macho Madness]

TX Monmouth

Cruz 38
Trump 23
Rubio 21

Hillary 64
Bernie 30

http://www.monmouth.edu/assets/0/32...1087/fd1752af-cc7a-4b4c-9125-1d26f351cc4a.pdf

I have to wonder if she got more of a boost out of winning Nevada than anyone expected.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

My girlfriend really wants Tammy Duckworth to be the 2024 president now that I've talked to her about Duckworth, lol.

Now she just has to win a Senate election.

 

[jtb]

anyways, it's not like ideological purity and impatience are exclusive to the left and Sanders' supporters -- it's played itself out on a much more visible stage in far more destructive fashion with the Tea Party.

I think the main thing that gives people pause about Sanders, or at least gives me pause, is the question mark of his allegiance to the party. if he endorses Hillary graciously and campaigns for her some in the fall, all is forgiven between the two and the left is, probably, stronger for having had this primary, re-awakening that liberal anger, and hopefully channeling that in a way that energizes the base in November into a general election win.

 

[HylianTom]

Alright - it's David Duke time! He's urging his supporters to do some pro-Trump volunteering.

Quoth the David: "Voting against Donald Trump at this point is really treason to your heritage.”

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczy...rters-to-volunteer-and-vote-for-tr#.wrKw8dZxG

===

And remember those assurances that Hillary's team is already combing through Trump's Howard Stern appearances? Buzzfeed has already done some of the legwork. Hello, gender gap!

Donald Trump Said A Lot Of Gross Things About Women On “Howard Stern”


There's way too much to quote here, but I'll say this: who the hell doesn't like oral sex?!

 

[Elaugaufein]

I have to wonder if she got more of a boost out of winning Nevada than anyone expected.

Crab was the one that said that Nevada was the one that Bernie had to win to be in with a chance at all, if he's not the only one with that viewpoint you'd expect it to seriously take the wind out of Bernie's sails. He was never going to win SC.

anyways, it's not like ideological purity and impatience are exclusive to the left and Sanders' supporters -- it's played itself out on a much more visible stage in far more destructive fashion with the Tea Party.

I think the main thing that gives people pause about Sanders, or at least gives me pause, is the question mark of his allegiance to the party. if he endorses Hillary graciously and campaigns for her some in the fall, all is forgiven between the two and the left is, probably, stronger for having had this primary, re-awakening that liberal anger, and hopefully channeling that in a way that energizes the base in November into a general election win.

See, this is the bit that I find disappointing. The idea that Sanders supporters are largely ideologically similar to the Tea Party is freaking nuts. Sanders isn't even proposing particular strong Social Democracy (there is enormous room to the Left of Sander's proposals even where he's economically furtherest Left. The Tea Party is practically a nationalist / nativist movement at this point and Trump has realized that which is why he's scything through the primaries.). On the economic axis: Democrats are so god damn terrified of extremism that anything that even whiffs of being past Center - Left is viewed as deeply radical. They are significantly better on the social left but that's only going to feed the resentment further.

I'm pretty sure he'll endorse her. Frankly even if he left the Democrats afterwards (and I see little reason too, I mean he's already "tainted" himself in that respect, so it'd be hard to pull out in any way that looks good for him), it'd still make sense for him to endorse Hillary. Your're presidential election system means its far more beneficial for his views to add what he can of his support to hers, out of personal ideological interest if not party loyalty.

I'm not sure if Clinton would want him to campaign for her though. You run the risk of getting political ads saying "Communist Sanders is campaigning for Clinton proving that she's a Communist"

 

[Teggy]

Looks like Democrats aren't resting on their laurels.

There was a roundtable last night on CNN with female Republican commentators talking specifically about this. They said the one thing that actually worked was when Jeb hit Trump on eminent domain kicking an old lady out her home. They believed the "not conservative" attacks were useless but these emotional attacks would work and didn't understand why the Republicans were oblivious to it.

 

[Poodlestrike]

anyways, it's not like ideological purity and impatience are exclusive to the left and Sanders' supporters -- it's played itself out on a much more visible stage in far more destructive fashion with the Tea Party.

I think the main thing that gives people pause about Sanders, or at least gives me pause, is the question mark of his allegiance to the party. if he endorses Hillary graciously and campaigns for her some in the fall, all is forgiven between the two and the left is, probably, stronger for having had this primary, re-awakening that liberal anger, and hopefully channeling that in a way that energizes the base in November into a general election win.

I don't think anybody's said that the calls for purity are exclusive to Sanders' camp; in fact, I've mostly seen them come up in the context of a statement like "Gee, Sanders' guys are starting to sound like the Tea Party wrt ideological purity."

 

[Bronx-Man]

Or, you know, in eight years the angry young people now will be eight years older with more experience with the political process, and while they'll still be farther left than the age group above them, they'll similarly adapt to the pace of change and the fact that overall things do keep improving, and start looking askance at the new crop of angry leftist college kids for being impractical dreamers.

Meanwhile the people who've seen several complete cycles of this will make futile attempts to explain it, probably on internet message boards or something.

Just sayin'.

I specifically remember young voters for Obama in 2008 suddenly becoming bitter during midterms because they realized he couldn't wave his magic wand and make 99% of America's problems vanish. So yeah, I don't have the same faith that you do.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Someone's legitimately got to get the tiny hands meme into mainstream conversation. Not even kidding.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

There was a roundtable last night on CNN with female Republican commentators talking specifically about this. They said the one thing that actually worked was when Jeb hit Trump on eminent domain kicking an old lady out her home. They believed the "not conservative" attacks were useless but these emotional attacks would work and didn't understand why the Republicans were oblivious to it.

They're dumb as fuck. They're in a bubble so they basically believe that most Republicans are like Ted Cruz and care a lot about flat taxes and constitutional and libertarian interpretations of property rights, but really, they care a fuckton more about all the people that Trump laid off or caused to lose their jobs from bad business decisions.

 

[Angry Fork]

Or, you know, in eight years the angry young people now will be eight years older with more experience with the political process, and while they'll still be farther left than the age group above them, they'll similarly adapt to the pace of change and the fact that overall things do keep improving, and start looking askance at the new crop of angry leftist college kids for being impractical dreamers.

Meanwhile the people who've seen several complete cycles of this will make futile attempts to explain it, probably on internet message boards or something.

Just sayin'.

Progress is slow when moderates/liberals prevent it from happening.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I specifically remember young voters for Obama in 2008 suddenly becoming bitter during midterms because they realized he couldn't wave his magic wand and make 99% of America's problems vanish. So yeah, I don't have the same faith that you do.

But we voted a black guy into office! Didn't that change everything?

Wonder how long it'll be until we have our second black person and/or second woman president. That'll be the point where I think we've made huge progress with racism and sexism in this country.

 

[Plinko]

They're dumb as fuck. They're in a bubble so they basically believe that most Republicans are like Ted Cruz and care a lot about flat taxes and constitutional and libertarian interpretations of property rights, but really, they care a fuckton more about all the people that Trump laid off or caused to lose their jobs from bad business decisions.

Exactly, and this is why I see Rubio attacking Trump about Obamacare backfiring. If Trump simply states that he likes how everybody has access to healthcare and that discriminating against people with pre-existing conditions was unethical, I think it will strike a chord with the general GOP voter. Many of them have been helped by the ACA.

 

[jtb]

Crab was the one that said that Nevada was the one that Bernie had to win to be in with a chance at all, if he's not the only one with that viewpoint you'd expect it to seriously take the wind out of Bernie's sails. He was never going to win SC.




See, this is the bit that I find disappointing. The idea that Sanders supporters are largely ideologically similar to the Tea Party is freaking nuts. Sanders isn't even proposing strong Socialism (there is enormous room to the Left of Sander's proposals even where he's economically furtherest Left. The Tea Party is practically a nationalist / nativist movement at this point and Trump has realized that which is why he's scything through the primaries.). On the economic axis: Democrats are so god damn terrified of extremism that anything that even whiffs of being past Center - Left is viewed as deeply radical. They are significantly better on the social left but that's only going to feed the resentment further.

eh, I think you have it backwards -- ideologically they're very similar (they are more extreme than the electorally-concerned "establishment" of their party) and appealing to those fringes will come at a clear electoral price, come the general election. we're already seeing Republican senators appease their base so they don't get primaried with things like the Supreme Court nomination in ways that could very well come back to haunt them in November.

but practically, I agree with you. this is far less destructive than the Tea Party, if for no other reason than it would be hard to have a more destructive impact on your party than nominating Donald fucking Trump as your presidential candidate. Like I said, barring Bernie being a complete sore loser (keeping a very close eye on Davine and Weaver), I think this will re-energize the party base and could very well help ensure victory in November, a victory that hopefully extends to down ballot races.

 

[Armaros]

Oh look more and more Bernie/Hillary Threads getting filled with articles from The Blaze, Washington Times, and other illustrious sources.

 

[Abinash117]

The degree to which the GOP has been paralyzed by fear of Trump's attacks is hard to believe. Attacking Trump should not be this hard.

They don't really know how to attack him and at the same time they don't want to. If the GOP really tried Trump probably wouldn't gotten this far, but the less they did it became more likely that Trump is going to get ahead and the same deal with bad attacks. The beauty of it is that the only real way to beat Trump at this point if the polls are right is that they have to attack him, pray that everyone else drops out, or go further to the right and out-crazy Trump.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Oh look more and more Bernie/Hillary Threads getting filled with articles from The Blaze, Washington Times, and other illustrious sources.

IGNORE OT POLITICS THREADS

DO NOT REPLY TO OT POLITICS THREADS

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Exactly, and this is why I see Rubio attacking Trump about Obamacare backfiring. If Trump simply states that he likes how everybody has access to healthcare and that discriminating against people with pre-existing conditions was unethical, I think it will strike a chord with the general GOP voter. Many of them have been helped by the ACA.

Rubio trying "I attack you... FROM THE RIGHT!" when 8 other candidates have all failed miserably trying this really is just such a dumb fucking move.

 

[The Technomancer]

Progress is slow when moderates/liberals prevent it from happening.

Progress is slow because the American political system is designed to be slow because the same thing that keeps Bernie from being able to implement single payer and free education is the same thing that would keep Trump from deporting 11 million people and starting a trade war with China

 

[PBY]

Rubio trying "I attack you... FROM THE RIGHT!" when 8 other candidates have all failed miserably trying this really is just such a dumb fucking move.

I actually think most GOP voters like to think of themselves as compassionate, helpful people. Trump saying that we don't want people dying on the streets and we're gonna care for them, but do it the old fashioned way is perfect.

 

[Angry Fork]

Progress is slow because the American political system is designed to be slow because the same thing that keeps Bernie from being able to implement single payer and free education is the same thing that would keep Trump from deporting 11 million people and starting a trade war with China

Which is why people like Hillary want to preserve this system so badly. It's not that slow progress is inevitable, it's that if this system didn't exist as it does then moderates would cease to exist. Hillary and her supporters want things to remain the same because if it wasn't they would be unnecessary. All of this is about establishment self-preservation, not what's good for the people.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

Maddow talking about how many records trump is breaking with voter turnout, do I need to be worried about this?

what Trumpcon level we at?

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Ross Douthat actually had a good anti-Trump gameplan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/opinion/sunday/the-way-to-stop-trump.html?_r=0

Basically, Trump is seen as the strongman for white working class people so will be an asshole to "others" but you can pretty easily show that Trump is an asshole towards white working class people to and that would destroy his image with his voters.

Show all the people that Trump scammed with Trump University, show the people that Trump tried to take advantage of who were middle class, show the job losses coming from Trump's bankruptcies alongside how he bragged about using bankruptcy. Show that he's a fucking prick to everyone and not just rich people and people of color.

 

[Armaros]

Which is why people like Hillary want to preserve this system so badly. It's not that slow progress is inevitable, it's that if this system didn't exist as it does then moderates would cease to exist. Hillary and her supporters want things to remain the same because if it wasn't they would be unnecessary. All of this is about establishment self-preservation, not what's good for the people.

So that means the Founding Fathers were dirty Establishment for forming a system of government that requires slow change.

 

[Macho Madness]

A lot of people are angry because the media keeps telling them the economy is back and growing but they're seeing little to no benefit of it besides being able to get crummy jobs. Unskilled labor is a huge problem in this country, and being told to "pull up their bootstraps" for 30 years has gotten them nowhere. Trump is telling them he can fix it all and get them some good jobs, and he's telling all the lying politicians who created this mess off. Who wouldn't vote for this guy?

 

[Elaugaufein]

Progress is slow because the American political system is designed to be slow because the same thing that keeps Bernie from being able to implement single payer and free education is the same thing that would keep Trump from deporting 11 million people and starting a trade war with China

If Trump actually wins the White House , there's not much that'll stop any of that. He'll definitely hold the House (it's hard to envision a scenario where Republicans take the White House but not the House in the current environment) and he'll have a decent chance of a majority in the Senate. And he's pretty much guaranteed to be able to to get a Conservative Supreme Court somewhere in his term (Obama's not going to get a Solid Liberal in , if he gets anyone at all). About the only thing stopping him will be the filibuster and in a situation where the Republicans hold all 3 houses they'll remove that in double quick time.

I'm still amazed that someone thought it was a good idea to let legislatures draw their own electoral districts.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Which is why people like Hillary want to preserve this system so badly. It's not that slow progress is inevitable, it's that if this system didn't exist as it does then moderates would cease to exist. Hillary and her supporters want things to remain the same because if it wasn't they would be unnecessary. All of this is about establishment self-preservation, not what's good for the people.

Let's say the establishment is finished, but someone as far-right as Trump or Cruz gets into office and has the power to do basically whatever rash shit comes to their mind. Would that be good for the people?

 

[dramatis]

Progress is slow when moderates/liberals prevent it from happening.

Which is why people like Hillary want to preserve this system so badly. It's not that slow progress is inevitable, it's that if this system didn't exist as it does then moderates would cease to exist. Hillary and her supporters want things to remain the same because if it wasn't they would be unnecessary. All of this is about establishment self-preservation, not what's good for the people.

Yeah, it's pretty slow when these wild liberals don't vote in the midterms

But of course they don't deserve half the blame

 

[PBY]

Maddow talking about how many records trump is breaking with voter turnout, do I need to be worried about this?

what Trumpcon level we at?

No worries. Still more worried about Rubio.

 

[maabus1999]

Maddow talking about how many records trump is breaking with voter turnout, do I need to be worried about this?

what Trumpcon level we at?

Not yet as even record primary turnouts are a fraction of the turn out during the GE. And honestly Trump is going to drive turnout for AND against him in the GE if he is the nominee, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was another "record"

 

[QuiteWhittle]

If Trump actually wins the White House , there's not much that'll stop any of that. He'll definitely hold the House (it's hard to envision a scenario where Republicans take the White House but not the House in the current environment) and he'll have a decent chance of a majority in the Senate. And he's pretty much guaranteed to be able to to get a Conservative Supreme Court somewhere in his term (Obama's not going to get a Solid Liberal in , if he gets anyone at all). About the only thing stopping him will be the filibuster and in a situation where the Republicans hold all 3 houses they'll remove that in double quick time.

I'm still amazed that someone thought it was a good idea to let legislatures draw their own electoral districts.

His fellow Republicans would stop him just like Obama's fellow Democrats stopped the public option. Republican politicians are largely pro-free trade, a good portion of the caucus(including the House speaker) are pro-immigration, they're not going to go along with everything he wants.

 

[Holmes]

People going into full anti-Clinton mode in OT now that she's looking to be the nominee.

 

[The Technomancer]

Which is why people like Hillary want to preserve this system so badly. It's not that slow progress is inevitable, it's that if this system didn't exist as it does then moderates would cease to exist. Hillary and her supporters want things to remain the same because if it wasn't they would be unnecessary. All of this is about establishment self-preservation, not what's good for the people.

...what? No, the point of the slow system is so that radicals period can't get things done because the chance of a "good" radical is not worth the risk of a "bad" radical getting in

Honest question for you: if the election was purely probabilistic and it came down to a 50% chance that a candidate you support (not even Bernie, someone you are genuinely behind) wins and a 50% chance someone like Donald Trump wins, would you take those odds? Would you flip that coin?

 

[Roland_Gunner]

Media needs to chill. The FL Q poll #'s are way wrong. We are going to win Florida. Period. Take it to the bank.

Team Rubio is going all in on a Florida win. Not like they've got another choice though.

 

[NeoXChaos]

People going into full anti-Clinton mode in OT now that she's looking to be the nominee.

Y2Kev and Shinra are taking care of it. Don't worry about it.

 

[Crocodile]

If Trump actually wins the White House , there's not much that'll stop any of that. He'll definitely hold the House (it's hard to envision a scenario where Republicans take the White House but not the House in the current environment) and he'll have a decent chance of a majority in the Senate. And he's pretty much guaranteed to be able to to get a Conservative Supreme Court somewhere in his term (Obama's not going to get a Solid Liberal in , if he gets anyone at all). About the only thing stopping him will be the filibuster and in a situation where the Republicans hold all 3 houses they'll remove that in double quick time.

I'm still amazed that someone thought it was a good idea to let legislatures draw their own electoral districts.

Things like the Constitution and us not having enough money to do the crazy things he says will stop him.

Yeah, it's pretty slow when these wild liberals don't vote in the midterms

But of course they don't deserve half the blame

How do we fucking solve this problem? Do we need to create a Left version of Fox News or something (which would be awful I feel).

 

[Elaugaufein]

eh, I think you have it backwards -- ideologically they're very similar (they are more extreme than the electorally-concerned "establishment" of their party) and appealing to those fringes will come at a clear electoral price, come the general election. we're already seeing Republican senators appease their base so they don't get primaried with things like the Supreme Court nomination in ways that could very well come back to haunt them in November.

but practically, I agree with you. this is far less destructive than the Tea Party, if for no other reason than it would be hard to have a more destructive impact on your party than nominating Donald fucking Trump as your presidential candidate. Like I said, barring Bernie being a complete sore loser (keeping a very close eye on Davine and Weaver), I think this will re-energize the party base and could very well help ensure victory in November, a victory that hopefully extends to down ballot races.

See this is where we disagree. I don't think the European Greens are similar to the Front National. Sure both are more ideologically extreme than their respective centrist groups but the idea that being 75% along the Left access is equivalent to being 90% along the Right axis is problematic in and of itself , it means that that your view of the center is ~15% to the Right to start with (and no that's not representative of either groups actual respective positions along their axis I just picked the numbers to make a point). Ideological position isn't quaternary, there's positions other's than Right , Center- Right, Center- Left and Left.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Team Rubio is going all in on a Florida win. Not like they've got another choice though.

Rubio's team will talking about how a second place finish with zero delegates in Florida is a win three weeks from now.