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[Dubbedinenglish]

Laughing over here at "many white people in Mississippi aren't racist." Y'all should refrain from these statements if you're so unfamiliar with the region.

After passing a bar's sign that said in variations "Obama the Muslim nigger in the White House" in rural GA for years, I had a good chuckle at that. Racism is in the blood of the rural south.

 

[Diablos]

The issue w/ Manchin is that WV is so far in the weeds that he is literally the best we can do. Principles are great in a president/national campaign, but part of making "50-state" work is adjusting at the state/local level in order to get access to power. You can't do anything if you can't get elected. (The complaints about Manchin aren't coming from within WV)

Agreed 100%. He's still better than any Republican Senator.

 

[thepotatoman]

Yep to win the south you basically have to cave in to racists but you can maybe support some economic issues. But don't talk about how that will help minorities

And one big mistake I see red state democrats make is they don't realize "means testing" and everything related is taken as a code word to mean "only for minorities and not white people", even if it's not true.

Means testing does allow you to have less of a tax and deficit impact, but sometimes I wonder if it's better to avoid those worries racists have altogether and take the hit on the socialist higher taxes or irresponsible deficit instead, which you are going to be hit by anyways.

 

[kess]

Perhaps it isn't such a large electoral prize, but the Democrats had better watch that Upstate New York, Maine, and New Hampshire don't slip out of the Democratic column, because the House and Senate is nigh unwinnable without the South and the rural North.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

And one big mistake I see red state democrats make is they don't realize "means testing" and everything related is taken as a code word to mean "only for minorities and not white people", even if it's not true.

Means testing does allow you to have less of a tax and deficit impact, but sometimes I wonder if it's better to avoid those worries racists have altogether and take the hit on the socialist higher taxes or irresponsible deficit instead, which you are going to be hit by anyways.

Honestly, I don't even think that would help. The easy opposition is to just use a local dogwhistle to get the race part in there anyway. We voted down a measure to fund schools because it meant that "a judge in Hinds County would decide which schools get money" and everybody knew that they meant a black judge from a black county giving money to black schools instead of white ones (desegregation is a joke here, there are absolutely black and white towns). It was heavily racist, and it won out by a lot.

 

[Diablos]

In regards to winning in the South, the only thing we can really do is wait until the major metros in the South continue to grow until they can out weigh the rural areas. That's good news for Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas, since these places are experiencing massive growth from transplants from the Northeast and West, but this doesn't do much for the other southern states like Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas. Besides maybe a couple of congressional districts after gerrymandering reform, there's not much we can do to ever flip those states. And for governorships, JBE is as good as it's going to get for a Democrat to win.

VA, NC, GA and TX are plenty enough especially for getting started in terms of electoral votes especially, but if this goes all the way down the line it will help immensely with Gov seats, House seats, Senate seats etc

 

[thepotatoman]

Honestly, I don't even think that would help. The easy opposition is to just use a local dogwhistle to get the race part in there anyway. We voted down a measure to fund schools because it meant that "a judge in Hinds County would decide which schools get money" and everybody knew that they meant a black judge from a black county giving money to black schools instead of white ones (desegregation is a joke here, there are absolutely black and white towns). It was heavily racist, and it won out by a lot.

It's much harder to say that when your position is that every single person has exactly the same access to the same amount of government benefits. It's like how Republicans are removing income and location based calculations on subsidies, even though that hurts their rural voters the most. They're getting rid of the things that racists think make it so the money only goes to black people.

 

[Crocodile]

It's much harder to say that when your position is that every single person has exactly the same access to the same amount of government benefits. It's like how Republicans are removing income and location based calculations on subsidies, even though that hurts their rural voters the most. They're getting rid of the things that racists think make it so the money only goes to black people.

Obligatory:

Just like Toxic Masculinity hurts men, White Supremacy hurts white people too. I just don't know if that fact will ever get through to most of them :/

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

It's much harder to say that when your position is that every single person has exactly the same access to the same amount of government benefits. It's like how Republicans are removing income and location based calculations on subsidies, even though that hurts their rural voters the most. They're getting rid of the things that racists think make it so the money only goes to black people.

Do racists really think Alaska has all of the black people though?

 

[NeoXChaos]

In regards to winning in the South, the only thing we can really do is wait until the major metros in the South continue to grow until they can out weigh the rural areas. That's good news for Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas, since these places are experiencing massive growth from transplants from the Northeast and West, but this doesn't do much for the other southern states like Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas. Besides maybe a couple of congressional districts after gerrymandering reform, there's not much we can do to ever flip those states. And for governorships, JBE is as good as it's going to get for a Democrat to win.

well if whites ever become less racially motivated and/or white millennials/Z's stay down here and start voting Democrat then maybe in 20 years as long as blacks continue to vote 90% Democrat we have a chance. Magic number being 35%.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

pigeon, I actually wholeheartedly agree with you that diversifying rural communities is a very good idea, as someone who grew up in a town of 4k people that was a quarter latino. I think our relative diversity was great for us (except the number of Mexican restaraunts, because it's like the worst food). I think there's a few programs that could help with that, including a beefed up Americorps, especially if paired with a federal job guarantee or liberalizing our immigration process for doctors or other healthcare professionals and having them work at understaffed rural facilities (from what I've read this is an important part of Canadian integration). I just object to people telling me "I hope your friends and family die", especially when they didn't vote Trump!

 

[kirblar]

Rural communities "dying" happens via a) old age and b) young people moving away. It's not literally genocide- mass drug addiction is not a good thing, that's basically letting places decay into no-hope Russia. We have massive economic success, we just need to find ways to bring people to it.

liberalizing our immigration process for doctors or other healthcare professionals and having them work at understaffed rural facilities

We actually already do this.

This was actually one of the things brought up w/ the Muslim ban attempt and the potential chill effect on immigration as being real bad for Trump voters.

 

[thepotatoman]

Obligatory:



Just like Toxic Masculinity hurts men, White Supremacy hurts white people too. I just don't know if that fact will ever get through to most of them :/

It's why I'm wondering what democrats could get away with being made more flat without actually giving up benifits, but it's a hard balance with trying to not increase taxes so much people revolt just on that.

 

[sphagnum]

(except the number of Mexican restaraunts, because it's like the worst food)

You're out of the club

 

[AntoneM]

(except the number of Mexican restaraunts, because it's like the worst food)

I don't even know where to start with this.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

It's why I'm wondering what democrats could get away with being made more flat without actually giving up benifits, but it's a hard balance with trying to not increase taxes so much people revolt just on that.

In isolation, it's probably easy, but for any plan you come up with, you always have to pretend to be a Republican and write attack ads. These people made Kerry a coward compared to a draft dodger; assume the worst from them.

 

[jack_package_200]

(except the number of Mexican restaraunts, because it's like the worst food). !

We can no longer be friends.

 

[Sibylus]

(except the number of Mexican restaraunts, because it's like the worst food)

Swine.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

(except the number of Mexican restaraunts, because it's like the worst food)

You're from Idaho right?

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Bonen, we've had our amicable disagreements, but I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye if it's not over a good plate of Mexican food.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Bonen is the new Adam

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Colbert ripped into Pruitt on his show about his comment on CO2.

 

[kirblar]

pigeon, I actually wholeheartedly agree with you that diversifying rural communities is a very good idea, as someone who grew up in a town of 4k people that was a quarter latino. I think our relative diversity was great for us (except the number of Mexican restaraunts, because it's like the worst food). I think there's a few programs that could help with that, including a beefed up Americorps, especially if paired with a federal job guarantee or liberalizing our immigration process for doctors or other healthcare professionals and having them work at understaffed rural facilities (from what I've read this is an important part of Canadian integration). I just object to people telling me "I hope your friends and family die", especially when they didn't vote Trump!

Also, as a point of reference in the future, my High School(/Middle School) had 4000 students.

I also question your taste level. And taste buds.

 

[BanGy.nz]

Bonen is the new Adam

Not even close.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Cities are growing pretty much everywhere.

Also lmao at the idea that the Democrats will win the white racists in the south with #socialism!!

 

[kirblar]

Cities are growing pretty much everywhere.

Also lmao at the idea that the Democrats will win the white racists in the south with #socialism!!

Here's another .pdf on that as a worldwide phenomenon for anyone interested - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwi6zJ3m48_SAhUJRSYKHaWhD7UQFgggMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mckinsey.com%2F~%2Fmedia%2FMcKinsey%2FGlobal%2520Themes%2FUrbanization%2FUrban%2520world%2FMGI_urban_world_mapping_economic_power_of_cities_full_report.ashx&usg=AFQjCNFVe_mg1SS_tATbpLYn7Dfb5yBb9g&sig2=LtCq6fqkrqpx42EghiLHOg&bvm=bv.149397726,d.eWE

 

[B-Dubs]

Cities are growing pretty much everywhere.

Also lmao at the idea that the Democrats will win the white racists in the south with #socialism!!

Maybe it'd work if you said brown people don't get the benefits of socialism.

At the deep core of American politics is racism. If you can't overcome that then you won't be able to do anything. There's a reason Obama was the first african-american president.

 

[thepotatoman]

Cities are growing pretty much everywhere.

Also lmao at the idea that the Democrats will win the white racists in the south with #socialism!!

As if there's any other path that's even theoretically possible. They'd be even less likely to win with #libertarianism or being completely republican but with a democrat tag.

Moderatly economic populist is the only way to go.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

As if there's any other path that's even theoretically possible. They'd be even less likely to win with #libertarianism or being completely republican but with a democrat tag.

Moderatly economic populist is the only way to go.

Or you just take them into the future kicking and screaming like we've always had to do.

 

[FloydtheFathead]

Not even close.

Adam is literally the worst

#NeverForget

 

[shinra-bansho]

I don't know where there was any implication that #libertarianism!! would be a solution.

Or being completely Republican with a Democratic tag for that matter.
The completely Republican with a Republican tag and all the dogwhistles or overt racism to go with it already have that on lock for Alabama and Tennessee and Kentucky and so forth.

I have no idea why we're once again indulging the fantasy of the secret Democratic voter that comprises the entirety of the non-voting portion in the South and will sweep Arkansas' state house and governor's mansion and Senate seats and congressional districts through magic and pixie dust and #socialism and birds and memes.

If you're talking about winning back Northern whites in periurban locales with a moderation of message and a better candidate that's one thing. But when you start pretending that you're going to win Utah and Oklahoma by tacking super left because that's what everyone secretly wants, then you're coo coo for cocoa puffs.

 

[AntoneM]

You're from Idaho right?

If that's so I can understand. I lived in Spokane for a year (after living in Phoenix for several years) and the best Mexican food in town was literally Taco Del Mar which seems to be closed. There was a local place that the people absolutlrey loved called Chronic Burrito, but it was gross. I tried like 4 different burritos there and they were all terrible. The Upper Mountain Western US doesn't know what a burrito is; and if you don't know that, then you don't know Mexican food.

 

[kess]

Mike Beebe won every county in Arkansas in 2010 but then the State House went Republican despite his relative popularity. Take that as you will.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

If that's so I can understand. I lived in Spokane for a year (after living in Phoenix for several years) and the best Mexican food in town was literally Taco Del Mar which seems to be closed. There was a local place that the people absolutlrey loved called Chronic Burrito, but it was gross. I tried like 4 different burritos there and they were all terrible. The Upper Mountain Western US doesn't know what a burrito is; and if you don't know that, then you don't know Mexican food.

I'm from Boise and the best thing we got is Chapala's around the city, then again, I haven't been to all of the Mexican restaurants in Boise.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Mike Beebe won every county in Arkansas in 2010 but then the State House went Republican despite his relative popularity. Take that as you will.

Mike Beebe, noted socialist

Spoiler

i don't think you meant it this way at all

 

[Piecake]

I don't know where there was any implication that #libertarianism!! would be a solution.

Or being completely Republican with a Democratic tag for that matter.
The completely Republican with a Republican tag and all the dogwhistles or overt racism to go with it already have that on lock for Alabama and Tennessee and Kentucky and so forth.

I have no idea why we're once again indulging the fantasy of the secret Democratic voter that comprises the entirety of the non-voting portion in the South and will sweep Arkansas' state house and governor's mansion and Senate seats and congressional districts through magic and pixie dust and #socialism and birds and memes.

I'd say its a good example of motivated reasoning

I'd be perfectly fine if the democratic party moved left because my values are more left than the average democrat, but the idea that the working class would flock to those values seems to be only based on theory and not things like actual reality.

If the white working class voted based on their economic class interest they would have never left the democratic party to begin with. Sure, it became less of a workers party in the 80s and on, but it still benefited average workers a lot more than the Republican party platform. They started to switch because of values and culture, not economics, and soon that party switch changed into republican self- identity.

You aren't changing a person who self-identifies as a conservative or republican values and culture by adopting socialism. The WWC certainly don't share those values and culture.

 

[kess]

Mike Beebe, noted socialist

Spoiler

i don't think you meant it this way at all

I'm aware of how conservative he is, and that didn't help when the Republican party inundated the state during the 2012 election.

There's no future in being a conservative-lite for Democrats, but there is definitely currency left in Democratic talking points when they aren't being usurped by Republicans. Higher minimum wage, lower grocery taxes, etc.

If Trump blows everything up, the best way to capitalize on it is showing up in the first place!

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I'm from Boise and the best thing we got is Chapala's around the city, then again, I haven't been to all of the Mexican restaurants in Boise.

I am from Idaho but we have plenty of real/authentic Mexican food, it's just that Mexican food isn't good. Sorry y'all.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I am from Idaho but we have plenty of real/authentic Mexican food, it's just that Mexican food isn't good. Sorry y'all.

Where in Idaho are you from?

 

[thepotatoman]

I don't know where there was any implication that #libertarianism!! would be a solution.

Or being completely Republican with a Democratic tag for that matter.
The completely Republican with a Republican tag and all the dogwhistles or overt racism to go with it already have that on lock for Alabama and Tennessee and Kentucky and so forth.

I have no idea why we're once again indulging the fantasy of the secret Democratic voter that comprises the entirety of the non-voting portion in the South and will sweep Arkansas' state house and governor's mansion and Senate seats and congressional districts through magic and pixie dust and #socialism and birds and memes.

If you're talking about winning back Northern whites in periurban locales with a moderation of message and a better candidate that's one thing. But when you start pretending that you're going to win Utah and Oklahoma by tacking super left because that's what everyone secretly wants, then you're coo coo for cocoa puffs.

So in other words screw the 50 state strategy. Which maybe is the right path outside of any major scandals.

But is Kentucky and Georgia too much to ask for?

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Where in Idaho are you from?

From Buhl but I go to school in Moscow now.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

From Buhl but I go to school in Moscow now.

I never been that far up north.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

So in other words screw the 50 state strategy. Which maybe is the right path outside of any major scandals.

But is Kentucky and Georgia too much to ask for?

People threw a fit when they had Steve Beshear do the response to Trump's not-SOTU, so maybe

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I never been that far up north.

Buhl is where the authentic Mexican food is though, there's a bunch (too many imo) of immigrant run local restaurants.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Buhl is where the authentic Mexican food is though, there's a bunch (too many imo) of immigrant run local restaurants.

Interesting. I know there is some Korean places in Boise that have popped up here and there. If I ever go to Buhl, I will look for those places.

 

[shinra-bansho]

So in other words screw the 50 state strategy. Which maybe is the right path outside of any major scandals.

But is Kentucky and Georgia too much to ask for?

Yes? And no?

It's why the "50 state strategy" is just a buzz phrase. If you mean compete where it makes sense across all 50 states, sure. There are certainly races that can be won even in the southern states or the more racist white midwest, generally not statewide with the exception of scandal or even more moderation on social issues than Manchin to the point where they'd probably have to vote against the caucus too often. Some states are trending and getting there. Others will be a while. Others will never get there in the foreseeable because nope to blacks and browns.

If it means pretend you're going to win Mitch McConnell's seat by whatever pet theory of magic superliberal secret voter is the #trend of the day though. I have a rock that keeps tigers away to sell you.

 

[timetokill]

Hmm.. I don't see any tigers around...

shinra-bansho, I'd like to buy your rock

 

[Boke1879]

cross posting a bit.

 

[thepotatoman]

Yes? And no?

It's why the "50 state strategy" is just a buzz phrase. If you mean compete where it makes sense across all 50 states, sure. There are certainly races that can be won even in the southern states or the more racist white midwest, generally not statewide with the exception of scandal or even more moderation on social issues than Manchin to the point where they'd probably have to vote against the caucus too often. Some states are trending and getting there. Others will be a while. Others will never get there in the foreseeable because nope to blacks and browns.

If it means pretend you're going to win Mitch McConnell's seat by whatever pet theory of magic superliberal secret voter is the #trend of the day though. I have a rock that keeps tigers away to sell you.

Ok, new proposal.

Run the most socialist socialist that ever socialist in every impossible to win seat, for the sole intent to shut up any bernie bot that thinks bernie's the answer to every single last problem of the democrats.

They'll just come back and complain that they weren't supported well enough by the dnc, but it's not like it costs anything.

 

[sphagnum]

Ok, new proposal.

Run the most socialist socialist that ever socialist in every impossible to win state, for the sole intent to shut up any bernie bot that thinks bernie's the answer to every single last problem of the democrats.

They'll just come back and complain that they weren't supported well enough by the dnc, but it's not like it costs anything.

I actually like this idea because it will help normalize our message among the Democrats in those areas who do vote.

Can't win anyway, might as well speak truth to power.