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PoliGAF 2nd Pres. Debate 2008 Thread (DOW dropping, Biden is off to Home Depot)

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Piecake

Member
mckmas8808 said:
Well your excuse was the same excuse that some racist people have been using lately. Poor people weren't the problem. So many of the people that flopped on their mortage were middle class people.

And some of them were investors trying to flip properties. But you should blame the banks before you blame the DEMs or poor people.

Why would the banks give people the loans if they couldn't afford it?

They made a shit ton of money off of it.

Also, Krowley, that is the reason why we are in this mess. So no, it is not like the banks were forced or encouraged by the govt to give people mortgages that they couldn't afford; they wanted to give mortgages to people that couldn't afford them because they, like i said, made a shit ton of money off of it.
 

Trurl

Banned
Danthrax said:
I've been afraid for Obama. The secret service better be on their A-game for the next four years. =\
A large number of people believe that the Bush administration was directly behind 9/11. If Bush is safe with theories like that holding weight I feel like Obama will be safe.

You guys are getting a bit carried away with the fears of racism.
 

Krowley

Member
Gonaria said:
They made a shit ton of money off of it.

Also, Krowley, that is the reason why we are in this mess. So no, it is not like the banks were forced or encouraged by the govt to give people mortgages that they couldn't afford; they wanted to give mortgages to people that couldn't afford them because they, like i said, made a shit ton of money off of it.

No I'm not claiming that. I'm saying that the sorts of regulations needed to curtail sub prime lending wouldn't have been popular with the democrats because they don't want to make it harder for people to buy houses. It wouldn't have been popular with republicans either, because it was making the banks a shit load of money. So there are reasons to avoid the issue on both sides of the isle. If anybody had even tried to fix this in advance, they would have been laughed off the stage by both sides.

"lets puncture this housing bubble before it gets too big" would not have been a popular bill at all.
 
Obama as a martyr would be 100x more effective than having him serve a presidential term. His death would bring about real revolution.

Which is precisely why he'll never be assassinated. So stop worrying.
 
The way I understand this whole "Chain of Blame" is this:

Clinton encouraged banks to give subprime loans to poor people to enable them to acquire housing and stimulate that part of the market.

In 1999, lobbyists successfully removed a Great Depression era act (S?????-G????? Act) that enabled to give sub-prime mortgages to anyone without restrictions or checks.

Mortgage backed securities allowed banks to transfer the risk to other institutions entirely. By bundling good mortgages with stinkers, they got great ratings on the bundles, and were able to sell them easily. The elimination of risk/retribution further spurred banks to make loans to anyone for any amount. Some customers willingly took advantage of this, some of them used this to take out loans they thought they genuinely qualified for.

Big investment banks and financial institutions bought into the securities, seeing them as highly rewarding, low risk investments with sterling ratings.

Personally, I see the banks that churned out these mortgages as mostly responsible, then the legislators that removed all limits, then followed by credit ratings/big financial institutions for not checking up on what these things were, finally, by consumers that took advantage of the situation.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Tyrone Slothrop said:
the social security detail is probably so elaborate around him i'd think there'll be a problem
The who with the what now? As long as I can still draw on my secret service fund when I retire.
 
Outdoor Miner said:
Obama as a martyr would be 100x more effective than having him serve a presidential term. His death would bring about real revolution.

Which is precisely why he'll never be assassinated. So stop worrying.
Besides, Vice President Santiago will just open the border up if that happened.

But seriously, we shouldn't even joke about things like that. It would be an absolute tragedy.
 

greepoman

Member
FlightOfHeaven said:
In 1999, lobbyists successfully removed a Great Depression era act (S?????-G????? Act) that enabled to give sub-prime mortgages to anyone without restrictions or checks.


Is this the act you're thinking of:

"The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, also known as the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act, enacted November 12, 1999, is an Act of the United States Congress which repealed part of the Glass-Steagall Act, opening up competition among banks, securities companies and insurance companies. The Glass-Steagall Act prohibited a bank from offering investment, commercial banking, and insurance services."

Notice the Gramm is the same Gramm who was McCain's financial guy until he called Americans whiners (couldn't resist a partisan dig lol).

So it seems this allowed companies to become "to big to fail" though I've read that they might've softened the blow? Still kind of ironic that none of those companies no longer exist less than 10 years after they were allowed to form. Especially considering the whole premise of doing it was to "allow them to compete on the world market better". Hard to compete when your company fails.
 

devilhawk

Member
mckmas8808 said:
Well your excuse was the same excuse that some racist people have been using lately. Poor people weren't the problem. So many of the people that flopped on their mortage were middle class people.

And some of them were investors trying to flip properties. But you should blame the banks before you blame the DEMs or poor people.

Why would the banks give people the loans if they couldn't afford it?
That doesn't necessarily agree with data. Here is a paper from the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity at The Ohio State University. It is only 24 pages (lots of graphs) and quite interesting. It deals with socioeconomic conditions, race, subprime lending and foreclosures. There is lots of data presented.
 

thefit

Member
FlightOfHeaven said:
The way I understand this whole "Chain of Blame" is this:

Clinton encouraged banks to give subprime loans to poor people to enable them to acquire housing and stimulate that part of the market.

In 1999, lobbyists successfully removed a Great Depression era act (S?????-G????? Act) that enabled to give sub-prime mortgages to anyone without restrictions or checks.

Mortgage backed securities allowed banks to transfer the risk to other institutions entirely. By bundling good mortgages with stinkers, they got great ratings on the bundles, and were able to sell them easily. The elimination of risk/retribution further spurred banks to make loans to anyone for any amount. Some customers willingly took advantage of this, some of them used this to take out loans they thought they genuinely qualified for.

Big investment banks and financial institutions bought into the securities, seeing them as highly rewarding, low risk investments with sterling ratings.

Personally, I see the banks that churned out these mortgages as mostly responsible, then the legislators that removed all limits, then followed by credit ratings/big financial institutions for not checking up on what these things were, finally, by consumers that took advantage of the situation.

You forget 9/11. We had a financial meltdown then and to prop it up Bush and co. came up with their hair brained Idea known as the "Ownership Society" plan. Everyone seems to just gloss over this nasty little nugget. Listen to the part where he talks about dismantling barriers that keep everyone from owning a Mcmansion. This is 2002.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW9viaJatpo
 

LuCkymoON

Banned
I love Anderson Cooper :lol
in ref to the Ayers association.
"So what's so bad about being the Chairman of an organization that helps schools?"
"I don't know Anderson, but according to the McCain campaign..."

:lol

Ayers is loved by the people of Chicago, that's why this shit never sticks.
 

agrajag

Banned
So I was talking to a coworker of mine today and she told me she doesn't like Obama. She prefaced her comment with a disclaimer that she's not prejudiced and that she has many black friends. :-/
 
agrajag said:
So I was talking to a coworker of mine today and she told me she doesn't like Obama. She prefaced her comment with a disclaimer that she's not prejudiced and that she has many black friends. :-/

I for one believe her.
 

thefit

Member
agrajag said:
So I was talking to a coworker of mine today and she told me she doesn't like Obama. She prefaced her comment with a disclaimer that she's not prejudiced and that she has many black friends. :-/

I never got that, thats like having been insulted followed by "nothing personal".
 

agrajag

Banned
thefit said:
I never got that, thats like having been insulted followed by "nothing personal".

The funny thing is that her comment was not prompted by anything. It was a very awkward moment.
 
Trurl said:
A large number of people believe that the Bush administration was directly behind 9/11. If Bush is safe with theories like that holding weight I feel like Obama will be safe.

You guys are getting a bit carried away with the fears of racism.


For the 1000th time,Obama got secret service protection earlier than any other presidential candidate in U.S. history.
 
agrajag said:
The funny thing is that her comment was not prompted by anything. It was a very awkward moment.

Holy shit!

That makes it even better.

"I mean, I would vote for a black candidate, but I just don't like Obama."
 
ryutaro's mama said:
Holy shit!

That makes it even better.

"I mean, I would vote for a black candidate, but I just don't like Obama."
You should have followed up with: "Yeah, his neo-protectionist bent will totally mess with the US's terms of trade with Australia. Seriously, who needs that? I wants me some cheap steak."
 

agrajag

Banned
ryutaro's mama said:
Holy shit!

That makes it even better.

"I mean, I would vote for a black candidate, but I just don't like Obama."

We were talking about Sarah Palin and how she was having a fund raiser at our resort and I said it's a shame we didn't get to see her because if she came up to talk to me I would've told her I'm voting for Obama. And she goes "I'm not voting for Obama. I'm not prejudiced or anything... but... (awkward silence)... I have many black friends, don't get me wrong, but.. (awkward silence).. I just don't want him to be president. I don't know much about him, but what I know I don't like."
 
agrajag said:
We were talking about Sarah Palin and how she was having a fund raiser at our resort and I said it's a shame we didn't get to see her because if she came up to talk to me I would've told her I'm voting for Obama. And she goes "I'm not voting for Obama. I'm not prejudiced or anything... but... (awkward silence)... I have many black friends, don't get me wrong, but.. (awkward silence).. I just don't want him to be president. I don't know much about him, but what I know I don't like."
Keyensianism. She doesn't like Keyensianism amirite?

(not saying that Obama is a Keyenesian, by the way)
 

thefit

Member
agrajag said:
The funny thing is that her comment was not prompted by anything. It was a very awkward moment.

Her guilt got the best of her. Must have been one of those, "Well, I was gonna say how I respected your opinion but know I just think your a racist", moments eh?
 
agrajag said:
We were talking about Sarah Palin and how she was having a fund raiser at our resort and I said it's a shame we didn't get to see her because if she came up to talk to me I would've told her I'm voting for Obama. And she goes "I'm not voting for Obama. I'm not prejudiced or anything... but... (awkward silence)... I have many black friends, don't get me wrong, but.. (awkward silence).. I just don't want him to be president. I don't know much about him, but what I know I don't like."

:lol :lol :lol

It's like she kept trying to smooth things out and it just got worse and worse for her.

And your silence prolly didn't help.

"Look, ok....dammit...I'm not racist!"

"I like Denzel Washington movies...like the one he did with Julia Roberts...and Uncle Ben's rice is some of the best rice you can buy! And Lebron James..I hear he's a pretty good basketball player...gotdammit! I AM NOT A RACIST!!!!1!!!!ljkhglkh;khkhdhbchfighfoufgdklfhnd"
 

agrajag

Banned
thefit said:
Her guilt got the best of her. Must have been one of those, "Well, I was gonna say how I respected your opinion but know I just think your a racist", moments eh?

I kind of changed the subject right after that. Bringing politics into the workplace is never a good idea in the first place and the last thing I want to do at work is tell a person how I really feel about them.:lol
 

thefit

Member
agrajag said:
I kind of changed the subject right after that. Bringing politics into the workplace is never a good idea in the first place and the last thing I want to do at work is tell a person how I really feel about them.:lol

I know what you mean, I walked into my workplace with an Obama 7-11 coffee cup and it hasn't been the same for me since:lol

08-10_7election.jpg


Obama 58 McCain 42
 

devilhawk

Member
ryutaro's mama said:
Holy shit!

That makes it even better.

"I mean, I would vote for a black candidate, but I just don't like Obama."
Well either she is racist or she had the same conversation before and was called a racist. She probably wasn't comfortable defending herself in a situation like that and decided to hopefully circumvent any accusations in her next political conversation. Regardless, it's odd as hell.

That's just a guess though.
 

agrajag

Banned
devilhawk said:
Well either she is racist or she had the same conversation before and was called a racist. She probably wasn't comfortable defending herself in a situation like that and decided to hopefully circumvent any accusations in her next political conversation. Regardless, it's odd as hell.

That's just a guess though.

Well, the good thing is that she said she's not going to vote. She said she liked Sarah Palin (again, I chose not to challenge that value judgement because I didn't want to start an argument) but that she didn't know anything about John McCain (this is when a few ??? started hovering over my head, he's only been a political figure for the last few decades) and that it feels like he's her running mate instead of the other way around. She said that it's not fair for her to vote if she doesn't care for either of the candidates. So that was good.
 
agrajag said:
I kind of changed the subject right after that. Bringing politics into the workplace is never a good idea in the first place and the last thing I want to do at work is tell a person how I really feel about them.:lol

I bring up politics in the workplace on a daily basis. One coworker of mine is Republican this year. I'm working on her. It feels like she's actually a Democrat but there's something strange going on. A while back I vaguely recall her mentioning that Obama "scares her" or something to that effect. I think she's picked up on me figuring it out so she's really trying to avoid having the real reason come up.

That doesn't deter me from sending her a Youtube video every now and again. Or Palin's incoherent hate-babble. Or quick articles about the election. I'll read excerpts out loud occasionally.

The day after the debate, I'm going to ask what scares her about Obama. Gonna explain how his policies will be better for her than McCain's. See what her reaction is. If it ends up being what I think it may be (a hushed "He's black.") then it'll be that much easier to bring her over.
 
devilhawk said:
Well either she is racist or she had the same conversation before and was called a racist. She probably wasn't comfortable defending herself in a situation like that and decided to hopefully circumvent any accusations in her next political conversation. Regardless, it's odd as hell.

That's just a guess though.

Yeah, I know.

But that's what makes this whole thing laughable.

White people can't just choose to not like Obama w/o looking or feeling like they are viewed as racists.

It's just this weird thing.
 
The Blue Jihad said:
I bring up politics in the workplace on a daily basis. One coworker of mine is Republican this year. I'm working on her. It feels like she's actually a Democrat but there's something strange going on. A while back I vaguely recall her mentioning that Obama "scares her" or something to that effect. I think she's picked up on me figuring it out so she's really trying to avoid having the real reason come up.

That doesn't deter me from sending her a Youtube video every now and again. Or Palin's incoherent hate-babble. Or quick articles about the election. I'll read excerpts out loud occasionally.

The day after the debate, I'm going to ask what scares her about Obama. Gonna explain how his policies will be better for her than McCain's. See what her reaction is. If it ends up being what I think it may be (a hushed "He's black.") then it'll be that much easier to bring her over.

Be careful man.

You job ain't worth one extra vote. ;)
 

devilhawk

Member
The Blue Jihad said:
I bring up politics in the workplace on a daily basis. One coworker of mine is Republican this year. I'm working on her. It feels like she's actually a Democrat but there's something strange going on. A while back I vaguely recall her mentioning that Obama "scares her" or something to that effect. I think she's picked up on me figuring it out so she's really trying to avoid having the real reason come up.

That doesn't deter me from sending her a Youtube video every now and again. Or Palin's incoherent hate-babble. Or quick articles about the election. I'll read excerpts out loud occasionally.

The day after the debate, I'm going to ask what scares her about Obama. Gonna explain how his policies will be better for her than McCain's. See what her reaction is. If it ends up being what I think it may be (a hushed "He's black.") then it'll be that much easier to bring her over.
I doubt you bring her over. You will just bring her aside. She will likely not vote or vote third party. She won't be the only republican doing this either, these numbers might get really really big in the next month.
 

agrajag

Banned
ryutaro's mama said:
Yeah, I know.

But that's what makes this whole thing laughable.

White people can't just choose to not like Obama w/o looking or feeling like they are viewed as racists.

It's just this weird thing.

It was just totally unnecessary. It's like if she just told me she didn't like Obama she expected me to say "why, because he's black? RACIST!!!":lol
 

AniHawk

Member
GhaleonEB said:
Yup. 28 days is a long time in politics. About three weeks ago, this was tied. But if the polls don't budge much this week - after the brunt of this "terrorist" assault and the second debate where McCain is going to come out swinging with it - I'll be feeling pretty good.

But wow. Only 28 days to go. That's not very long. I just want to go to sleep and wake up on November 4th, and skip all the ugliness.

To think some of us have been following this since a year ago this time and longer. I personally didn't get in until the Iowa victory speech, and I didn't get that interested until after New Hampshire.

It's been a long, long campaign. Feels good to have it finally winding down. Glad the Angels lost so I can just focus my time on school, work, and the election.
 
thefit said:
You forget 9/11. We had a financial meltdown then and to prop it up Bush and co. came up with their hair brained Idea known as the "Ownership Society" plan. Everyone seems to just gloss over this nasty little nugget. Listen to the part where he talks about dismantling barriers that keep everyone from owning a Mcmansion. This is 2002.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW9viaJatpo

Huh, I never knew that. Neat!

The rest of it is right, though, right?
 
Outdoor Miner said:
Obama as a martyr would be 100x more effective than having him serve a presidential term. His death would bring about real revolution.

Which is precisely why he'll never be assassinated. So stop worrying.

i want that revolution without an assasination
 
AniHawk said:
To think some of us have been following this since a year ago this time and longer. I personally didn't get in until the Iowa victory speech, and I didn't get that interested until after New Hampshire.

It's been a long, long campaign. Feels good to have it finally winding down.

It's weird but a close analogy for me to what you're saying is TEAM USA Basketball.

I followed them since the FIBAS tournament in 2007 where they won the Gold up until Beijing.

I watched all their games and even went to an exhibition game in Las Vegas.

When they finally won in Beijing it was a total completion of the "journey" for me.
 

HylianTom

Banned
I can't ever bring-up or divulge my political persuasion here at work, and I'm the supervisor. Well, I can participate, but I'm very careful about how I operate at work; I've been absolutely cut-throat in the three years I've been here, and a political argument sure as hell isn't going to get in my way.

It kinda sucks - everyone else in the department will be absolutely buzzing about something that that has happened, and I just stand there and smile and nod, sometimes throwing-out a very neutral statement. Meanwhile, the political animal inside of me is going crazy. This stuff is in my blood, it was my undergrad major, I have all of these facts in my head, and I'm pretty sure I know more than 95% of my employees.. but I dare not wade into things.

Usually, the "make up a reason to walk away" option is best for preserving my sanity.
 

AniHawk

Member
ryutaro's mama said:
It's weird but a close analogy for me to what you're saying is TEAM USA Basketball.

I followed them since the FIBAS tournament in 2007 where they won the Gold up until Beijing.

I watched all their games and even went to an exhibition game in Las Vegas.

When they finally won in Beijing it was a total completion of the "journey" for me.

Yeah, that's a ton of dedication to following one thing, but imagine that plus the donation of money and time to canvass or phone bank or volunteer for whatever. I mean, this has been a long journey for a lot of people. And for some of them, this has probably even changed their lives.

I have more thoughts on the subject, but I'll save them for election day in the event Obama is elected President.
 
thefit said:
I know what you mean, I walked into my workplace with an Obama 7-11 coffee cup and it hasn't been the same for me since:lol

08-10_7election.jpg


Obama 58 McCain 42

I have no words....other than pitiful...
 

Piecake

Member
FlightOfHeaven said:
The way I understand this whole "Chain of Blame" is this:

Clinton encouraged banks to give subprime loans to poor people to enable them to acquire housing and stimulate that part of the market.

In 1999, lobbyists successfully removed a Great Depression era act (S?????-G????? Act) that enabled to give sub-prime mortgages to anyone without restrictions or checks.

Mortgage backed securities allowed banks to transfer the risk to other institutions entirely. By bundling good mortgages with stinkers, they got great ratings on the bundles, and were able to sell them easily. The elimination of risk/retribution further spurred banks to make loans to anyone for any amount. Some customers willingly took advantage of this, some of them used this to take out loans they thought they genuinely qualified for.

Big investment banks and financial institutions bought into the securities, seeing them as highly rewarding, low risk investments with sterling ratings.

Personally, I see the banks that churned out these mortgages as mostly responsible, then the legislators that removed all limits, then followed by credit ratings/big financial institutions for not checking up on what these things were, finally, by consumers that took advantage of the situation.

You really should listen to this

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=365

since Clinton encouraging banks to offer subprime loans had little to do with it since i believe that was only in relation to CRA loans. The problem started around 2000 when banks not regulated by the CRA started offering sub prime loans. Also, practically all economists agree that the 1999 bill actually helped to mitigate the current crisis.


first listen to "The Giant Pool of money"
 
ryutaro's mama said:
Be careful man.

You job ain't worth one extra vote. ;)

Hehe I've got job security. I'm the only one there who can do what I do, and training someone new would put the company way behind. Plus everyone likes me. I must be a nice guy or something on top of being a stellar employee.

Devilhawk, either way that'd be a win for Obama as far as I'm concerned. Even if I can't convert people over, if I can at least get a no-vote or third-party vote out of them, I'm pleased. Or a write-in, come to think of it, would work, too.
 

devilhawk

Member
Again, I don't think the CRA should be completely excused. It isn't the cause or maybe not even a major contributor to the crisis but it still should be added the laundry list of issues that led us to this mess. The CRA goes further back than Clinton even.
 

numble

Member
AniHawk said:
Yeah, that's a ton of dedication to following one thing, but imagine that plus the donation of money and time to canvass or phone bank or volunteer for whatever. I mean, this has been a long journey for a lot of people. And for some of them, this has probably even changed their lives.
This.

I've gone to Pennsylvania, Oregon, Nevada, and New Mexico for this guy, put in a ton of hours doing everything imaginable--running around some college on Pennsylvania primary day making sure everyone got to the polls, distributing as many Obama stickers and buttons as I can at a farmer's market in Oregon while Chelsea Clinton roams the grounds, providing water to people waiting hours in line at the largest Obama crowd in the US, registering a ton of voters in Las Vegas through a long summer, to helping get an office up and running in New Mexico. And of course, canvassing and phone-banking. I've started school again, so I can't do as much as before, but I'm not done yet.

It really will have been such a long journey.
At least I got to meet Barack.
 
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