Why is Pence's existence relevant to the internal Democratic party debate over the future of the party?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
PoliGAF 2017 |OT5| The Man In the High Chair
- Thread starter aspiegamer
- Start date
- Status
Why is Pence's existence relevant to the internal Democratic party debate over the future of the party?
Poodlestrike
Banned
There is no constitutional provision for presidential recall elections, so I suppose that unless we get to a point where the idea is so popular we can pass a quick constitutional amendment (it won't), then obviously Mike Pence would become president. This would be a step up, because the worst he could do is some more or less reversible domestic policy damage. He wouldn't destroy our international standing or embolden the extreme right to nearly the extent Trump is.
That said, in an ideal world we'd just impeach the both of them and put a Speaker of our choice in the office.
This is pretty much my take on Pence vs Trump. The GOP probably passes some kind of healthcare bill if Pence is President. On the other hand, Pence would probably have a functioning State Department and other branches of government that would at least maintain conventional government activity. So the question is how important you think it is for America to have a functioning government and non-insane military leader.
habithipster
Member
As for the second part I don't really know. It feels kind of late to annul the election, maybe it will come down to if Pence knew or not.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I don't think Pence will be able to get anything done if Trump resigns or is ousted.
Wait sorry I don't know what you mean by this?
I still don't know if Pence would actually be better (this post subject to change based on whether or not there is a mushroom cloud on the horizon) but, yeah. The best case would be the Dems taking the house, impeaching Trump and Pence simultaneously and Nancy Pelosi becoming President. I would be super down with that. Although it would probably get pretty scary as far as civil unrest goes.
I feel like the situation in which we prove Pence knew about the collusion and the GOP still refuse to remove him or they remove him to replace him with Paul Ryan is also going to be kind of a mess on that front, to be honest.
Basically America's super fucked up right now.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I don't get this viewpoint at all. I feel like most Republicans would coalesce around him.
Poodlestrike
Banned
This is a big factor, tbh. You, me, everyone here knows that Mike Pence is a far-right lunatic, but the whole reason he was picked was to shore up what were perceived to be Trump's weak ties to the establishment R's, who are clearly no longer running the show. Remove Trump himself and I honestly don't think they get much of anything done. The party is just too broken at this point.
Isn't the big issue time? Impeachment takes time (and won't happen until 2018). It will slow everything to a grinding halt. 2020 will be around the corner.
If Pence becomes president, his first term will not last very long before he has to hit the campaign trail.
The objective then is the same objective now: win in 2018, win in 2020. There are no other alternatives.
If Pence becomes president, his first term will not last very long before he has to hit the campaign trail.
The objective then is the same objective now: win in 2018, win in 2020. There are no other alternatives.
Russian involvement in the DNC leaks absolutely harmed Hillary's image, and had this not happened it's possible she'd be in the White House right now. Hillary's loss was so unbelievably narrow that any little change could have swayed the outcome of the race. But even if Russia can be implicated in this one aspect of her loss, the election should never have been so close in the first place.
If Hillary had better messaging, smarter campaign strategy, and a more proactive platform, she would have swept the floor with Trump. The guy is the least popular candidate for president on record, so this should have been a really easy victory. Because Hillary's people weren't properly attuned to the feelings of battleground state voters, she lost huge swaths of the Obama coalition and couldn't bring enough non-voters out to the polls. The lion's share of the blame lies squarely at the feet of Hillary and her people, and future campaigns must work incredibly carefully to not replicate these same mistakes.
If Hillary had better messaging, smarter campaign strategy, and a more proactive platform, she would have swept the floor with Trump. The guy is the least popular candidate for president on record, so this should have been a really easy victory. Because Hillary's people weren't properly attuned to the feelings of battleground state voters, she lost huge swaths of the Obama coalition and couldn't bring enough non-voters out to the polls. The lion's share of the blame lies squarely at the feet of Hillary and her people, and future campaigns must work incredibly carefully to not replicate these same mistakes.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
We don't have much historical references for the situation, so it's mostly speculation. We basically have Nixon, and that's it.
But a President either forced out or forced to resign over connections to a foreign country and attempts to cover up and stop an investigation into those connections (this is probably a nicer possibility of possible charges) would be immensely damaging to the GOP.
We would be looking at a tidal "blue wave" election in 2018 and 2020.
Political survival instincts will set in for the GOP.
If Pence becomes president via impeachment or resignation, the Republican Party would not only immediately coalesce around him, they'd all pretend Donald Trump never even existed faster than it takes you to finish this sentence.
Speaking of Nixon and presidential resignations being immensely damaging to the GOP, it bears pointing out that the '76 election was extremely close.
Speaking of Nixon and presidential resignations being immensely damaging to the GOP, it bears pointing out that the '76 election was extremely close.
benicillin
Banned
The crazy thing to me remains that getting Donald Trump out of office willingly would probably create a disgusting amount of goodwill towards the GOP. Look at what it did for McCain. Why don't they all want to be moderate darlings?
If they wait until their hand is forced I think they lose out on that potential.
If they wait until their hand is forced I think they lose out on that potential.
nature boy
Member
LOL, sure
Did he go back to Putin's cock in the gloryhole after that comment?
Lol that makes no sense.
HanShotFirst
Member
That's true but don't forget Nixon won 60% and McGovern with 37% of the vote in '72 and Ford won 48% and Carter won 50% in '76. So while Carter won narrowly, it was still a ~21% swing towards Democrats.
Also Democrats picked up 49 seats in the House in 1974 midterms.
That's something every asshole says when you call them out on their bullshit.
He wasn't kidding, and he has said numerous times that he doesn't "kid".
I don't know why the media refuses to take him to task for things he says.
Whenever I'm kidding, I have someone else say I was kidding the day after....
See, but the feelings of battleground state voters were that racism is awesome, so I think we should try really hard to replicate the mistake of not being properly attuned to them
Fenderputty
Banned
What the GOP does if he's hypothetically impeached is interesting. His approval is going to have to be in the shitter for them to start actual impeachment so, I would imagine they would be less worried about upsetting his crazed base if he ever were impeached. His crazed base is the only reason they tolerated him in the first place.
If they no longer fear his base why would they fear coalescing around Pence or Ryan?
When does this hypothetical impeachment happen too? Before 2018 when dems have no control? After 2018 when the Dems could maybe pick up the house? During an election year?
If they no longer fear his base why would they fear coalescing around Pence or Ryan?
When does this hypothetical impeachment happen too? Before 2018 when dems have no control? After 2018 when the Dems could maybe pick up the house? During an election year?
It's like choosing between shit and shit mixed with puke. Ahhh how wonderful!
Trump is the latter tho. Come on folks get it right.
Of course that's good news for '18.
Better messaging? Like brown people are taking your jobs and should be deported?
Where do voters' agency fit into all of this?
IggyChooChoo
Member
Nixon wasn't tweeting about how the GOP betrayed him in 1976. Trump most likely would be. It would be a disaster for the GOP. The GOP can't drop him without him going permanently apeshit against them.
Also I missed this yesterday, but what the fuck is this?!? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/10/nyregion/democrats-new-york-blacks.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
I really can't see why Cuomo would run or how he could possibly win more than 1% in Iowa or NH. He has no base, is about as uninspired as it gets, and can't strongarm his way past the electorate.
I really can't see why Cuomo would run or how he could possibly win more than 1% in Iowa or NH. He has no base, is about as uninspired as it gets, and can't strongarm his way past the electorate.
IggyChooChoo
Member
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
As well as raging underlying sexism in our country. That played a huge role.
Basileus777
Member
The 74 elections decimated the GOP and it took them until Reagan to bounce back. After 1976 the GOP had 12 governorships, 38 Senate seats, and 143 House seats.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Cuomo is such an odd ball because his record in a vacuum would make him into a far left hero and an example of an awesome liberal governor.
Except he's not really and his record is a bit deceiving.
Except he's not really and his record is a bit deceiving.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Interesting article on WV-3, which is open next year as Evan Jenkins is running against Joe Manchin.
https://decisiondeskhq.com/news/open-seat-watch-west-viginias-3rd-district/
This was the last congressional seat in West Virginia to still be held by a Democrat (Nick Rahall, a 38-year incumbent who finally lost in 2014 after two close shaves in 2010 and 2012).
While it's no less red than the other two WV districts, it still has a strong habit of voting Dem downballot, and Democrats actually scored two decent candidates here, State Senator Richard Ojeda (who openly supported Trump last year... groan) and Huntington Mayor Steve Williams.
Not super thrilled with the candidates from an ideological perspective, though it'll be interesting to see whether this district is still capable of electing any Democrat.
https://decisiondeskhq.com/news/open-seat-watch-west-viginias-3rd-district/
This was the last congressional seat in West Virginia to still be held by a Democrat (Nick Rahall, a 38-year incumbent who finally lost in 2014 after two close shaves in 2010 and 2012).
While it's no less red than the other two WV districts, it still has a strong habit of voting Dem downballot, and Democrats actually scored two decent candidates here, State Senator Richard Ojeda (who openly supported Trump last year... groan) and Huntington Mayor Steve Williams.
Not super thrilled with the candidates from an ideological perspective, though it'll be interesting to see whether this district is still capable of electing any Democrat.
Box of Kittens
Banned
I don't care how hard it is to win in West Virginia, I consider openly supporting Trump to be a deal-breaker.
whyamihere
Banned
So the Senate Leadership Fund now wants Kid Rock to run in Michigan for Senate.
Kid Rock would probably would have a decent shot of winning the seat if Hillary were POTUS. I agree that Kid Rock is the Republican who would do best against Stabenow in the GE. This fact should not make Republicans proud. And yet.
If I were in a party where the ideals of Kid Rock was the party's best shot to win a seat, I would leave said party.
Kid Rock would probably would have a decent shot of winning the seat if Hillary were POTUS. I agree that Kid Rock is the Republican who would do best against Stabenow in the GE. This fact should not make Republicans proud. And yet.
If I were in a party where the ideals of Kid Rock was the party's best shot to win a seat, I would leave said party.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. Although if this were a gun-to-my-head situation where Ojeda was literally vote #218... I might have to think about that one.
Wasn't there a longtime MS Congressman who supported McCain? Gene Taylor I think. Although he only announced that after the 08 election to try and get some tea party support iirc so he might as well have been lying. Still, I can understand supporting McCain much more easily than supporting Trump.
You got airhorned, but yes, I agree. But what do you expect out of a group that literally named themselves after Bill Clinton?
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
As someone with close ties to Michigan, I still say that's a tossup even at this point. People in that state idolize him and Stabenow has been railed against for years by the local right-wing media in the state. To be honest, I'd compare a race between those two to Trump vs. Clinton. A lot of the variables are quite similar. Major difference would be, as you said, if Hillary was president and republicans were driven to the polls to vote against her. I think Kid Rock will still draw them to the polls, though (although I'm not sure if it will be at the same level as they came out against Hillary).
I guess why? Who is this for and why does this exist?
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
He was being jokey but it was because he didn't want to speak ill of Putin, so same difference.
Basically he gave a silly answer because he was afraid to give a serious one.
whyamihere
Banned
Hillary had never won Michigan before and lost it by 10,000 votes.
That is not true of Debbie Stabenow. She's be "railed against for years", and yet. The variables are similar if you distill them down to "white woman running against foul mouthed political outsider", which, sure, you could be that obtuse if that's your choice.
hydragonwarrior
Member
Agreed that Russian interference pretty much doomed Hillary.
Oh let's just casually leak something about her e-mao;s prior to the election. People who were already buying "they're both the same" or "Hillary's another politician" combined with her rather lackluster presence likely caused people not to vote at all (in combination "oh she's going to win anyway".
Oh let's just casually leak something about her e-mao;s prior to the election. People who were already buying "they're both the same" or "Hillary's another politician" combined with her rather lackluster presence likely caused people not to vote at all (in combination "oh she's going to win anyway".
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I guess I don't get this. I'm well aware of the political happenings in the state over the last 30 years. I'll say it again: I don't believe treating today like any other political climate is smart. Gerrymandering is huge. Racism and sexism are rejuvenated. People are more polarized than ever. I feel like comparing today's situation to anything before 2016 is not going to be as useful as it would have been in years past.
whyamihere
Banned
You said "the variables are similar". Hillary starts out as a candidate who has never actually won Michigan before and then lost it by 10,000 votes. How is that a similar variable to someone who won the state three times beforehand? Like, I guess if you want to be needlessly obtuse, sure, fine. You can say that none of that matters and all that matters is that Trump won Michigan by 10,000 votes and Kid Rock has a 50/50 chance of winning Michigan and beating a three term incumbent. I would say you're being foolish, ignoring Trump's sinking popularity in Michigan, as well as the general dynamics that happen in a midterm to make your own point that Michigan Is More Racist And Sexist Than Anyone On NeoGAF Believes! Which, fine, that's your prerogative. I think that Kid Rock would have a decent shot if Hillary were president. I think, at best, he can hold Stabenow to below 55% given the dynamics of the year, which matter more than what you report on the sexism of Michigan.
And what does gerrymandering have to do with anything?
There are many factors for why Hillary lost, and Russia/Wikileaks is a big one. But I tend to think if there was any single element that helped Trump over the finish line, it was Comey. It was Comey's press conference that further damned Hillary as being untrustworthy in the public's eyes (even though the purpose of that presser was to close the investigation and exonerate her of any actual wrongdoing!) and it was his 11th hour letter to Congress that threw the election to Trump right at the end.
Not to downplay the role of Russia or Wikileaks in the election, but if I had to land on one person that I thought was to blame for Trump's election (other than Robby Mook), it'd be Comey, not Putin.
Not to downplay the role of Russia or Wikileaks in the election, but if I had to land on one person that I thought was to blame for Trump's election (other than Robby Mook), it'd be Comey, not Putin.
Box of Kittens
Banned
Stabenow should beat Kid Rock so long as her team takes him seriously, which it sounds like they are.
Not taking anything for granted though.
Not taking anything for granted though.
whyamihere
Banned
I mean, it's as much of a Hail Mary as Rob Quist was. Could be a dumber one since Quist's problems were just his taxes.
- Status