Support NeoGAF

[Valhelm]

He left office in 1980. Something else really important happening in 1980 that completely transformed US politics!

Politics at a national level looks very, very similar nationwide. Rural areas in Vermont look like rural areas in Montana look like rural areas in KY, as far as voting patterns go. (Same w/ cities.)

The biggest effect of Reagan was that Democrats jolted to the right to catch up. I don't think somebody like Edwin Edwards could have run after Reagan left office, because that kind of advocacy for the poor was no longer in the Democrats' playbook. Remember that Bill Clinton spent part of his presidency gutting welfare on the advice of a white supremacist.

Policies that specifically target working class voters, irrespective of race, could do a lot to flip Southern seats in congress, particularly in poorer districts with substantial minority populations.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

The biggest effect of Reagan was that Democrats jolted to the right to catch up. I don't think somebody like Edwin Edwards could have run after Reagan left office, because that kind of advocacy for the poor was no longer in the Democrats' playbook. Remember that Bill Clinton spent part of his presidency gutting welfare on the advice of a white supremacist.

Policies that specifically target working class voters, irrespective of race, could do a lot to flip Southern seats in congress, particularly in poorer districts with substantial minority populations.

He did. winning in 1983 and 1991 and losing in 2014.

What changed? Southern voters stopped voting for Democratic candidates in 1994.

 

[chadskin]

Preet Bharara fired:

I did not resign. Moments ago I was fired. Being the US Attorney in SDNY will forever be the greatest honor of my professional life.

https://twitter.com/preetbharara/status/840645773985492992

 

[kirblar]

The biggest effect of Reagan was that Democrats jolted to the right to catch up. I don't think somebody like Edwin Edwards could have run after Reagan left office, because that kind of advocacy for the poor was no longer in the Democrats' playbook. Remember that Bill Clinton spent part of his presidency gutting welfare on the advice of a white supremacist.

Policies that specifically target working class voters, irrespective of race, could do a lot to flip Southern seats in congress, particularly in poorer districts with substantial minority populations.

No. It won't. Why? Because Democrats already have these policies!

The instant they see non-white people competing with them or catching up to them, they freak out! They do not want equality on Animal Farm, they want to be the farmers.

The only way you can appeal to them on economics is by actively throwing minorities under the bus in the process, and that's a concession we're not willing to make on a national level.

 

[pigeon]

Right. So letting these places fester and build militant resentment is the worst course of action possible.

I mean, it's unclear to me that that would be worse than funneling a bunch of cash directly to communities that are full of white supremacists. Welfare for terrorists sounds like a bad plan to me!

 

[Valhelm]

I mean, it's unclear to me that that would be worse than funneling a bunch of cash directly to communities that are full of white supremacists. Welfare for terrorists sounds like a bad plan to me!

There are white supremacists everywhere, Pigeon. Donald Trump wasn't born in rural Mississippi.

Meaningful support to these areas by Democrats would greatly weaken the hold of right-wing ideologies on these places. Remember that nearly all hard-right Republican racists, like Jeff Sessions, come from Southern backgrounds of privilege. The survival of white supremacist ideals is intimately connected to their own empowerment.

No. It won't. Why? Because Democrats already have these policies!

The instant they see non-white people competing with them or catching up to them, they freak out! They do not want equality on Animal Farm, they want to be the farmers.

The only way you can appeal to them on economics is by actively throwing minorities under the bus in the process, and that's a concession we're not willing to make on a national level.

Mainline Democrats no longer advocate the same pro-working class policies that they did prior to Reagan. Just look at Bill Clinton's betrayal of the welfare state.

There's a history of Democrats being able to succeed in these places through these policies without needing to screw over people of color. But authentic economic progressivism is not something Democrats want to embrace, even in local Southern races that they are going to lose even without taking such a risk.

 

[kirblar]

There are white supremacists everywhere, Pigeon. Donald Trump wasn't born in rural Mississippi.

Meaningful support to these areas by Democrats would greatly weaken the hold of right-wing ideologies on these places. Remember that nearly all hard-right Republican racists, like Jeff Sessions, come from Southern backgrounds of privilege. The survival of white supremacist ideals directly empowers them.

There are far far more of them in rural areas. This is indisputable.

 

[pigeon]

There are white supremacists everywhere, Pigeon. Donald Trump wasn't born in rural Mississippi.

Sure, but there are a lot more of them in rural white communities, because they contain rural white people. Exposure to people of color reduces racist thoughts.

Meaningful support to these areas by Democrats would greatly weaken the hold of right-wing ideologies on these places.

There seems to be no evidence of this. It's a fantasy. Here is some actual evidence as to what reduces white supremacy: exposure to people of color.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11218-011-9161-3
https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.96.5.1890

But people of color don't want to move to rural white neighborhoods filled with white supremacists for obvious reasons. So I think there's a compelling argument that white ethnic enclaves should be broken up and desegregated!

 

[Bishman]

A profile on Joe Manchin...

Manchin in the Middle: Joe Manchin is either a moderate role model for a party that’s lost its way, or a doomed species from a less partisan era. Soon we’ll know which.



This - the second full paragraph - is where I stopped reading, because I'm sure it'd be informative as hell to read, but it's also a pretty sickening start to the story.

After reading this, I am not a fan of Manchin but rather keep him than lose the seat to the Republican. I am surprised he didn't get along with Obama.

 

[Valhelm]

There seems to be no evidence of this. It's a fantasy. Here is some actual evidence as to what reduces white supremacy: exposure to people of color.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11218-011-9161-3
https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.96.5.1890

But people of color don't want to move to rural white neighborhoods filled with white supremacists for obvious reasons. So I think there's a compelling argument that white ethnic enclaves should be broken up and desegregated!

Those examples deal with middle class suburban white kids, whose communities are a lot more homogeneous than working class communities in the South. Southern states tend to be the blackest in America. And also the most integrated! Yet racism is still very prevalent in these places. Contact alone does not lead to racial enlightenment in all cases.

Social democratic policies have a history of succeeding in the South. And many contemporary Southern voters support them! The election of progressive democrats in the South isn't just possible, but would meaningfully reduce the hold of white supremacy in the region. Throwing out race-baiting politicians would end most political pressures encouraging racism.

 

[pigeon]

The election of progressive democrats in the South isn't just possible, but would meaningfully reduce the hold of white supremacy in the region. Throwing out race-baiting politicians would end most political pressures encouraging racism.

This paragraph really clearly demonstrates that you are living in a fantasy world. Racism isn't encouraged because of political pressure, racism is literally the cornerstone on which the American South was built. Can you think of any reasons why exposure to African-Americans does not seem to reduce racism in the South?

 

[Emerson]

That should have been your viewpoint before the article too. There is literally zero logical argument for fighting to oust Manchin. It's a moronic idea. You will not get a better Democrat, you'll sabotage the one we've got and possibly get us a Republican instead.

 

[pigeon]

That should have been your viewpoint before the article too. There is literally zero logical argument for fighting to oust Manchin. It's a moronic idea. You will not get a better Democrat, you'll sabotage the one we've got and possibly get us a Republican instead.

The argument is clear -- Democrats cannot claim to be mounting a principled resistance to the senators who voted to confirm a white supremacist as Attorney General if they only resist the Republicans who did it and leave the Democrat alone.

 

[Emerson]

The argument is clear -- Democrats cannot claim to be mounting a principled resistance to the senators who voted to confirm a white supremacist as Attorney General if they only resist the Republicans who did it and leave the Democrat alone.

Sure they can. It's called fucking pragmatism. Or go ahead and lose the WV Democratic senator and put yourself down another seat in the Senate. At least with Manchin we can count on him when we truly need his vote.

Principles haven't gotten us shit. It's time to be smart. Sabotaging Manchin ain't smart. Period.

 

[thepotatoman]

cities outside the coasts are mostly dying too

Where are you getting that?

Of the 20 biggest metropolitan areas, Houston, Austin, and Denver are the 3 fastest growing.

San Antonio, Dallas, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, Oklahoma City, Columbus, Indianapolis, Grand Rapids, and Minneapolis are other examples of 1 million population or greater metropolitan areas that are growing much faster than LA, New York, Philadelphia, or Boston.

Just because Detroit, Chicago, and Cleveland are "dying" doesn't mean that non-coastal cities in general are dying.

 

[Valhelm]

This paragraph really clearly demonstrates that you are living in a fantasy world. Racism isn't encouraged because of political pressure, racism is literally the cornerstone on which the American South was built. Can you think of any reasons why exposure to African-Americans does not seem to reduce racism in the South?

White supremacy among poor southern whites has always been a response to top-down pressures, from the moment the first Virginia slaveholder told his white field-hands that they would help him keep his slaves in line or they would love their jobs. After slavery was abolished, disempowered Southern landholders tapped into white resentment of black peoples' newfound equality. Surely you won't disagree that there's a long history of racism being drummed up to secure votes. This was codified by the GOP's Southern Strategy, which inflamed opposition to the Civil Rights Movement and helped perpetuate the existence of white supremacy.

The election of progressive Democrats would not only end such top-down pressures, but would allow for meaningful policymaking to promote equitable race relations, something the South is presently lacking.

What alternative do you propose?

 

[pigeon]

Sure they can. It's called fucking pragmatism.

That's why I used the word "principled." Pragmatism is dead, Nazis killed it.

Or go ahead and lose the WV Democratic senator and put yourself down another seat in the Senate. At least with Manchin we can count on him when we truly need his vote.

Unless that vote is to oppose white supremacy in which case we clearly can't, but hey, priorities.

Also, if Manchin is such a great fit for West Virginia, why would he lose his primary? Mounting a primary against a guy who's very likely to win the primary sounds basically free? And allows us to maintain some moral principles.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I'm sure yelling NAZI and WHITE SUPREMACIST all day will help usher in the great Dem waves of 2018 and 2020.

 

[pigeon]

White supremacy among poor southern whites has always been a response to top-down pressures, from the moment the first Virginia slaveholder told his white field-hands that they would help him keep his slaves in line or they would love their jobs. After slavery was abolished, disempowered Southern landholders tapped into white resentment of black peoples' newfound equality. Surely you won't disagree that there's a long history of racism being drummed up to secure votes. This was codified by the GOP's Southern Strategy, which inflamed opposition to the Civil Rights Movement and helped perpetuate the existence of white supremacy.

Once again, white people will say and do anything to absolve other white people of their support for white supremacy.

What alternative do you propose?

In terms of Democratic strategy, I believe we should be mounting a social and economic justice campaign. I just don't think we should convince ourselves that helping white supremacists with their healthcare is going to make them not white supremacist. We actually have pretty strong evidence already that it will not.

In terms of eliminating white supremacy, as I already posted, if you actually want to make rural white communities less hotbeds of racism they need to be desegregated or amalgamated. I don't see how we as a society benefit from allowing small isolated hate groups to fester all over the country.

 

[pigeon]

I'm sure yelling NAZI and WHITE SUPREMACIST all day will help usher in the great Dem waves of 2018 and 2020.

Hey man, if your focus right now is less on preventing white supremacists from taking over America and more on winning elections for the Democratic Party by accepting and subsidizing white supremacy, then we can just agree to disagree.

 

[metalslimer]

Forced school integration would be a great way of killing two birds with one stone. Unfortunately under Devos we will likely see even more white flight from the public school system

 

[Valhelm]

Once again, white people will say and do anything to absolve other white people of their support for white supremacy.



In terms of Democratic strategy, I believe we should be mounting a social and economic justice campaign. I just don't think we should convince ourselves that helping white supremacists with their healthcare is going to make them not white supremacist. We actually have pretty strong evidence already that it will not.

In terms of eliminating white supremacy, as I already posted, if you actually want to make rural white communities less hotbeds of racism they need to be desegregated or amalgamated. I don't see how we as a society benefit from allowing small isolated hate groups to fester all over the country.

Pigeon, the South is already pretty desegregated. It's still very racist. But not every Southern person is a virulent white supremacist. A substantial amount of Southern whites voted against Trump, and they shouldn't have to suffer for the bigotry of their neighbors.

Top-down efforts would be a lot more effective at promoting racial acceptance than forcible demographic change, which would be an expensive and unprecedented policy that could potentially exacerbate racism.

I'm sure yelling NAZI and WHITE SUPREMACIST all day will help usher in the great Dem waves of 2018 and 2020.

Who said we can't condemn white supremacy while also offering meaningful policy proposals?

 

[pigeon]

Pigeon, the South is already pretty desegregated. It's still very racist. But not every Southern person is a virulent white supremacist. A substantial amount of Southern whites voted against Trump, and they shouldn't have to suffer for the bigotry of their neighbors.

Top-down efforts would be a lot more effective at promoting racial acceptance than forcible demographic change, which would be an expensive and unprecedented policy that could potentially exacerbate racism.

Post your studies proving it.

Also, to be clear, it's not unprecedented -- forcible demographic change is yet another cornerstone of American policy.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Valhelm, your evidence for progressivism working historically in the South is based on two people: Huey Long and Edwin Edwards. Democrats should strive to be neither.

Long was a demagogue and in modern day would be the closest thing to a Democratic Trump as possible. Edwards was incredibly corrupt and spent years in federal prison for racketeering, while not making any substantial progress in Louisiana since the state was still towards the bottom for things like teacher pay, labor membership, and general education, while being towards the top for things like high school dropout rate and teen pregnancy.

Edwards also lost by 25 points in 2014, so we have pretty solid, recent data about how running as an "Edwin Edwards-like" candidate goes. You can also look at current governor John Bel Edwards who ran on similar populism but certainly not as a progressive.

 

[pigeon]

To be clear, I am not really advocating for forcible resettlement as a realistic policy goal. I just object strongly to the idea that we should give white supremacists money to make them less racist because there seems to be no evidence that it works, so I view it as primarily a backdoor attempt for people who don't want to think about racial justice to coopt the topic and use it to advocate for their favorite policies. It's approximately the same as the people who argued apparently genuinely that socialism would just make racism go away.

I tentatively believe that most Americans aren't really white supremacists, but many of them deceived themselves into voting for one. Hopefully they will feel pretty bad about it in the future. Otherwise it's not clear to me that people of color can live safely in this country.

 

[Valhelm]

To be clear, I am not really advocating for forcible resettlement as a realistic policy goal. I just object strongly to the idea that we should give white supremacists money to make them less racist because there seems to be no evidence that it works, so I view it as primarily a backdoor attempt for people who don't want to think about racial justice to coopt the topic and use it to advocate for their favorite policies. It's approximately the same as the people who argued apparently genuinely that socialism would just make racism go away.

I tentatively believe that most Americans aren't really white supremacists, but many of them deceived themselves into voting for one. Hopefully they will feel pretty bad about it in the future. Otherwise it's not clear to me that people of color can live safely in this country.

Reducing poverty will not necessarily reduce racism, but it will build faith in the Democratic party and undermine the efforts of racist politicians. It would also make the lives of a lot of people less miserable. Many of these people are not racist. A lot of them aren't even white. Because social democratic policies are popular, even in the South, Democrats who run to the left will probably be more successful than the current cadre, allowing for proactive anti-racist solutions to be put forward.

Post your studies proving it.

Also, to be clear, it's not unprecedented -- forcible demographic change is yet another cornerstone of American policy.

Proactive efforts to reduce racism are more effective than contact alone. I'm not sure how you could disagree with this.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3603687/

http://www.tolerance.org/supplement/strategies-reducing-racial-and-ethnic-prejudice-essential-pr

http://www.omi.wa.gov.au/resources/clearinghouse/antiracism_what_works.pdf

It seems that the most effective way to do this is through interactive education programs in schools and the workplace. This can't happen if Republicans or collaborationist Democrats a la Manchin continue to control the South.

 

[pigeon]

Proactive efforts to reduce racism are more effective than contact alone. I'm not sure how you could disagree with this.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3603687/

http://www.tolerance.org/supplement/strategies-reducing-racial-and-ethnic-prejudice-essential-pr

http://www.omi.wa.gov.au/resources/clearinghouse/antiracism_what_works.pdf

It seems that the most effective way to do this is through interactive education programs in schools and the workplace. This can't happen if Republicans or collaborationist Democrats a la Manchin continue to control the South.

...okay? I feel like...you have moved to support my argument? We should run Democrats who actively campaign on racial justice and who then institute racial justice policies when elected. That...seems fine? Seems pretty far from "let's send a bunch of money to racist white people and maybe they will become less racist," which is where you started out. But hey, I'm glad we could come to an agreement!

 

[kirblar]

The issue w/ Manchin is that WV is so far in the weeds that he is literally the best we can do. Principles are great in a president/national campaign, but part of making "50-state" work is adjusting at the state/local level in order to get access to power. You can't do anything if you can't get elected. (The complaints about Manchin aren't coming from within WV)

 

[Valhelm]

...okay? I feel like...you have moved to support my argument? We should run Democrats who actively campaign on racial justice and who then institute racial justice policies when elected. That...seems fine? Seems pretty far from "let's send a bunch of money to racist white people and maybe they will become less racist," which is where you started out. But hey, I'm glad we could come to an agreement!

Pigeon, there's no way to implement anti-racist policies without Southern Democrats taking power.

A turn to the left is the only way to get Southern Democrats elected. Running on anti-racism alone will unfortunately not appeal to enough Southern whites. It needs to be paired with social democracy.

 

[kirblar]

Pigeon, there's no way to implement these policies without Southern Democrats taking power.

A turn to the left is the only way to do this.

You do know why the word "Dixiecrat" exists, right?

 

[pigeon]

Pigeon, there's no way to implement anti-racist policies without Southern Democrats taking power.

A turn to the left is the only way to get Southern Democrats elected.

That's what I said? They should advocate aggressively for racial justice. Is that not the left in your view?

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I wonder if we will see an increase in people running for state/local levels that are not part of the Republicans or Democratic parties.

 

[Grexeno]

I wonder if we will see an increase in people running for state/local levels that are not part of the Republicans or Democratic parties.

If you mean just plain Independent candidates, maybe.

 

[jack_package_200]

I wonder if we will see an increase in people running for state/local levels that are not part of the Republicans or Democratic parties.

I can see that.

I don't see them winning but I can see them running.

 

[thepotatoman]

Valhelm, your evidence for progressivism working historically in the South is based on two people: Huey Long and Edwin Edwards. Democrats should strive to be neither.

Long was a demagogue and in modern day would be the closest thing to a Democratic Trump as possible. Edwards was incredibly corrupt and spent years in federal prison for racketeering, while not making any substantial progress in Louisiana since the state was still towards the bottom for things like teacher pay, labor membership, and general education, while being towards the top for things like high school dropout rate and teen pregnancy.

Edwards also lost by 25 points in 2014, so we have pretty solid, recent data about how running as an "Edwin Edwards-like" candidate goes. You can also look at current governor John Bel Edwards who ran on similar populism but certainly not as a progressive.

Well, the previous democrat lost to the same guy in the same district by 31 points in 2010, so Edwin Edwards appears to have at least been an improvement.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

If you mean just plain Independent candidates, maybe.

Pretty much. The reason that I ask is the People Power thing that ACLU is doing today and if that will translate in people going for those local and state level positions.

 

[kirblar]

The only way those Southern States get reforms on that axis is by the federal government ramming it down their throats. Why do you think they're always crying about "States Rights" so much?

 

[NeoXChaos]

White supremacy among poor southern whites has always been a response to top-down pressures, from the moment the first Virginia slaveholder told his white field-hands that they would help him keep his slaves in line or they would love their jobs. After slavery was abolished, disempowered Southern landholders tapped into white resentment of black peoples' newfound equality. Surely you won't disagree that there's a long history of racism being drummed up to secure votes. This was codified by the GOP's Southern Strategy, which inflamed opposition to the Civil Rights Movement and helped perpetuate the existence of white supremacy.

The election of progressive Democrats would not only end such top-down pressures, but would allow for meaningful policymaking to promote equitable race relations, something the South is presently lacking.

What alternative do you propose?

so does your plan tackle the flyover states because they too harbor the same resistance. They are historically less diverse than the South and are ancestrally Republican compared to the D-->R Southern Shift.

I can't remember a time when the South was not conservative.

 

[Valhelm]

That's what I said? They should advocate aggressively for racial justice. Is that not the left in your view?

Campaigning on race alone won't win elections. The Democrats need a different strategy if they want to be competitive in the South.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

JBE knows how to win in the South.

(support white supremacy and stuff for the poor)

 

[pigeon]

Campaigning on race alone won't win elections. The Democrats need a different strategy if they want to be competitive in the South.

I've never advocated for campaigning on race alone. I already said in this conversation we need a platform focused on both racial and economic justice!

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Well, the previous democrat lost to the same guy in the same district by 31 points in 2010, so Edwin Edwards appears to have at least been an improvement.

It wasn't the same guy. Bill Cassidy was the incumbent in 2010 and ran for Senate in 2014 so he wasn't running. It was an open seat, except Edwards has name recognition.

 

[pigeon]

Sometimes I get the feeling that people enter into these arguments, not with me, but with a hypothetical neoliberal version of me, and forget that I am actually a socialist and have been arguing for a basic income since well before 2016 -- or, similarly, that I spent much of last year arguing over the question of whether it is ever a good idea to engage in military intervention anywhere. I'm not your dad who voted for W! If you want to argue with him, just call him up.

As hard as it may be to believe, I'm arguing over these issues for the same reason I opposed Bernie Sanders -- I think they're ignorant of how socialism could actually work in America, and they harm the cause of justice as a result. Most specifically, I think they fundamentally fail to grapple with the reality that a large percentage of white Americans consistently vote against social programs, for decades now, because they don't want the benefits to accrue to people of color. Until you internalize that truth, your attempts to bring about economic justice will fail, or will be perverted to support institutionalized racism.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Steve Bannon is going to just end up be a Breaking Bad Nazis guy.

https://mobile.twitter.com/markberman/status/840662646403805184?p=v

 

[whyamihere]

Pretty sure John Bel Edwards ran exclusively on a platform of Prostitutes Over Patriots Was Bad.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Laughing over here at "many white people in Mississippi aren't racist." Y'all should refrain from these statements if you're so unfamiliar with the region.

 

[metalslimer]

Yep to win the south you basically have to cave in to racists but you can maybe support some economic issues. But don't talk about how that will help minorities

 

[Blader]

Steve Bannon is going to just end up be a Breaking Bad Nazis guy.

https://mobile.twitter.com/markberman/status/840662646403805184?p=v

It means he was disintegrating bodies in there.

 

[Third Strike]

In regards to winning in the South, the only thing we can really do is wait until the major metros in the South continue to grow until they can out weigh the rural areas. That's good news for Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas, since these places are experiencing massive growth from transplants from the Northeast and West, but this doesn't do much for the other southern states like Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas. Besides maybe a couple of congressional districts after gerrymandering reform, there's not much we can do to ever flip those states. And for governorships, JBE is as good as it's going to get for a Democrat to win.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

In regards to winning in the South, the only thing we can really do is wait until the major metros in the South continue to grow until they can out weigh the rural areas. That's good news for Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas, since these places are experiencing massive growth from transplants from the Northeast and West, but this doesn't do much for the other southern states like Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas. Besides maybe a couple of congressional districts after gerrymandering reform, there's not much we can do to ever flip those states. And for governorships, JBE is as good as it's going to get for a Democrat to win.

We also need to get rid of the Reapportionment Act. If every state got districts based on how many Wyomings they have, we may improve our House margins. 40% of Mississippi votes Dem, but we've only got 25% of our 4 districts (Bennie Thompson in the Delta). Another district wouldn't flip the state, but it would make it 3-2 red instead of 3-1.