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PoliGAF 2017 |OT2| Well, maybe McMaster isn't a traitor.
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
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Yeah I am seeing more and more of this "both sides" even on gaf lately, and I don't understand it. If anything, Donald Trump should be painting a pretty clear picture for people that Democrats are nowhere near as awful as that dumpster fire and the party that supports him.
Maybe in their minds Trump is so awful that they think that now is the time for Democrats to push more Left but I disagree. This country has shown that it just simply is not ready for fast progressive changes as much as I would love them.
What if you allow yourself to be as critical of the Ds as you are to the Rs? Losing to Trump and still pampering the disconnected moderates afterward is the real nonsense.
They use activism to promote their shit moderate agenda, look at how the DNC wants 'to communicate their vision better'. It's politics for 'we gotta fool people into voting for us'.
Proof from 2014
Same shit now
No self-reflection at all.
nice rebuttal
Basileus777
Member
Yeah, lets spout both sides nonsense a few days after the Republicans tried to ruin 10s of millions of lives that were improved in a Democratic bill.
As far as I'm concerned the fact that the "both sides" crowd is doubling down lately is nothing more than a reaction to their narrative collapsing more than ever.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I was going to say, haha. It's ridiculous.
In the grand scheme of politics right now, some stupid photoshop on the Twitter account of the Democrats that nobody actually reads or cares about is not really worth anyone's time.
Who is spouting both sides nonsense? I'm sorry some people actually care about helping the poor and threatened instead of red vs blue.
Is criticism of the Democratic party truly taboo because 'people will think both sides are the same'? So all that you allow yourself to do is circle jerk criticism at the GOP?
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
It was idiotic to use that photo and alter it. If they had a problem with part of the image they should have used a different one. And I'm certainly for continuing to move left and work towards more socialized programs.
But a major American political party will never support or march under the phrase "Capitalism is a disease". Never ever ever ever ever. Wrong country, try another. There is a space the size of the Grand Canyon between "Capitalism is a disease" and "pampering the disconnected moderates".
Aaron Strife
Banned
Sheepishness.
"Uh, hey, all those things we said about you guys being communists and traitors and how we were just going to do whatever we wanted, um, yeah. Do you wanna do healthcare with us?"
Basileus777
Member
Care about helping the poor? Like the millions surviving off of medicaid expansion?
Carpe Libertatem
Member
Your "criticism" of the Democratic Party was about a dumb photoshopped tweet
A lot of us have criticized Democrats, fwiw. But it's not for the dumb things you're talking about - it's for actually important things like filibustering Gorsuch
The idea that the Democratic Party doesn't care about helping the poor and threatened is ludicrous, too.
RustyNails
Member
Dont hide behind "I want to help poor people!" by bringing out a low level goof up on some intern's part and blaming it on the direction of the party. What criticism of the party do you have when you bring up stories that do not affect the poor people in any way?
You clearly don't know me if you don't think I criticize Dems.
But there's criticizing Dems...and then there's this. Saying that Democrats don't understand activism, or even implying that they're not much different than Republicans isn't being critical of the party. It's lunacy.
If your premise is that dems need to move to the left to have truly changed then I suggest you look at the last time an ideologue drove a party to the left in response to right wing dominance.
If your premise is that moderate democrats get nothing done I would advise you to take a look at the law the GOP just tried to kill and how many people (read: 24 million) would have been negatively effected at its butchering.
If your premise is that moderate democrats are bad because they are moderate I would say yeah welcome to america. We had a communism scare a few decades ago and socialisms name is mud in the minds of many here. Get fucking used to it.
If your premise is that moderate democrats get nothing done I would advise you to take a look at the law the GOP just tried to kill and how many people (read: 24 million) would have been negatively effected at its butchering.
If your premise is that moderate democrats are bad because they are moderate I would say yeah welcome to america. We had a communism scare a few decades ago and socialisms name is mud in the minds of many here. Get fucking used to it.
Sorry but this sounds exactly like how a conversation with pro-austerity European Social Democrats goes. 'But how can you say we did nothing, look at these crumbs we gave them! You did nothing!'
I never said they were not much different than the Republicans. It's a kneejerk reaction.
Hiding the failings of capitalism and not allowing an honest discussion most certainly affects the poor. Without proper analysis, structural poverty will keep existing. It isn't just the tweet but the tweet does sum up the whole discussion. The US poor are trapped. Vote Republican and be smashed, vote Democrats and be dependent on the whatever compromise they decide to offer you this time. No real support. Nobody stands truly behind them.
You are ignoring political realities in favor of blind outrage. Obama helped a lot of people with the ACA and so did many moderate democrats. It is in no small part the reason democrats control nothing at the moment but he thought it was worth doing. And it was. So get bent if you think it wasn't.
RustyNails
Member
Nah, GOP doesn't want to work with democrats. They will keep blaming anyone for their failures. This "calls of bipartisanship" are a red herring. Dont fall for it. The important issue is that this is a failure of Republican party unity.
Democrats are actually glee that they defeated Trump. They can go back to their districts and say they saved Medicare (which they technically did). Those in red districts can also say that they can stand up to Trump if things like medicare and healthcare are on the line.
Medicaid expansion has saved lives. And it's not the fault of the Democrats that more isn't being done.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Carpe Libertatem
Member
Equating health care to "crumbs" is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard in my life
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I have to believe it is a result of the new leadership, or at least I hope so.
As for being bipartisan, I am fine with it if it is a good bill. The problem is that republicans do not seem to have any inkling of creating or pushing a bill that is good for most Americans.
Exactly.
Republicans didn't want to work with Democrats then and they still don't now. What they want is to be able to spread blame. All it'll take is one Democrat crossing the aisle and every shitty bill they put up will be hailed as a "bipartisan effort."
BlastProcessing
Member
My wife is disabled. She has massive medical bills and needs. We rely on Medicare. The GOP would have destroyed Medicare. I'll tell her that we should't settle for these crumbs that are literally sustaining her life.
I would think that right after the GOP just displayed the difference between being a radical opposition party who gets to throw out wild claims and policies with no repercussions and and a party that actually has to deal with the realities of power, you would be able to understand the difference.
You can sit there and throw rhetorical bombs and hot takes a the failing Democratic party from afar, but it's a pretty different situation when your boots are on the ground.
Crumbs can save lives. The ACA also was a great achievement by the way, seeing how the situation was. I'm not denying that. Still Obama didn't open the discussion about a public option for example. Him talking about what is not politically feasible but politically desirable.
He did it with climate change, why not other things? I'm open to being corrected on this in the case he did.
Don't be stupid (not voting Dem in a case like the last election) but also never settle (being content with some healthcare instead of perusing a system that improves even more lives and holding politicians accountable for being happy with the bare minimum).
whyamihere
Banned
Carpe Libertatem
Member
The House passed the ACA with public option, the Senate came very close (and the people who blocked it in the Senate are no longer there).
DUFFMCWALIN
Member
I thought the same thing until I started reading Americas Bitter Pill the other day by Steven Brill. It's somewhat of a miracle that something as large as the ACA got through. The public option just wasn't tenable (from my understanding).
Yeah that's been the democrats goal for decades. Obama opened the ACA with a public option. It lost by one vote.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Literally the only reason to be as critical of the Dems as we are of the Republicans is if we first accept that one is as bad and as equally deserving of criticism as the other.
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Yeah.
Anyway, to answer your question in better faith, can the D's do better? Yeah, sure. But every time you attack them from the left, you encourage the already skittish liberal voting base in this country to stay home. There is a time and a place, man.
There's no real need to rebut you, because I always remember you as the guy who thinks it is completely justifiable to steal as long as your target is Hillary Clinton.
Who honestly needs to rebut a guy with no morals, no self awareness, and no self-reflection of his own, marching in trying to tell other people how much other people suck?
Viewing everything through lens of outrage about a singular vision is precisely the same way Republicans failed at their healthcare bill.
She got the boot for having a decent stance. That is still funny to me
Oh, so you don't know shit about shit then. OK, good to know.
RastaMentality
Banned
who cares honestly. any way we can get these aggressively racist, awful people out of here, i'm good.
I mean
Have you considered knowing anything before talking
edit: I can't let go of how amazing this is
"THE DEMOCRATS ARE NEOLIBERAL SELLOUTS AND OBAMA DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO ADVOCATE FOR GOOD POLICIES p.s. I actually have no idea whether Obama advocated for good policy or not so if he did please disregard"
I mean yeah, it's an obvious ploy. Republicans will keep saying they are reaching out to Democrats, not sincerely, and Democrats will keep refusing because they know they are full of shit as they have shown time and time again, so Republicans can then say "see America, it is the Democrats that are unreasonable they won't support anything we do!".
It will probably work at least in part because many Americans are too stupid to realize Republicans spent the last 8 years working against the Democrats in any way they possibly could and it's them that have sabotaged ObamaCare. Democrats weren't loud enough about it though.
They wouldn't be poor if they just got jobs, right?
He did push for a public option again in 2016 from what I can read, so I was mistaken. This doesn't make them free from the label 'neoliberal sellouts' tho lmao, the shitbucket is deep.
Crimson_Gold
Member
Your holier than thou attitude is something to behold. It does not galvanize people to your cause like you think it does. This type of purity that you're seeking does not exist.
Real question though: why should anyone care about what you think when you couldn't even be bothered to do the most basic research there is on an issue before commenting? It's one thing if it's breaking news and you haven't heard yet, that's excusable, but people have been lamenting the death of the public option in the Senate for years. Why should we care about what you label people when you obviously don't care about the facts?
I'm not a leftcom (purists in the socialist/communist sphere), I'm just not a liberal. I'd probably have the same reaction if it was me vs leftcoms or certain 3rd world bolsheviks. At some point the things you agree with ends and the things you disagree with begin. It's in the nature of having different ideologies. Maybe it's just better to stay in my bubble and leave others in theirs.
(I also supported Bernie, purist socialists did not)
I acknowledged my mistake, ironic to go on and say I don't care about the facts when I showed that I do. This subject just isn't the deciding point for me to stop seeing the Democrats as neoliberals, that's different from not caring about the facts.
So it's a plus in my book that Obama actually still pushed for it afterwards, makes him less centrist than I thought he was. Which is great. But it also doesn't make him Bernie.
Your bubble has no facts, so I think we'd all rather stay out of it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Relevant
Anyone who thinks we don't have good things because we just "don't want it enough" is full of shit
MetalGearZed
Member
^Ha
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
Ramirez actually had a funny one for once
That's good.
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