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[Diablos]

Odds of passing tho?

50/50 at this point I would think

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Remember Ryan is a true believer, that Randian belief trumps his pragmatism.

 

[metalslimer]

Lmao Ryan is delusional

Does he realize that if additional measures would get filibustered they will never pass on their own? That's why conservatives are fighting this. If this is the only thing that can pass through reconciliation they are screwed

 

[Roland_Gunner]

Odds of passing tho?

50/50 at this point I would think

Even Tom Cotton says the house bill can't pass the senate. I just don't see anything that gets approved in both houses.

 

[A Serious Man]

Never go Full Ryan.

 

[Plinko]

Jonathan Cohn‏ @CitizenCohn

Paul Ryan says insurance can't work if healthy must pay more to subsidize the sick. But this is exactly what happens in every employer plan.

Classic Ryan. Huge lie to defend the rich.

At first I thought Ryan was a smart, tactical politician. He isn't. He is an Ayn Rand loving nut.

 

[Doc Holliday]

dana Bash "Vintage Paul Ryan, Policy wonk"

 

[Ogodei]

The idea of such a wide spread and massive bill being designed, signed and implemented within a week is insane. That's not how this works. Without even looking into the bill, just by how it's being passed, you know it's garbage because good major bills are complicated, with lots of time, care and work put into them. This is a scattershot of a bunch of GOP ideas with no actual consistency or any workable plan, just thrown into a bill and passed instantly with potentially disastrous results for not only the country (obviously) but their entire party's future over the next decade.

It's pretty obvious to any observer that the GOP have no idea how to actually do the whole "politics" thing anymore. They got complacent and cocky with Obama. He gave them an easy out to do and say whatever they wanted. There's no more Obama. They have no more excuses. They're going to own this entire debacle, and nothing is going to stop the slaughter that will occur in 2018. Any party that even wanted to dream of winning future elections would never even propose this law in jest. Let alone pass it in a week and a half.

They're poking the AARP beast and they don't quite seem to fully understand what exactly the consequences of doing that are.

They're banking that old white people have embraced identity politics to the point where the GOP could do anything they want to them and they'll still vote GOP because they're white.

Edit: then who fucking pays for the sick? Sick can't afford that.

Allen West was nuts but his statement "don't get sick, or if you do get sick, die quickly" is probably the truest statement ever uttered in the Capitol.

 

[Blader]

Ryan is full speed ahead on this. Kind of shocked rn

Ryan knows if they don't get this passed in the next few weeks, Republicans are going to go home to angry town halls again during the April recess, which will lead to more cold feet. Ryan also really wants to knock out tax reform this year before his caucus begins turning their attention to the midterms, and can't do the tax reform package he wants until healthcare is squared away first.

Classic Ryan. Huge lie to defend the rich.

At first I thought Ryan was a smart, tactical politician. He isn't. He is an Ayn Rand loving nut.

He has been in Congress nearly 20 years, but hasn't had any real power until a year ago. For all his rep as an in-the-weeds policy wonk, he seems to be actually pretty bad at policymaking.

 

[barber]

Classic Ryan. Huge lie to defend the rich.

At first I thought Ryan was a smart, tactical politician. He isn't. He is an Ayn Rand loving nut.

Might as well say that hard workers shouldnt pay taxes to subsidize the unemployed...
I really hate libertarians / Rand lovers.

 

[RastaMentality]

Ryan knows if they don't get this passed in the next few weeks, Republicans are going to go home to angry town halls again during the April recess, which will lead to more cold feet. Ryan also really wants to knock out tax reform this year before his caucus begins turning their attention to the midterms, and can't do the tax reform package he wants until healthcare is squared away first.

ready for all of this to explode in their faces.

 

[Vixdean]

Paul Ryan is a policy wonk in the sense that he can look into a camera and genuinely advocate for regressive conservative garbage because he's a true believer and not just in it for the tax breaks.

 

[Plinko]

Democrats need to jump to the forefront instantly on this and start saying this bill that hurts the sick and poor is blatantly anti-Christian.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

Democrats need to jump to the forefront instantly on this and start saying this bill that hurts the sick and poor is blatantly anti-Christian.

But that would require people to actually understand the principles of Christianity and not embrace the christapitilism that proliferates the US

 

[Ogodei]

But that would require people to actually understand the principles of Christianity and not embrace the christapitilism that proliferates the US

Supply-Side Jesus says "Turn away from me, Demoncrats!"

 

[VendettaRed07]

Democrats need to jump to the forefront instantly on this and start saying this bill that hurts the sick and poor is blatantly anti-Christian.

No they should say it hurts everyone. The voters we need and religious right do not give a fuck about those people or Christian values. If they did they wouldn't have elected trump

 

[RastaMentality]

Democrats need to jump to the forefront instantly on this and start saying this bill that hurts the sick and poor is blatantly anti-Christian.

I wish at least the midwestern dems were smart enough to do this.

 

[sangreal]

Lmao Ryan is delusional

Does he realize that if additional measures would get filibustered they will never pass on their own? That's why conservatives are fighting this. If this is the only thing that can pass through reconciliation they are screwed

he is betting on democrats caving once there is no (ungutted) ACA to fall back on

which is basically the same thing he is hoping will happen to republicans in reverse -- that they will cave because otherwise the ACA won't be 'repealed' (amended)

 

[Ogodei]

Joe Kennedy's already talked scripture, by the way, since he took objection to Ryan calling this "an act of mercy."

 

[Wilsongt]

Democrats need to jump to the forefront instantly on this and start saying this bill that hurts the sick and poor is blatantly anti-Christian.

The hardcore Christians won't care as some of them have moved on to Medishare so they don't have to pay for shit they don't want to.

 

[Veritigo_X]

I wish at least the midwestern dems were smart enough to do this.

Sherrod Brown's been on it.

 

[Slizeezyc]

Paul Ryan made the mistake of going full Ayn Rand. You never go full Ayn Rand.

 

[Wilsongt]

Donald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump

Despite what you hear in the press, healthcare is coming along great. We are talking to many groups and it will end in a beautiful picture!
12:01 PM · Mar 9, 2017

Surejan.gif

Paul Ryan made the mistake of going full Ayn Rand. You never go full Ayn Rand.

Not even Ayn Rand went full Ayn Rand.

 

[jtb]

Paul "Serious Principled Conservative" "Hashtag Better Way" Ryan is a fucking moron.

 

[RastaMentality]

Sherrod Brown's been on it.

I'm not religious in the slightest but I still feel we should invoke christianity when necessary. and healthcare is where it's necessary.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Invoking Christianity is worth a shot, but last year, we spent so much time talking up how un-American Trump was and literally no one cared.

People genuinely care more about Christianity than they care about veterans, but we still had Trump mocking POWs and getting the "patriot" vote last year.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

Odds of passing tho?

50/50 at this point I would think

20%. If you're a Freedom Caucus/Tea Party member why would you vote for anything that doesn't repeal Obamacare in full. Worse yet the bill preserves some of the concepts they find most odious. Nor will it pass the senate apparently.

 

[More_Badass]

"Please believe me instead" is the new Trump tactic after they realized shouting fake news at everything doesn't work?

Donald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump

Despite what you hear in the press, healthcare is coming along great. We are talking to many groups and it will end in a beautiful picture!
12:01 PM · Mar 9, 2017

Surejan.gif

 

[pigeon]

Invoking Christianity is worth a shot, but last year, we spent so much time talking up how un-American Trump was and literally no one cared.

People genuinely care more about Christianity than they care about veterans, but we still had Trump mocking POWs and getting the "patriot" vote last year.

Evangelicals don't give a shit about Christianity.

 

[kirblar]

Hot take, all we currently know is that if you run a fascist country and call it communist it doesn't work

Edit: in general your whole argument on this topic is weirdly confused between socialism as an economic idea and state socialism as a political idea. Europe is pretty happy having functional socialist parties everywhere advocating socialist stuff. They just don't have socialist states. Those definitely didn't work! Consider the reason why it's called "social democracy" and not "socialist capitalism."

They have parties, but they don't have socialist economic systems, and thus, don't have socialist states. They gave up trying for those a long time ago. Having a far-left party in love with bad ideas doesn't change that.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I don't think trying to invoke the Social Gospel is a game-changer that will end Trump and Republicanism but seeing people at angry town halls like Tom Cotton's Very Bad No Good Terrible Town Hall reference it when chastising the GOP for being evil snakes makes me think it could be worthwhile on the margins. At least in my personal experience lots of churchgoers are Supply Side Jesus types who will never have a come-to-Jesus moment but not all and some of those might not be always politically engaged.

But maybe I'm biased because a lot of my thirst for social justice came from church experiences when I was younger. I realize that puts me in a big minority though!

 

[Holmes]

Paul Ryan is a policy wonk in the sense that he can look into a camera and genuinely advocate for regressive conservative garbage because he's a true believer and not just in it for the tax breaks.

Yeah. I would say he's a policy wonk. It's just not good policy.

 

[sphagnum]

Evangelicals don't give a shit about Christianity.

They love Christianity. They just don't care much about Yeshua.

 

[pigeon]

They have parties, but they don't have socialist economic systems, and thus, don't have socialist states. They gave up trying for those a long time ago. Having a far-left party in love with bad ideas doesn't change that.

The answer to the question I posed is, they're called social democrats because their goal is to bring about socialism through incremental democratic progress rather than through vanguard party revolutions to establish a dictatorship with which to enforce socialism.

Socialism is still their ultimate goal! In the vast majority of European countries they have succeeded to some degree in bringing it about incrementally, though it's a back and forth process. I think it would be mostly accurate to say most developed countries are more socialist today than they were in 1900 and less socialist today than they were in 1940.

Notably, most of the ideas of the Democratic Party are socialist in nature, so as far as I can tell your argument is just against everything progressives want to do.

 

[FyreWulff]

You have to wonder that if Assange is ever truly endangered if he will sing like some canary and take down a bunch of shitlords with him.

Wikileaks has massive encrypted volumes named "insurance" they wanted people to torrent. I think the last one was almost a terabyte.

Who knows how good a bluff those are.

 

[B-Dubs]

"Please believe me instead" is the new Trump tactic after they realized shouting fake news at everything doesn't work?

 

[Plinko]

But that would require people to actually understand the principles of Christianity and not embrace the christapitilism that proliferates the US

Simple use of Jesus' own words would spell it out pretty clearly.

No they should say it hurts everyone. The voters we need and religious right do not give a fuck about those people or Christian values. If they did they wouldn't have elected trump

Not entirely true. Trump hoodwinked them into thinking he was a Christian now. Again, present them with Jesus' actual words. Let them make that decision whether those actually matter or not.

Saying it hurts everyone is fine and encouraged, though. That should be the main message, but I want democrats to start using this tactic, too. I have a hardcore right-wing father-in-law, and even he is disgusted by this bill because of that aspect of it.

I wish at least the midwestern dems were smart enough to do this.

I've lived in the Midwest and have been surrounded by these people my entire life, which is probably why this idea appeals to me.

The hardcore Christians won't care as some of them have moved on to Medishare so they don't have to pay for shit they don't want to.

That vast, vast majority have not.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

But maybe I'm biased because a lot of my thirst for social justice came from church experiences when I was younger. I realize that puts me in a big minority though!

Same here. I'm not religious per se anymore, but Christianity is where I discovered liberalism, too.

 

[whyamihere]

Odds of passing tho?

50/50 at this point I would think

This particular bill? Less than 50%. Something eventually passing? Greater than 50%.

 

[Plinko]

I don't think trying to invoke the Social Gospel is a game-changer that will end Trump and Republicanism but seeing people at angry town halls like Tom Cotton's Very Bad No Good Terrible Town Hall reference it when chastising the GOP for being evil snakes makes me think it could be worthwhile on the margins. At least in my personal experience lots of churchgoers are Supply Side Jesus types who will never have a come-to-Jesus moment but not all and some of those might not be always politically engaged.

But maybe I'm biased because a lot of my thirst for social justice came from church experiences when I was younger. I realize that puts me in a big minority though!

And this is all democrats need at this point. I wasn't presenting it as a "this will change everything!" solution--just something that people need to see and, as we have seen at town halls, this seems to drive many.

 

[kirblar]

The answer to the question I posed is, they're called social democrats because their goal is to bring about socialism through incremental democratic progress rather than through vanguard party revolutions to establish a dictatorship with which to enforce socialism.

Socialism is still their ultimate goal! In the vast majority of European countries they have succeeded to some degree in bringing it about incrementally, though it's a back and forth process. I think it would be mostly accurate to say most developed countries are more socialist today than they were in 1900 and less socialist today than they were in 1940.

Notably, most of the ideas of the Democratic Party are socialist in nature, so as far as I can tell your argument is just against everything progressives want to do.

The Democratic party is not arguing for democratic control of the means of production! You can't just point to generic social justice/welfare state issues and declare "THOSE ARE SOCIALIST IDEAS", because they aren't. I'm going to quote wiki on this one because I have no idea what you are talking about:

Social democracy originated as a political ideology that advocated an evolutionary and peaceful transition from capitalism to socialism using established political processes in contrast to the revolutionary approach to transition associated with orthodox Marxism.[6] In the early post-war era in Western Europe, social democratic parties rejected the Stalinist political and economic model then current in the Soviet Union, committing themselves either to an alternate path to socialism or to a compromise between capitalism and socialism.[7] In this period, social democrats embraced a mixed economy based on the predominance of private property, with only a minority of essential utilities and public services under public ownership. As a result, social democracy became associated with Keynesian economics, state interventionism, and the welfare state, while abandoning the prior goal of replacing the capitalist system (factor markets, private property and wage labor)[4] with a qualitatively different socialist economic system.

That stuff they abandoned? That's socialism. Any attempts to implement those systems will inevitably lead to totalitarianism. Abandoning them was a good thing.

I am totally in line with a mixed economy where public utilities are under government control! But that's not a socialist view! It's just a liberal/left view.

I don't think trying to invoke the Social Gospel is a game-changer that will end Trump and Republicanism but seeing people at angry town halls like Tom Cotton's Very Bad No Good Terrible Town Hall reference it when chastising the GOP for being evil snakes makes me think it could be worthwhile on the margins. At least in my personal experience lots of churchgoers are Supply Side Jesus types who will never have a come-to-Jesus moment but not all and some of those might not be always politically engaged.

But maybe I'm biased because a lot of my thirst for social justice came from church experiences when I was younger. I realize that puts me in a big minority though!

My church was awesome, but they were a moderate Presbyterian church that had a very popular series of adult Sunday school classes on other religions. I've heard nightmare stories this year about one of the big evangelical churches in the area (from HS friends), how it was one of those trying to weaponize them as teenagers.

 

[Officerrob]

Odds of passing tho?

50/50 at this point I would think

Most disagree with me, but I'm like 95% sure this will pass. Never underestimate Republicans ability to fall in line to back something awful

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Most disagree with me, but I'm like 95% sure this will pass. Never underestimate Republicans ability to fall in line and back something awful

Republicans might put on a show once in awhile, but they always fall in line. 100% chance this is law.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Most disagree with me, but I'm like 95% sure this will pass. Never underestimate Republicans ability to fall in line to back something awful

The hope is that a subset won't find it awful enough.

 

[Pandora012]

It's amusing and sad how Spicer is failing to answer the HBCU question.

 

[Vixdean]

Would it be true to say that this is the first time a law was passed which explicitly reduced access to health insurance?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Republicans might put on a show once in awhile, but they always fall in line. 100% chance this is law.

So where are they getting half a dozen Democrats to go along with them from?

 

[kirblar]

Would it be true to say that this is the first time a law was passed which explicitly reduced access to health insurance?

This law won't pass. This has revolt from everyone.

There are 3 sets of stakeholders- Insurance companies, providers, consumers- and they have the latter two staunchly against this. (Insurance companies are more middling: http://www.businessinsider.com/insu...e-shield-raise-objections-to-trumpcare-2017-3 )

 

[Diablos]

Ryan knows if they don't get this passed in the next few weeks, Republicans are going to go home to angry town halls again during the April recess, which will lead to more cold feet. Ryan also really wants to knock out tax reform this year before his caucus begins turning their attention to the midterms, and can't do the tax reform package he wants until healthcare is squared away first.

Exactly. This is why I think one way or another it passes. This watered down joke of a bill paves the way for their tax agenda. And everyone in the GOP is foaming at the mouth over passing that.

As for GOP Senators not backing the bill, they do this shit all the time. Doesn't matter if it's confirming a nominee or legislation. They always come around after they put on a show. I think it's a head fake to persuade opponents to not be as vigilant in opposing someone or something.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Exactly. This is why I think one way or another it passes. This watered down joke of a bill paves the way for their tax agenda. And everyone in the GOP is foaming at the mouth over passing that.

As for GOP Senators not backing the bill, they do this shit all the time. Doesn't matter if it's confirming a nominee or legislation. They always come around after they put on a show. I think it's a head fake to persuade opponents to not be as vigilant in opposing someone or something.

If 100% of Republicans vote for this bill it doesn't pass, so who cares if they vote in lock step.

They can't push the bill as it is now through reconciliation.