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PoliGAF Interim Thread of cunning stunts and desperate punts

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S

Stoney Mason

Banned
Cooter said:
:lol

Point made. The dems will probably win but seeing the doubt creep in is entertaining.
Click to expand...

This is the same group that freaked out whenever Hillary had a positive news cycle and has a near coronary every time the polls even up. I wouldn't use them as a good method to measure anything.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
adamsappel said:
Nobody thought the gravy train would ride off the rails. I blame the banks more than the customers. Banks gave the loans at an (artificially?) low interest rate, which later on would rise precipitously, with perhaps a balloon payment. People who could afford the initial loan couldn't pay the raised rates and defaulted. I was half-listening to NPR today and someone said that most of the loans would still be active if the banks would just cut the rates. There's a foreclosed house next to me that has been empty for a year and isn't going to sell anytime soon. I would think the bank would have wanted some money towards the loan in that year. Instead, they own an albatross that will eventually get dumped for 1/4th of its value, and that will negatively affect my property values.
Click to expand...
This brings up another issue. All these mortgages were sold off to wall street and wall street sliced & diced them into these Mortgage Backed Obligations. Big diversified funds of thousands of different mortages.

And that works fine when people pay their mortgages . . . but when people started defaulting and wanting to make a deal with the holder of the loan . . . there was no single owner of the loan to negotiate with. There is some agent for collecting the payments but the actual loan had been diced up and held in little slices by many different holders. With no single holder of the loan, there was no simple way for the borrower and the lender to negotiated. How does the borrower deal with a thousand different banks that hold a slice of the loan and get them to all agree to a rate cut?
 
D

devilhawk

Member
CharlieDigital said:
The whole drilling thing came together in my mind based on some posts here the other day. It's not about US fuel costs. That's all a front. The current price of fuel is not being driven purely by demand; in a large part, it is being driven by speculation.

So what good will drilling do then? Why is the Republican leadership so willing to drill? Because there is nothing stopping them from selling the oil to China, India, and other developing nations. They don't want to drill to alleviate fuel prices in the US; individual corporations want to drill to make profits selling the oil overseas. Will it have a small impact on fuel prices? Yes, but not nearly the effect that people think it will or the Republicans (and these corporations) make it out to be.

IF they can pass a law that says that crude produced in the US cannot be sold to external markets as a prerequisite to expanded offshore drilling and drilling in environmentally sensitive areas, then I'll believe that they are genuine. But they won't! Because the whole point isn't to reduce fuel costs in the US...the additional supply will be so small that it'll barely make a dent! The reason for drilling is for these lobbyists and private companies to make a profit by selling it to other countries.
Click to expand...
Drilling isn't really all that important. I would actually like us to drill more and then place it all into our reserves. However, the US needs to take an all-of-the-above approach. The main problem now is that the people that need the energy don't live near it. The wind farms, the coal plants, the nuclear plants, and the hydroelectric damns are not all that close to the main cities. It is the whole NIMBY problem. Wind is the most affected by this now. There are wind farms that can't even send all the energy because the capacity of the lines are not great enough. It is going to take a HUGE infrastructure overhaul. This is the one of the first things that needs to be done. The current electricity grid is ridiculously outdated.
 
G

gkryhewy

Member
speculawyer said:
This brings up another issue. All these mortgages were sold off to wall street and wall street sliced & diced them into these Mortgage Backed Obligations. Big diversified funds of thousands of different mortages.

And that works fine when people pay their mortgages . . . but when people started defaulting and wanting to make a deal with the holder of the loan . . . there was no single owner of the loan to negotiate with. There is some agent for collecting the payments but the actual loan had been diced up and held in little slices by many different holders. With no single holder of the loan, there was no simple way for the borrower and the lender to negotiated. How does the borrower deal with a thousand different banks that hold a slice of the loan and get them to all agree to a rate cut?
Click to expand...

I don't think that's quite right. After all, the buyer is making payments to one specific party.
 
G

gcubed

Member
in my very limited skew of knowing exactly one vice principal of a local school... apparently teachers were quite up in arms after last night. Was the talk of the school, and not in a good way
 
J

Jason's Ultimatum

Member
speculawyer said:
Well, let's start with the fact that they are often not the sharpest knife in the drawer. How do you think they became sub-prime candidates. (Certainly not always true, but often.) So they often don't make great decisions.

But another thing is that housing loans are generally non-recourse loans. In fact every home loan in California is a non-recourse loan. That means, if the person defaults, the lender can only go after the property . . . not the person. So if I can't make my payments, I can just walk away . . . the bank can't take my car or inheritance or whatever. All the bank can get is the property. So if you put 10% down (or no money down) on a house and the house drops 20% in value such that your loan is bigger than the value of the house . . . why not walk?

The banks are often at fault for having made such loans . . . the person might actually being what is in their best interest.

(Actually, it isn't that easy . . . the Federal government may come after you and say that 'forgiven loan' was actually a gain . . . so you might have to pay taxes on the amount between the loan amount and the actually value of house given back to the bank. But that is a detail.)
Click to expand...

Well, I guess even though President Clinton made more homes affordable, he failed to make sure regulation was working to prevent the sub-prime mortgage crisis we have now. Then there's the repeal of the Banking Act of 1933, and the Bush Administration failing to deal with the crisis. Does that sound about right?
 
A

Arde5643

Member
gcubed said:
in my very limited skew of knowing exactly one vice principal of a local school... apparently teachers were quite up in arms after last night. Was the talk of the school, and not in a good way
Click to expand...
Can you please remind me again which speech last night was talking about education?
Did McCain or any surrogates bring up the NCLB crap again?
 
B

Barrett2

Member
gkrykewy said:
I don't think that's quite right. After all, the buyer is making payments to one specific party.
Click to expand...

Speculawyer is 1/2 right. The overall problem with the sub-prime market is that the loans were 'securitized,' bundling thousands of sub-prime mortgaes and selling them like stocks. As the demand for this product increased, it put more pressure on banks to create, advertise & sell more sub-prime mortgages to ever-riskier pools of borrowers.

Mortgage holders, however, still have an individual bank to bargain with, whoever currently holds the note, and the reality is that NO BANK wants to foreclose on anyone's house, it costs too much money. Banks would much rather negotiate with you to keep you in your house. The problem is that a slowing job market combined with adjustable rate mortgages that shot up to 9%+ left thousands of people incapable of paying their mortgage, and with home value prices falling, it became feasible for people to default on their mortgage rather than work with the bank in making token payments on a home worth less than when they bought it.
 
D

Dr_Cogent

Banned
gkrykewy said:
Yes, I believe she is an idiot. Perhaps we have different definitions of the term. She clearly is a functional member of society, and has made wealth for herself, but at the same time is hoping to make Alaska a functional refuge during the rapture, and is being sheltered from press exposure to a level not seen since Dan POTATOE Quayle. Idiot.
Click to expand...

What?
 
F

Femmeworth

Banned
gcubed said:
in my very limited skew of knowing exactly one vice principal of a local school... apparently teachers were quite up in arms after last night. Was the talk of the school, and not in a good way
Click to expand...
I kind of figured that would happen, while watching the speech last night. I have a family of teachers, I wonder how they reacted...
Guy Legend said:
The Biden speech today was fantastic.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26563623#26563623
Click to expand...
Damn, Biden's a good speaker.
 
F

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
What the hell is this ebay thing? When I read that she said that in the speech, I read it as a joke relating to the fact that the ex-ebay CEO spoke earlier.

I mean, I think she's an intolerable, malicious and generally horrible person, but this ebay uproar really seems to be stretching it...
 
C

CharlieDigital

Banned
devilhawk said:
This is the one of the first things that needs to be done. The current electricity grid is ridiculously outdated.
Click to expand...

YES, FUCK YES!

This is exactly what we need. This is everything that's right about liberalism!

It does several things:

1) It creates jobs that can't be outsourced. Building the infrastructure, installation and services, research, etc. We need this type of public investment.

2) It focuses on a leadership position in alternative energy development. No country can match the US in innovation if we put our minds to it. But we've been slacking off man! Developing the infrastructure and technologies here will allow us to develop the intellectual capital that will help create a new economy for the US. It's not the US that is alone in facing the energy crisis of the future, it's every single developed and developing nation in the fucking world! The biggest market of all for our technology: the entire fucking world! Fuck, we need to get this right! Imagine if Gore was elected and we had poured billions into developing the infrastructure, technology, and manufacturing pipeline for alternative energy technologies. How much intellectual capital could we have built in 8 fucking years?!?!?!

FUUUUUCK!! Now you see why us liberals lament the Bush win.

3) It shores up our national security. By decreasing the need for fossil fuels, we also decrease our security interests abroad. It means we can get the fuck out of the Middle East and basically break the cycle of tit-for-tat back and forth with various Middle Eastern countries/groups/terrorist organizations. Yes, we'll still have Israel to support, but without our hands meddling in other affairs, we'll have a much stronger deck to play.

YES, FUCK YES! Invest in the infrastructure!
 
S

speculawyer

Member
gkrykewy said:
I don't think that's quite right. After all, the buyer is making payments to one specific party.
Click to expand...
Yes, there is a single loan servicing agency that collects the checks and deposits them. However, the actual loan may be in a pool with thousands of other loans and shares of that loan pool are then sold. It's like sorta like a mutual fund but instead of lots of stocks, there are lots of mortgages in the pool and the fund holders each own a slice of the pool.

There are systems in place for dealing with defaults but they were not really designed to handle such a large volume since they didn't really expect more than just a few. So the system is very backlogged.

Sonnarat(sp?) had to deal with this when he put in a bid on a foreclosed house. He put in a bid but it took forever for the people holding the foreclosed house to deal with it.
 
V

ViperVisor

Member
Need to lay some high speed internet while we are at it. US broadband is piss compared to some other countries. You can drink it but I'd rather not.
 
C

Clevinger

Member
FlyinJ said:
What the hell is this ebay thing? When I read that she said that in the speech, I read it as a joke relating to the fact that the ex-ebay CEO spoke earlier.

I mean, I think she's an intolerable, malicious and generally horrible person, but this ebay uproar really seems to be stretching it...
Click to expand...

No, she actually did put it on Ebay, she just wasn't able to sell it. So it wasn't a joke. Then McCain claimed she sold it on ebay for a profit... Which is a lie. I guess it's part of their stump now.
 
M

mj1108

Member
FlyinJ said:
What the hell is this ebay thing? When I read that she said that in the speech, I read it as a joke relating to the fact that the ex-ebay CEO spoke earlier.

I mean, I think she's an intolerable, malicious and generally horrible person, but this ebay uproar really seems to be stretching it...
Click to expand...

Palin claims she ebayed a state jet when she became Governor. It turns out she put it on ebay but it never did sell on there and she sold it through other means.

We all want a President that can use ebay....RITE???
 
D

devilhawk

Member
CharlieDigital said:
YES, FUCK YES!

This is exactly what we need. This is everything that's right about liberalism!

It does several things:

1) It creates jobs that can't be outsourced. Building the infrastructure, installation and services, research, etc. We need this type of public investment.

2) It focuses on a leadership position in alternative energy development. No country can match the US in innovation if we put our minds to it. But we've been slacking off man! Developing the infrastructure and technologies here will allow us to develop the intellectual capital that will help create a new economy for the US. It's not the US that is alone in facing the energy crisis of the future, it's every single developed and developing nation in the fucking world! The biggest market of all for our technology: the entire fucking world! Fuck, we need to get this right! Imagine if Gore was elected and we had poured billions into developing the infrastructure, technology, and manufacturing pipeline for alternative energy technologies. How much intellectual capital could we have built in 8 fucking years?!?!?!

FUUUUUCK!! Now you see why us liberals lament the Bush win.

3) It shores up our national security. By decreasing the need for fossil fuels, we also decrease our security interests abroad. It means we can get the fuck out of the Middle East and basically break the cycle of tit-for-tat back and forth with various Middle Eastern countries/groups/terrorist organizations. Yes, we'll still have Israel to support, but without our hands meddling in other affairs, we'll have a much stronger deck to play.

YES, FUCK YES! Invest in the infrastructure!
Click to expand...
Well, I'd argue that isn't exclusively a liberalism position. It really is an American posistion.
 
P

PotatoeMasher

Member
Arde5643 said:
Can you please remind me again which speech last night was talking about education?
Did McCain or any surrogates bring up the NCLB crap again?
Click to expand...

Nope. McCain brought up school choice, which is a big win for him, despite upsetting all of the teacher unions out there.

NCLB is what you get when George Bush and Ted Kennedy work together.
 
C

CharlieDigital

Banned
devilhawk said:
Well, I'd argue that isn't exclusively a liberalism position. It really is an American posistion.
Click to expand...

Then why hasn't it been the Bush position? The Republicans and the free market have had 8 fucking years to take a position on this and the best that he can come up with is: Drill Baby, Drill!? The Republican/Libertarian position says: let the free market take care of it OR we'll DRILL for MORE oil (you know, instead of investing in alternatives)! The Liberal position says: no, we need to put all of our effort into it collectively as a nation for the good of every person in the country, even if it means more government spending and government incentives. No, we're not going to put the environment at risk for a short term solution to a long term problem. No, we're going to put the collective effort and might of the nation into a working solution that will benefit not just us, but the rest of the world.
 
C

crisdecuba

Member
devilhawk said:
I don't really like your McCain summaries for 2 and 3


Interesting to note they both want to streamline the financial aide process. Obama wants to just give out 4000 in tax credit to parents while McCain wants to help those same parents get the tax credits that are actually already in place.

There are two basic facts about education and health care in their current forms. They are 1. a mess and 2. not going to be fixed by throwing more money at it. Quite a bit of Obama's reforms come attached with dollar signs of varying amounts.
Click to expand...

#2 was this one:
Improve Information for Parents
Institutions report on hundreds of factors to the U.S. government every year, but the government does nothing with the information. Making this information available to families in a clear and concise manner will help more students make more informed choices about higher education.

Generally speaking, McCain wants to streamline/simplify, eliminate earmarks, and increase lending through private lenders.

Obama wants to streamline/simplify, provide money to help pay for tuition, and reduce lending through private lenders.

I prefer Obama.
 
D

devilhawk

Member
soul creator said:
charliedigital, the free market will create infrastructure on its own

teehee
Click to expand...
You say that and laugh, but this entire recent upswing of need for advancement for renewable energy was because of the free market. The free market will fix this problem eventually, just look at people like Pickens and his ideas.
 
D

devilhawk

Member
crisdecuba said:
I prefer Obama.
Click to expand...
obama_avatar.jpg
 
V

voodoojohn

Banned
I'm not so worried about the election. It looks like Iowa and New Mexico are going to be solidly blue this year, meaning that if Obama can hold on to New Hampshire, he'll only need Colorado among all the other toss up states to secure victory. Important toss ups are: Colorado, Nevada, Ohio, and Virginia (assuming GOP victories in FL and MO)... and Obama can lose all but Colorado and still win the election.

I'm predicting Obama wins more than one of those toss ups, competes but ultimately loses in Florida and Missouri, and ends up winning the election by a much larger margin than most of us are thinking.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
devilhawk said:
This is the one of the first things that needs to be done. The current electricity grid is ridiculously outdated.
Click to expand...
Instead of the giving of tax-rebates, some infrastructure works projects would have been much better. Instead of the money instantly disappearing overseas as what happens when someone takes their tax-rebate check and buys a plasma TV made in China, a works project employs people in the USA directly.

a DC-based transmission system to move electricity generated by windpower in the center of the country to the coasts should be examined at least. I mean jeez . . . when you have a Texas oil billionaire telling you that you can't drill your way out of the problem, you should really listen.
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Interesting. No wonder McCain believes that the economy is strong... BMWs sales increased 2% over the same period a year ago.

I don't recall BMWs getting any cheaper, though!
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
devilhawk said:
Well of course America is founded on liberal ideals. No one really is completely laissez faire and for complete deregulation. The whole traditional viewpoints of democrat and republican are to decide to what extent that liberal policies are needed.
Click to expand...

I have some bad news to tell you...
 
L

laserbeam

Banned
Arde5643 said:
Can you please remind me again which speech last night was talking about education?
Did McCain or any surrogates bring up the NCLB crap again?
Click to expand...

McCain said teachers who suck and dont perform need to get the hell out and find a new job. Obviously not gonna be popular with the shitty teachers as well as stressing the need for more choices for parents so they have options.

I found his education comments to be pretty good and the fact he flat out said underperforming teachers need to find a new field of work was refreshing. Didnt beat around the bush to appease the teacher union
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Clevinger said:
Then McCain claimed she sold it on ebay for a profit... Which is a lie. I guess it's part of their stump now.
Click to expand...

WTF? He's ad-libbing facts? I can see him assuming it was eventually sold on eBay by why would he assume a profit?

We really do not need more leaders that believe facts that are not true. (WMDs, ties to Al-Qeada, etc.)
 
D

devilhawk

Member
crisdecuba said:
Come on, reply to my point.
Click to expand...
Well you never got passed my first one. Obama has a lot of education reforms where he is throwing money at the problem. Yes, he may be thoughtfully aiming it, but it still doesn't fix the problem. Money isn't the answer to fix education no matter if it is a republican or democrat doing it. I'm not saying McCain's stance is any better.
 
S

soul creator

Member
devilhawk said:
Well of course America is founded on liberal ideals. No one really is completely laissez faire and for complete deregulation. The whole traditional viewpoints of democrat and republican are to decide to what extent that liberal policies are needed.
Click to expand...

unfortunately, Republican (and even some Democratic) policies over the past 30 years have generally been faaar away from those supposedly "American" values.
 
G

Gary Whitta

Member
Biden +1000000000

I'm almost starting to wonder why he didn't do better in the primaries, the guy is a firebrand speaker, really electrifying when he wants to be.
 
C

crisdecuba

Member
devilhawk said:
Well you never got passed my first one. Obama has a lot of education reforms where he is throwing money at the problem. Yes, he may be thoughtfully aiming it, but it still doesn't fix the problem. Money isn't the answer to fix education no matter if it is a republican or democrat doing it. I'm not saying McCain's stance is any better.
Click to expand...
That's the part I don't understand... why is lowering the cost of higher education a bad thing to include as part your higher education plans?
 
S

speculawyer

Member
lawblob said:
Speculawyer is 1/2 right. The overall problem with the sub-prime market is that the loans were 'securitized,' bundling thousands of sub-prime mortgaes and selling them like stocks. As the demand for this product increased, it put more pressure on banks to create, advertise & sell more sub-prime mortgages to ever-riskier pools of borrowers.

Mortgage holders, however, still have an individual bank to bargain with, whoever currently holds the note, and the reality is that NO BANK wants to foreclose on anyone's house, it costs too much money. Banks would much rather negotiate with you to keep you in your house. The problem is that a slowing job market combined with adjustable rate mortgages that shot up to 9%+ left thousands of people incapable of paying their mortgage, and with home value prices falling, it became feasible for people to default on their mortgage rather than work with the bank in making token payments on a home worth less than when they bought it.
Click to expand...
I'd love to learn more if know about this. Isn't there limits on how much the agency that is collecting on the note can bargain? Otherwise, the holders of the mortgage pool securities have no control over their investment at all.


Another aspect of this crisis has been the feed-back effect. As more people defaulted and foreclosed properties hit the market, that pushes prices down more. Then suddenly more people find themselves in under-water loans . . . so they walk. Which drives prices down even more feeding the cycle. No one knows if we have hit bottom and if we haven't, how much further things may drop.
 
A

Agent Icebeezy

Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Gary Whitta said:
Biden +1000000000

I'm almost starting to wonder why he didn't do better in the primaries, the guy is a firebrand speaker, really electrifying when he wants to be.
Click to expand...


Couldn't raise money. That was his issue.
 
D

devilhawk

Member
crisdecuba said:
That's the part I don't understand... why is lowering the cost of higher education a bad thing to include as part your higher education plans?
Click to expand...
It is a slippery slope for one. Why not just make college free? Secondly, it historically hasn't worked.
 
C

crisdecuba

Member
devilhawk said:
It is a slippery slope for one. Why not just make college free? Secondly, it historically hasn't worked.
Click to expand...
Slippery slope aside (congress would not allow for a very long slide down that slope), can you give some example of it historically not working? The only example that comes to mind is the GI Bill, which I've always heard was beneficial.
 
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