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PoliGAF 2017 |OT2| Well, maybe McMaster isn't a traitor.

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B

Blader

Member
Any middle-aged Republican today was a teenager or in their early 20s when Reagan was president. They probably heard "trickle down" at an impressionable age and it's stuck into their mindsets ever since.
 
D

daedalius

Member
Plinko said:
The "prosperity gospel" that has destroyed Christianity in this country.
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I had to explain what this was to a friend of mine, apparently he pays very little attention to politics other than hating trump.

Also how does fucking Paul Ryan not understand how insurance works?? What an asinine thing to say about the healthy paying for the sick, like fucking what???
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
daedalius said:
I had to explain what this was to a friend of mine, apparently he pays very little attention to politics other than hating trump.

Also how does fucking Paul Ryan not understand how insurance works?? What an asinine thing to say about the healthy paying for the sick, like fucking what???
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Ryan knows how it works. He just wanted to convince the far right yokels watching that press conference that his idea is actually correct.
 
broz0rs

broz0rs

Member
The main reason why churches align with Republicans is because religious centers pay zero federal and state taxes. Reverends also get a massive deductions in their personal income taxes so they align with conservative interests.
 
C

Carpe Libertatem

Member
broz0rs said:
The main reason why churches align with Republicans is because religious centers pay zero federal and state taxes. Reverends also get a massive deductions in their personal income taxes so they align with conservative interests.
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That and the whole abortion and gay thing.

thanks again Reagan!
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
daedalius said:
I had to explain what this was to a friend of mine, apparently he pays very little attention to politics other than hating trump.

Also how does fucking Paul Ryan not understand how insurance works?? What an asinine thing to say about the healthy paying for the sick, like fucking what???
Click to expand...

The basest of the GOP base probably don't know how it works.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Tom Perez and Keith Elison debuted a new weekly internet show, which seems like mostly just a typical political talk show with internet questions, but more of an aim at informing and inspiring democrat grassroots. This is one of the things Keith Elison was promising with his DNC chair campaign.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-uYt6D9414

For this first one there's nothing new for anyone that paid any attention to the DNC election and mic levels are really off, but looking forward to see where this goes.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Blader said:
Healthcare -> tax reform -> infrastructure

But, for some reason, they've repeatedly boxed themselves into saying that it MUST be done in this order.
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Because they want to use budget reconciliation to do it, they have to do it specifically in that order if they want to get all 3, IIRC.

Plinko said:
I disagree. They campaigned on it. They guaranteed it would happen. That plays a major role here.
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They can propose it, the parliamentarian says it isn't doable through budget reconciliation, Dems vote against it, GOP says "look, we tried, but we don't have enough votes", and tries to pin it on the Dem Senators in red states. Then they move on to making rich people richer.
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
Cybit said:
Because they want to use budget reconciliation to do it, they have to do it specifically in that order if they want to get all 3, IIRC.



They can propose it, the parliamentarian says it isn't doable through budget reconciliation, Dems vote against it, GOP says "look, we tried, but we don't have enough votes", and tries to pin it on the Dem Senators in red states. Then they move on to making rich people richer.
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Some of the red state Democrats are from Medicaid expansion states, ND, WV, MT, IN. McCaskill is the only exception of the Romney Five here.
 
S

ShadowSwordmaster

Banned
thepotatoman said:
Tom Perez and Keith Elison debuted a new weekly internet show, which seems like mostly just a typical political talk show with internet questions, but more of an aim at informing and inspiring democrat grassroots. This is one of the things Keith Elison was promising with his DNC chair campaign.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-uYt6D9414

For this first one there's nothing new for anyone that paid any attention to the DNC election and mic levels are really off, but looking forward to see where this goes.
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It was live on facebook yesterday.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
Holmes said:
Yeah. I would say he's a policy wonk. It's just not good policy.
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Everyone's a wonk on the bad policy. I could write a 200 page paper on why harnessing unicorn farts for power generation would save the Rust Belt and negate all global greenhouse gas emissions, but that doesn't make man actual policy wonk because that's not real workable policy.

Paul Ryan is an idiot who has somehow convinced the entire Washington establishment that he's a genius, or at least to pretend that he is in public.

thepotatoman said:
Tom Perez and Keith Elison debuted a new weekly internet show, which seems like mostly just a typical political talk show with internet questions, but more of an aim at informing and inspiring democrat grassroots. This is one of the things Keith Elison was promising with his DNC chair campaign.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-uYt6D9414

For this first one there's nothing new for anyone that paid any attention to the DNC election and mic levels are really off, but looking forward to see where this goes.
Click to expand...

Nice. Definitely a good step to take, assuming they iron out the technical stuff.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Cybit said:
Because they want to use budget reconciliation to do it, they have to do it specifically in that order if they want to get all 3, IIRC.



They can propose it, the parliamentarian says it isn't doable through budget reconciliation, Dems vote against it, GOP says "look, we tried, but we don't have enough votes", and tries to pin it on the Dem Senators in red states. Then they move on to making rich people richer.
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Meh, if all was fair then Democrats shouldn't feel any heat for obstructionism. Republicans blocked (or attempted to in the first two years) every single initiative Obama proposed and never suffered for it at the polls.

2012 was the only decent federal election year Dems had since Obama's election and all our gains consisted of was some low-hanging fruit in the House, Scott Brown (fluke GOP incumbent in a deep blue state), Richard Mourdock ("hurrr let me tell you about abortion") and winning as an "Independent" in a blue state (Maine).
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
whyamihere said:
I mean, legitimately, they can't pass this bill if the parliamentarian rules against using budget reconciliation for aspects of the bill (which is extremely likely), and they're going to need to find 60 votes to pass this bill as a whole. I don't see them overruling the parliamentarian, so I don't see where they get the 60 votes for this bill.

I actually don't even know if they're going to get 50 votes here because of the Medicaid provisions. Like, I expect that the hard-right like Lee and Paul will fall in line, but the Medicaid provisions are going to be huge sticking points with those in the caucus that actually had states that passed Medicaid. And defunding Planned Parenthood is already a non-starter for Collins and Murkowski.

I think that something will pass, for sure. I do not think it will be this House bill.



I mean, no, the whole point of them using budget reconciliation is explicitly to not do this.
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From what I've been reading, I'd agree with that.

Apparently the 2015 budget reconciliation repeal had the parliamentarian rule against the removal of the medicare IPAB and so McConnel simply amended it with a replacement that doesn't include it, and it got to Obama's desk that way. It does seem pretty likely something similar could happen here.

The hail mary is getting Trump and Pence to go with circumventing senate rules, which would put McConnell and other republican senators in a pretty tight spot to vote against it. Only with Trump is a situation like that believable.

Either way, they're going to end up with a bill that will be passable without any Democrat votes, so I really would not rely on the filibuster too much here.
 
C

Carpe Libertatem

Member
Aaron Strife said:
Meh, if all was fair then Democrats shouldn't feel any heat for obstructionism. Republicans blocked (or attempted to in the first two years) every single initiative Obama proposed and never suffered for it at the polls.

2012 was the only decent federal election year Dems had since Obama's election and all our gains consisted of was some low-hanging fruit in the House, Scott Brown (fluke GOP incumbent in a deep blue state), Richard Mourdock ("hurrr let me tell you about abortion") and winning as an "Independent" in a blue state (Maine).
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How can you forget about Queen of North Dakota Heidi Heitkamp?
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
thepotatoman said:
From what I've been reading, I'd agree with that.

Apparently the 2015 budget reconciliation repeal had the parliamentarian rule against the removal of the medicare IPAB and so McConnel simply amended it with a replacement that doesn't include it, and it got to Obama's desk that way. It does seem pretty likely something similar could happen here.

The hail mary is getting Trump and Pence to go with circumventing senate rules, which would put McConnell and other republican senators in a pretty tight spot to vote against it. Only with Trump is a situation like that believable.

Either way, they're going to end up with a bill that will be passable without any Democrat votes, so I really would not rely on the filibuster too much here.
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(Btw, I don't know if you saw, but I totally misread the Vox article and you were correct and I'm sorry)

I also looked back up what happened -- Cruz said to override the parliamentarian, but Conryn shot him down and said that's like firing a judge. They just took those provisions out. I imagine that's what'll happen here. Lucky for us, the most ergrigious stuff is the most reconciliation-suspect aspect of the legislation. I just think if they were going to try to get around the parliamentarian, they wouldn't be using reconciliation anyway. They'd just go nuclear.

This is why Trump saying he'll campaign in red state Democrats's states is so weird. You don't need them! Go to Maine!

Bonen no Max'd said:
That was a hold, not a gain.
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Yup. Still was insanely impressive as a non-incumbent though.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
I noted this to Barro and terrifying avatar guy, but overriding the parliamentarian is not particularly different from just going nuclear on the filibuster. The outcome is still that anything you want to pass with 51 votes can be passed with 51 votes, just the method then differs.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
pigeon said:
I noted this to Barro and terrifying avatar guy, but overriding the parliamentarian is not particularly different from just going nuclear on the filibuster. The outcome is still that anything you want to pass with 51 votes can be passed with 51 votes, just the method then differs.
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Which is why only Ted Cruz and freedom caucus types are really advocating for it.

Carpe Libertatem said:
We gained Heidi Heitkamp tho ;)
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QUEEN OF THE NORTH!
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
Bonen no Max'd said:
I wasn't really paying attention to anything other than the presidency back then, what did she do to outrun Obama by so much?
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Well, she's been elected statewide before and only lost a governor's race in like 00 or 02 because she got breast cancer and almost dropped out, she it's not like she was unknown to the state. Basically the best recruit of 2012, kind of like the Kander of that year.

She basically ran a bunch of really good ads stressing her bipartisanship, commitment to farmers, and North Dakotan roots. Also the problem that Berg (who was a bad candidate) kept having was that Heidi always had high favorables. They even did an ad near the end that was basically "you might like Heidi Heitkamp, but" and then liberal scare quotes.

Actually watching her campaign ads are pretty interesting. The usual "I'm bipartisan!!" stuff is kind of tired, but she talks a lot about fairness and North Dakotan values and it's a pretty clever way to frame the Democratic message for a deep red state that still had Midwestern components to it.

Also Berg kind of sucked, which helped. But he should've won.

Diablos said:
VP makes the rules regarding the Parliamentarian, right? Can't Pence just shake things up?
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No. McConnell could, but he probably won't. They'll just remove the items again. Again, we went through this in 2015. Why wouldn't they just drop the pretense if they were going to ignore the parliamentarian? And there are aspects of this bill explicitly crafted to get through reconciliation because they know that's their only shot. They just would ram through a different bill if they could.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
whyamihere said:
(Btw, I don't know if you saw, but I totally misread the Vox article and you were correct and I'm sorry)

I also looked back up what happened -- Cruz said to override the parliamentarian, but Conryn shot him down and said that's like firing a judge. They just took those provisions out. I imagine that's what'll happen here. Lucky for us, the most ergrigious stuff is the most reconciliation-suspect aspect of the legislation. I just think if they were going to try to get around the parliamentarian, they wouldn't be using reconciliation anyway. They'd just go nuclear.

This is why Trump saying he'll campaign in red state Democrats's states is so weird. You don't need them! Go to Maine!



Yup. Still was insanely impressive as a non-incumbent though.
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No worries. That stuff happens.

I only wonder what Trump does when people like cruz come to him and say that Pence could be the one to go nuclear, or what Pence does if Trump tells him to do it.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Bonen no Max'd said:
I wasn't really paying attention to anything other than the presidency back then, what did she do to outrun Obama by so much?
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Her opponent was kind of a wiener and Heidi was really well-liked. I think she used to be the attorney general or something?

Even then she still won by a hair. On election night I was expecting us to lose ND but gain NV. I'm somewhat ok with the trade-off because winning both next year is insanely easier with a D incumbent in ND, but there's no denying Sen. Berkeley would have been far more liberal.

Also she sits on an American flag lawn chair:

images


Now if that's not a true patriot I don't know what is.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Aaron Strife said:
Her opponent was kind of a wiener and Heidi was really well-liked. I think she used to be the attorney general or something?

Even then she still won by a hair. On election night I was expecting us to lose ND but gain NV. I'm somewhat ok with the trade-off because winning both next year is insanely easier with a D incumbent in ND, but there's no denying Sen. Berkeley would have been far more liberal.
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Yglesias pointed out something important- the moderate Ds who made passing Obama a nightmare the first time? They're all gone.

If we get control, this is not going to be a bill that's squeaking by.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
thepotatoman said:
No worries. That stuff happens.

I only wonder what Trump does when people like cruz come to him and say that Pence could be the one to go nuclear, or what Pence does if Trump tells him to do it.
Click to expand...

But Ryan keeps saying they specifically crafted this bill to get through reconciliation. If they were going to override the parliamentarian, I don't see why they'd go through the pretense.

I also think this is one of those instances where Trump having no ties to Congress hurts him. The senate already doesn't like this bill and I don't see them overriding the parliamentarian for it. No idea about Pence though.

EDIT: I mean this is the second best picture of Heidi after flag chair

ap_Heidi_Heitkamp_senate_race_close_thg_121115_mn.jpg
 
TheLaughingStock

TheLaughingStock

Member
Plinko said:
Why does the GOP push hard for tax cuts for only the rich? Is it campaign contribution related?
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The GOP would destroy Democrats if they shifted this norm just a little bit. I'll never understand why the bias towards rich folks is so strong given where things stand right now. We're not living in the 50s and 60s when you could make a case under say Eisenhower.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
whyamihere said:
But Ryan keeps saying they specifically crafted this bill to get through reconciliation. If they were going to override the parliamentarian, I don't see why they'd go through the pretense.

I also think this is one of those instances where Trump having no ties to Congress hurts him. The senate already doesn't like this bill and I don't see them overriding the parliamentarian for it. No idea about Pence though.
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Yeah, most likely is a boring amendment. It's just a fun weird thing to think about, given that those meetings with trump have actually taken place according to politico.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/obamacare-conservatives-senate-rules-235896
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
thepotatoman said:
Yeah, most likely is a boring amendment. It's just a fun weird thing to think about, given that those meetings with trump have actually taken place according to politico.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/obamacare-conservatives-senate-rules-235896
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I don't think it really mtters what Trump says about it or what Ted Cruz wants. I believe you need 50 or 51 votes to accept Pence's overriding of the parliamentarian, which I don't think they'd get. Everyone's not really on board with this bill anyways.

I think something will pass because I think the desire to repeal Obamacare is too great. I do not think it will be exactly be the House bill.
 
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