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PoliGAF 2nd Pres. Debate 2008 Thread (DOW dropping, Biden is off to Home Depot)

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A

agrajag

Banned
MightyHedgehog said:
How is he sabotaging it?
Click to expand...

This.

The Repubs will feign faux outrage over anything. Have we forgotten the 'lipstick on a pig' thing already? What McCain and Palin are doing is despicable, and Lewis called them out on it. McCain turned around and called Lewis calling his actions despicable despicable. Just business as usual in the US Political circus.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Fragamemnon said:
PPP, Colorado, 10/8-10/10 , 1,331 LV (nice sample pool!):

Obama - 52
McCain - 42

Only 6% voters were undecided and of voters with a preference, only 6% are "soft". McCain would have to sweep all the undecideds and persuade all of the persuadable Obama voters to win if the numbers are really like this. Do or die time has now passed, IMO.
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Love PPP and their large sample sizes.

Through all of this I keep reminding myself that Obama only needs Kerry + IA, NM and CO to win. And he has all three in the bag.
 
S

Stoney Mason

Banned
Jason's Ultimatum said:
Interestingly enough, a few days ago on CNN, the governor of N.C. was on saying he saw a guy in his truck wearing his camo hat, shotgun behind him, and with two Obama stickers. It's good to see some rednecks with common sense. :D
Click to expand...

610x.jpg
 
J

Jason's Ultimatum

Member
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/did-mccain-just-walk-into-trap.html

Did McCain Just Walk Into a Trap?

So much for slow news days.

John Lewis's comments about the McCain campaign "playing with fire" are likely to dominate the news cycle for the next 24-48 hours, including the morning panel shows.

The conventional wisdom holds that, whenever the discussion turns to race, this tends to be detrimental to Obama, who for the most part has been scrupulously trying to avoid invoking racial themes into the campaign, at least through official channels. The previous time an issue like this came up, it coincided with a period in which Obama's lead in the polls was eroding.

This situation is liable to be a bit different, however.

Part of this is because Lewis is no ordinary surrogate. In fact, so far as I can tell, he is not really a surrogate at all, holding no official position with the Obama campaign. Moreover, Lewis is no Jesse Jackson, someone whom many Americans instinctively recoil from. On the contrary, Lewis is someone who McCain praised as one of the three wisest people in his life at Rick Warren's Saddleback Forum.

But also, take a look at the trailing paragraph in McCain's strongly-worded statement to the press today:


“I call on Senator Obama to immediately and personally repudiate these outrageous and divisive comments that are so clearly designed to shut down debate 24 days before the election. Our country must return to the important debate about the path forward for America.”
McCain is calling on Obama to repudiate Lewis's comments -- which of course is exactly what Obama should (and probably will) do. By calling on Obama to repudiate Lewis, however, McCain allows Obama to be the adult in the room. We have a pretty good idea of what Obama is liable to say:

"John Lewis is someone whom Senator McCain and I both admire greatly. But rhetoric like this is inappropriate and uncalled for, and I repudiate and reject his remarks. As Senator McCain says, this campaign should be about which candidate can best lead America forward in these difficult times, and there is simply no need to inject the racial politics of the past into a discussion about what is best for our country today. We look forward to a vigorous and civil discussion about these issues with Senator McCain over the final three weeks of the campaign."
Where is John McCain left once Obama does this? Obama gets to have a minor Sista Souljah moment, and also gets to concede McCain's argument that the campaign should be about the issues. So what happens the next time that the McCain campaign invokes Bill Ayers -- or Jeremiah Wright? McCain is not living up to his campaign's own standards -- which Obama has "generously" agreed to.

UPDATE: In the time that I was preparing this post, Obama spokesman Bill Burton put out a statement to Ben Smith at Politico:

Senator Obama does not believe that John McCain or his policy criticism is in any way comparable to George Wallace or his segregationist policies.

But John Lewis was right to condemn some of the hateful rhetoric that John McCain himself personally rebuked just last night, as well as the baseless and profoundly irresponsible charges from his own running mate that the Democratic nominee for President of the United States ‘pals around with terrorists.’
As Barack Obama has said himself, the last thing we need from either party is the kind of angry, divisive rhetoric that tears us apart at a time of crisis when we desperately need to come together. That is the kind of campaign Senator Obama will continue to run in the weeks ahead.
I do not quite agree with Smith's characterization that "Obama backs Lewis statement", as there is a bit more nuance in here. But clearly Burton was ceding less ground than I would have expected/recommended. Keep in mind, however, that the Obama campaign very frequently pulls a good cop/bad cop routine between its press shop and the candidate himself. So I would not be surprised if Obama finds an opportunity to field a question about Lewis at a forthcoming presser, and is somewhat more magnanimous in his remarks.

UPDATE #2: I don't know where people got the idea that *I* am disagreeing with Lewis. I am not -- I think Lewis is mostly right, although I think the invocation of George Wallace is a bit much. The whole point of the "trap", however, is that by ostensibly rejecting and repudiating Lewis -- by holding him to a higher standard -- Obama can in fact reject and repudiate the tactics of the McCain campaign, which is not living up to that standard.
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S

Stoney Mason

Banned
maximum360 said:
Wasn't it Toobin that said dems in congress are secrety hoping Franken loses so as not to encourage celebs to run for office and somehow taint the democratic party (as if they aren't doing a good job of it themselves). Thus, they'd rather have 58-59 senate seats than have Franken take them to 60 (I suppose for other reasons as well).
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That sounds idiotic. Toobin I mean not you if he said that.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
Jason's Ultimatum said:
Interestingly enough, a few days ago on CNN, the governor of N.C. was on saying he saw a guy in his truck wearing his camo hat, shotgun behind him, and with two Obama stickers. It's good to see some rednecks with common sense. :D
Click to expand...
NC WILL go blue this year. Mark my words.
 
T

Trakdown

Member
agrajag said:
This.

The Repubs will feign faux outrage over anything. Have we forgotten the 'lipstick on a pig' thing already? What McCain and Palin are doing is despicable, and Lewis called them out on it. McCain turned around and called Lewis calling his actions despicable despicable. Just business as usual in the US Political circus.
Click to expand...

They'd be alright if they came out and said, "Look, we know we took it too far. In that respect, I agree with Mr. Lewis. However, to compare our campaign to George Wallace's is unnecessary, especially in a time where our economy is costing Americans jobs and retirement funds."

This indignant response bullshit will end up hurting them.
 
G

greepoman

Member
captscience said:
Exactly. That was also the terrible "lockbox" debate.

Bush not only had tremendously low expectations working for him, but Gore handed him the debate on top off that. That debate was the game changer in 2000.
Click to expand...

The fact that Americans laughed at the idea of actually saving money and not touching it is pretty indicative of the whole reason we're in this mess today. Ironic, isn't it?
 
T

Trakdown

Member
greepoman said:
The fact that Americans laughed at the idea of actually saving money and not touching it is pretty indicative of the whole reason we're in this mess today. Ironic, isn't it?
Click to expand...

Just like McCain laughing off Obama's tire pressure and tune up advice.
 
J

Jason's Ultimatum

Member
greepoman said:
The fact that Americans laughed at the idea of actually saving money and not touching it is pretty indicative of the whole reason we're in this mess today. Ironic, isn't it?
Click to expand...

But supply-side economists say that when you give tax cuts, peoples' savings will increase!
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Diablos said:
But what would Fivethirtyeight and related websites say at these times during 2000? That's the important question...

As far as abortion talk goes, did I miss something? I'm too tired to backtrack. I must have, though.
Click to expand...

There is a separate thread for the Abortion discussion.
 
T

Trakdown

Member
Diablos said:
As far as abortion talk goes, did I miss something? I'm too tired to backtrack. I must have, though.
Click to expand...

Well, I can't speak for the mods, but I was fucking sick of it derailing the thread as we go in circles we went through the night before, especially when there's legit election news to report.
 
G

ghibli99

Member
Been out most of the day, and the first thing I read when I came back was the Palin/Flyers story about her resoundingly getting booed. Makes me happy that she chose to waste her time doing that.
 
J

Jason's Ultimatum

Member
Saint Gregory said:
I laughed until I remembered that McCain is still trying to sell this line of reasoning.
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Which is why I've been saying that Obama and his campaign needs to create an ad that shows everything supply-siders hold true to their hearts have been the opposite over the past 8 years. Obama needs to give speeches and bring it up next Wednesday during the final debate.
 
S

Stoney Mason

Banned
maximum360 said:
Toobin said this came from some dems higher up the chain.
Click to expand...


A.)It makes no sense because Republicans have had plenty of entertainer legislators including obviously the current governor of California and Ronald Reagan.
B.) Minnesota is Minnestoa. Not California.
C.) If celebrities were to run it would mostly be California centric anyway where celebrity isn't a stigma.
 
E

Evlar

Banned
GhaleonEB said:
Love PPP and their large sample sizes.

Through all of this I keep reminding myself that Obama only needs Kerry + IA, NM and CO to win. And he has all three in the bag.
Click to expand...
McCain was in Davenport today. He's still hoping for Iowa.
 
J

JB1981

Member
Someone explain to me how Obama is going to tax capital gains. My brother is an accountant and claims he is going to get taxed at 25%. For this reason and this reason alone, he is not voting for Obama. I know NOTHING about taxes.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
JB1981 said:
Someone explain to me how Obama is going to tax capital gains. My brother is an accountant and claims he is going to get taxed at 25%. For this reason and this reason alone, he is not voting for Obama. I know NOTHING about taxes.
Click to expand...
No one goes up to 25%. For families over $250k and individuals over $200k annual income, the rates increase from 15% to 20%. Below that, no change.

--- Families with incomes below $250,000 would pay current capital gains rates (a maximum tax of 15% on gains on assets held more than one year). Those earning more than $250,000 would face an increase -- a top rate of 20%.

--- The top dividend tax rate would remain the current 15% for those earning less than $250,000, but would rise to 20% for those earning above that threshold.

--- For single people, the tax increases above would apply to those earning more than $200,000.​

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2008/08/what-would-pres.html
 
L

LCfiner

Member
JB1981 said:
Someone explain to me how Obama is going to tax capital gains. My brother is an accountant and claims he is going to get taxed at 25%. For this reason and this reason alone, he is not voting for Obama. I know NOTHING about taxes.
Click to expand...


based on this

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf


stays the same if you make less than 250K. gets pushed up to 20% if you make over 250K

edit: beaten. still, click the link to print the pdf out for your brother :)
 
T

Tobor

Member
JB1981 said:
Someone explain to me how Obama is going to tax capital gains. My brother is an accountant and claims he is going to get taxed at 25%. For this reason and this reason alone, he is not voting for Obama. I know NOTHING about taxes.
Click to expand...

Obama's tax plan said:
o Capital Gains: Families with incomes below $250,000 will continue to pay the capital gains rates
that they pay today. For those in the top two income tax brackets – likewise adjusted to affect only
families over $250,000 – Obama will create a new top capital gains rate of 20 percent. Obama’s 20%
rate is equal is the lowest rate that existed in the 1990s and the rate that President Bush proposed in
2001. It is almost a third lower than the rate that President Reagan signed into law in 1986.vii
Click to expand...

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf

EDIT: beaten, but I'd like to add that Rush today told a listener that the Democrats don't mind taxing us all to hell because they'll leave the Capital Gains tax alone. Fact check, Rush!
 
The Chosen One

The Chosen One

Member
Looks like the Palin Philly hockey game is a wash or at least a slight positive for Palin:

AP:
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/27136268/

AP said:
GOP VP candidate met mostly with cheers during ceremonial honor
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But then in the very next sentence within the article they say:

AP said:
PHILADELPHIA - To a mixture of boos and cheers, Republican vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin dropped the ceremonial first puck Saturday night at the Philadelphia Flyers’ home opener against the New York Rangers.
Click to expand...

The upside for Obama supporters is that Obama/Biden sign is in just about all the official photos of the hockey puck drop. :lol
 
C

CharlieDigital

Banned
Stoney Mason said:
They really are going with that hair down look for Palin. I wonder what the psychological reasoning was for that.
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Hair up: more authoritarian, more of a projection of an image of power, more professional. Hair down: warmer, friendlier, approachable -- more hockey mom-like.
 
C

Cyan

Banned
JB1981 said:
Someone explain to me how Obama is going to tax capital gains. My brother is an accountant and claims he is going to get taxed at 25%. For this reason and this reason alone, he is not voting for Obama. I know NOTHING about taxes.
Click to expand...
Unless your bro makes more than $250k, he's ok. He's probably voting McCain for other reasons, and making excuses so as not to get into arguments with you.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
God he looks so much like a pedophile on top of just being a racist fuck! At least he seems to feel shame under the camera's lens.
 
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