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[Trakdown]

Sure you can. He lost 5 fighter jets. He was 4th from last in his graduating class from whatever military academy he went to. (Naval academy I guess?)

Some of his military writings seem to indicate that he is often more concerned about "winning" than doing what is best for the country. These are not football games. Even Saint Patraeus is basically saying that we can't really ever declare "victory" in Iraq. It just isn't that kind of war.

This really isn't swift-boating- it's just another POW saying McCain shouldn't be near the button BECAUSE of the POW experience. The Repubs were outright saying Kerry was a liar about his service and a disgrace to his guard. It's nowhere near the same, unless Dems start wearing fake bamboo cages made of light yellow nerf.

Oh, and Saint Patraeus has gone the way of St. Christopher, I'm afraid. He was replaced today.

 

[TDG]

I'm sure the campaign will spin it as 'passionate.'

*In gravelly, concerned voice* "Why can't Barack Obama get passionate about the future of our country? Barack Obama may sleep during debates, but we can't afford to let him sleep in the white house."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdzeTq6YPg0

Brave New PAC ad, for anybody who wants to see it.

Ooh, that's nasty. Awesome. I think it both consciously and sub-consciously concerns voters about McCain's ability to lead.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Ooh, that's nasty. Awesome. I think it both consciously and sub-consciously concerns voters about McCain's ability to lead.

I don't like it. It ties into a theme Obama has been making - that McCain does not have the "temperament" to be president, but goes after his POW experience, which Obama would never do. It could be a big distraction.

 

[Instigator]

Is this old?

http://www.observer.com/2008/politics/new-york-dems-help-obama-sullying

"The New York State Democratic Party will officially not be coordinating with Barack Obama’s campaign because the state party here still accepts money from lobbyists, and the presidential nominee's campaign does not."

I'm not sure why Obama doesn't play this up more. McCain keeps going on and on about Obama never going against his party, but Obama can really play cards like these. When he got the nomination, he ordered the DNC to stop accepting lobbyist and PAC money. He will not work with state Democratic Party's that accept lobbyist money.

Not only does it play a "maverick" angle, it also highlights all the lobbyist ties that McCain and the RNC have.

Probably because McCain 'going against his party' is in the past while Obama pushing this would be going against his party right now, hypothetically raising Obama's profile but bringing other Democrats down who are also trying to get elected. Not too smart in the grand scheme of things.

 

[ArtG]

Sure you can. He lost 5 fighter jets. He was 4th from last in his graduating class from whatever military academy he went to. (Naval academy I guess?)

He didn't lose five fighter jets.

And even if he did, oh well. Saying he lost five fighter jets, saying that he graduated at the bottom of his class, saying he's "mentally unstable"...to me, they seem like losing arguments that turn people off from voting and plays to your base.

His service isn't a reason why he should be President--but it isn't a reason why he shouldn't be either.

There are plenty of policy positions that you can take without attacking what the man has done for his country in the armed services.

 

[TDG]

Well . . . I'm not sure I can fault him for that. I think Mittens could drive me insane too.

Mittens reminds me of a car salesman. Even if I hate what he's saying, something about him just lures me in closer... closer... then something snaps in my head and I change the channel.

Even your opponent's mental capacity? As in, the guy isn't just wrong: He is crazy to the point that he can't make a decision on whether or not he wants to blow up the world.

Do you know how many people would be bitching and moaning (and rightfully so) in here if an attack group came out with an ad saying:

"Do you want Barack Obama--AN UN-AMERICAN TERRORIST MUSLIM--as your President?"

Neither are right.

Well remember, this is just one guy's opinion of McCain, they aren't flat out saying: "John McCain is x, y, and z."

 

[Xisiqomelir]

Wait, so you can only be sexist about Repblican women? Or maybe I am mangling this - any criticism of a female, even in a context where another female is being buoyed as substantive in the same context, is sexist? I can't even being to figure out her point, other than, "I am right wing."

Carly Fiorina has no points.

For proof of her solid fascist Republican credentials, go read the articles about how she'd stalk the corridors of HP with bodyguards in front of her shoving engineers into the walls.

 

[Barrett2]

The PLO? Do they even exist anymore?

Thanks to Bush's push for democracy in the Middle East, the PLO was DEMOCRATICALLY replaced with a much worse controlling party. Ahh Bush, everywhere you look you can see his failed policies. :lol

 

[TDG]

I don't like it. It ties into a theme Obama has been making - that McCain does not have the "temperament" to be president, but goes after his POW experience, which Obama would never do. It could be a big distraction.

Well, distractions are all that wins elections these days.

It seems fairly backfire-proof as well, it's quite a bit tamer than the swift boat ads, and the group that made them isn't associated with Obama, so he'll just denounce the ads and he's got the criticism for the ads dodged, just as Bush did in 2004.

 

[AniHawk]

Carly Fiorina has no points.

For proof of her solid fascist Republican credentials, go read the articles about how she'd stalk the corridors of HP with bodyguards in front of her shoving engineers into the walls.

...

...Really?

 

[laserbeam]

Obama Tried To stall Iraq Withdrawl.

WHILE campaigning in public for a speedy withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, Sen. Barack Obama has tried in private to persuade Iraqi leaders to delay an agreement on a draw-down of the American military presence.

"He asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington," Zebari said in an interview

Obama insisted that Congress should be involved in negotiations on the status of US troops - and that it was in the interests of both sides not to have an agreement negotiated by the Bush administration in its "state of weakness and political confusion."

Though Obama claims the US presence is "illegal," he suddenly remembered that Americans troops were in Iraq within the legal framework of a UN mandate. His advice was that, rather than reach an accord with the "weakened Bush administration," Iraq should seek an extension of the UN mandate.

While in Iraq, Obama also tried to persuade the US commanders, including Gen. David Petraeus, to suggest a "realistic withdrawal date." They declined.

 

[ArtG]

Well remember, this is just one guy's opinion of McCain, they aren't flat out saying: "John McCain is x, y, and z."

This really isn't swift-boating- it's just another POW saying McCain shouldn't be near the button BECAUSE of the POW experience. The Repubs were outright saying Kerry was a liar about his service and a disgrace to his guard. It's nowhere near the same, unless Dems start wearing fake bamboo cages made of light yellow nerf.

Very few elected Republicans towed the Swift-Boat lines. (John McCain was one that defended Kerry against them.)

And Swift-Boaters weren't "lying", because it was just their collective opinion that John Kerry was a liar about his service and a disgrace to his guard, just like it's this guys opinion that John McCain shouldn't be President because he's a nutcase.

You can't defend this if you complained about the Swift-Boat crap. Both are sickening.

 

[AniHawk]

Obama Tried To stall Iraq Withdrawl.

WHILE campaigning in public for a speedy withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, Sen. Barack Obama has tried in private to persuade Iraqi leaders to delay an agreement on a draw-down of the American military presence.

"He asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington," Zebari said in an interview

Obama insisted that Congress should be involved in negotiations on the status of US troops - and that it was in the interests of both sides not to have an agreement negotiated by the Bush administration in its "state of weakness and political confusion."

Though Obama claims the US presence is "illegal," he suddenly remembered that Americans troops were in Iraq within the legal framework of a UN mandate. His advice was that, rather than reach an accord with the "weakened Bush administration," Iraq should seek an extension of the UN mandate.

While in Iraq, Obama also tried to persuade the US commanders, including Gen. David Petraeus, to suggest a "realistic withdrawal date." They declined.

People sorta almost killed JohnTinker for this earlier this morning. Just a heads up.

 

[Krowley]

Obama Tried To stall Iraq Withdrawl.

Interesting.

 

[avatar299]

Sure you can. He lost 5 fighter jets. He was 4th from last in his graduating class from whatever military academy he went to. (Naval academy I guess?)

Some of his military writings seem to indicate that he is often more concerned about "winning" than doing what is best for the country. These are not football games. Even Saint Patraeus is basically saying that we can't really ever declare "victory" in Iraq. It just isn't that kind of war.

If you attack McCain on his service you will lose. Only the most ardent Obama supporters think his military service is a flaw.

What Obama should attack is the # of republicans leaving the party. Independents tend to lean conservative, and if Obama can make the the republican party look rudderless than it would be a big blow.

That what Palin has really done, given a party a direction. However that direction isn't what many independents want I believe, and If Obama can successfully make the case that Palin and McCain are out of touch economically and socially than he can secure a safe victory.

Not that he isn't going to win right now.

 

[mclem]

In his defense, if I recall correctly, McCain used "the change we need" at the end of his awful green-screen speech on the day Obama clinched the nomination.

I don't recall that. I do recall a lot of "That's not change we can believe in", followed by a rictus grin.

 

[Tamanon]

Obama Tried To stall Iraq Withdrawl.

WHILE campaigning in public for a speedy withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, Sen. Barack Obama has tried in private to persuade Iraqi leaders to delay an agreement on a draw-down of the American military presence.

"He asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington," Zebari said in an interview

Obama insisted that Congress should be involved in negotiations on the status of US troops - and that it was in the interests of both sides not to have an agreement negotiated by the Bush administration in its "state of weakness and political confusion."

Though Obama claims the US presence is "illegal," he suddenly remembered that Americans troops were in Iraq within the legal framework of a UN mandate. His advice was that, rather than reach an accord with the "weakened Bush administration," Iraq should seek an extension of the UN mandate.

While in Iraq, Obama also tried to persuade the US commanders, including Gen. David Petraeus, to suggest a "realistic withdrawal date." They declined.

Already been refuted. It was tied to the talk that any standing agreement on forces should go before Congress to be ratified, since it would be a treaty.

 

[AniHawk]

Interesting.

Very very interesting...

But stupit!

 

[AniHawk]

I don't recall that. I do recall a lot of "That's not change we can believe in", followed by a rictus grin.

Yeah, and at the end of his speech he finished with, "and THAT'S the kind of change we need." Jon Stewart made a point about it.

The nasal laugh and scary grin makes me laugh thinking back on it.

 

[Barrett2]

This really isn't swift-boating- it's just another POW saying McCain shouldn't be near the button BECAUSE of the POW experience. The Repubs were outright saying Kerry was a liar about his service and a disgrace to his guard. It's nowhere near the same, unless Dems start wearing fake bamboo cages made of light yellow nerf.

Oh, and Saint Patraeus has gone the way of St. Christopher, I'm afraid. He was replaced today.

It would have been disgraceful, but god damn that would have made for an entertaining convention! :lol

 

[speculawyer]

He didn't lose five fighter jets.

The one shot out from under him was clearly not his fault. I've seen varying reports from pilots on the others though. These things are not clear cut . . . it seems strange that he gets so many of these defective engines. And I find it a bit odd for that 'fact check' site to cite McCains's own book as one of sources. :lol

 

[TDG]

You can't defend this if you complained about the Swift-Boat crap. Both are sickening.

In 2004, I was starting to get over the whole "let's just run nice campaigns okay," thing. By this point, I've given up. Yeah it's sickening, yeah prsidential campaigns shouldn't be run this way, but that's the way politics is now, and I'm not going to resist, because I'd rather the dems rip McCain to shreds and have Obama win than have the dems once again try to just run a nice, fair campaign and see McCain have a chance to fuck up this country even more.

Besides, as someone who genuinely enjoys politics, I love seeing stuff like this. It's fascinating stuff.

 

[Krowley]

Very very interesting...

But stupit!

Sounds pretty bad on the surface, but I'll take your word for it.

I remember when Obama was talking about not wanting anything signed without congressional approval so I suppose this would fit with that.

 

[TDG]

If you attack Kerry on his service you will lose. Only the most ardent Bush supporters think his military service is a flaw.

Fixed for 2004 alternate PoliGAF filled with conservatives.

 

[Stinkles]

Carly Fiorina reminds me of a Spore bicycle. Spinning and horribly unnatural.

 

[Cheebs]

New Rasmussen polls:

Colorado McCain + 3
Ohio McCain + 3
Virginia Tied



Sucks about Colorado, last week Rasmussen had Obama up 3.

 

[Tamanon]

Sounds pretty bad on the surface, but I'll take your word for it.

I remember when Obama was talking about not wanting anything signed without congressional approval.

Which is true. Why would anyone in Congress want just the President negotiating long-term treaties with foreign countries? The Executive branch already took way too much power, no need to let them bog us down wherever they want.:lol

 

[Stinkles]

The one shot out from under him was clearly not his fault. I've seen varying reports from pilots on the others though. These things are not clear cut . . . it seems strange that he gets so many of these defective engines. And I find it a bit odd for that 'fact check' site to cite McCains's own book as one of sources. :lol

He's going to lose the Superstitious vote with that kind of luck.

 

[Stoney Mason]

Already been refuted. It was tied to the talk that any standing agreement on forces should go before Congress to be ratified, since it would be a treaty.

But it makes better spin if you say it like that damn Obama doesn't care about the troops rather than the rule of law!

 

[Lemonz]

Obama Rally

http://www.cnn.com/video/live/live.html?stream=stream1

 

[ArtG]

The one shot out from under him was clearly not his fault. I've seen varying reports from pilots on the others though. These things are not clear cut . . . it seems strange that he gets so many of these defective engines. And I find it a bit odd for that 'fact check' site to cite McCains's own book as one of sources. :lol

FactCheck.org is pretty respected for calling out both sides. I have no reason to question them.

 

[speculawyer]

If you attack McCain on his service you will lose. Only the most ardent Obama supporters think his military service is a flaw.

I certainly don't think it is a flaw . . . but everything gets scrutiny.

Jeez . . . the GOP won with this shit:

 

[Krowley]

Fixed for 4 years ago alternate PoliGAF filled with conservatives.

Kerry did not lose because of the swiftboat thing.

He lost because he's John kerry (no charisma and poor debate performances), and Katrina hadn't happened yet, and because of ballot initiatives that brought out the christian right in key states.

the swiftboat thing was a minor distraction at most

 

[ArtG]

In 2004, I was starting to get over the whole "let's just run nice campaigns okay," thing. By this point, I've given up. Yeah it's sickening, yeah prsidential campaigns shouldn't be run this way, but that's the way politics is now, and I'm not going to resist, because I'd rather the dems rip McCain to shreds and have Obama win than have the dems once again try to just run a nice, fair campaign and see McCain have a chance to fuck up this country even more.

Besides, as someone who genuinely enjoys politics, I love seeing stuff like this. It's fascinating stuff.

You can be tough and hard-hitting without assassinating the character of the other guy.

 

[speculawyer]

He's going to lose the Superstitious vote with that kind of luck.

He locked down the superstitious vote with Palin.

 

[gkryhewy]

Obama Tried To stall Iraq Withdrawl.

WHILE campaigning in public for a speedy withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, Sen. Barack Obama has tried in private to persuade Iraqi leaders to delay an agreement on a draw-down of the American military presence.

You have officially jumped the shark.

 

[TDG]

Kerry did not lose because of the swiftboat thing.

He lost because he's John kerry (no charisma and poor debate performances), and Katrina hadn't happened yet, and because of ballot initiatives that brought out the christian right in key states.

the swiftboat thing was a minor distraction at most

All the things you listed contributed to his loss, of course it wasn't any one thing. But you can't argue that the swift boating changed the way many people looked at Kerry very early on in the race.

 

[speculawyer]

Kerry did not lose because of the swiftboat thing.

He lost because he's John kerry (no charisma and poor debate performances), and Katrina hadn't happened yet, and because of ballot initiatives that brought out the christian right in key states.

the swiftboat thing was a minor distraction at most

Well the swiftboating didn't seem to hurt Bush. And it wasn't the debate performance as Kerry was judged to largely win those. He certainly did lack charisma.

 

[AniHawk]

New Rasmussen polls:

Colorado McCain + 3
Ohio McCain + 3
Virginia Tied



Sucks about Colorado, last week Rasmussen had Obama up 3.

Hey what the fuck's going on in CO?! Is it the bigger sampling of Republicans at work?

Last Rasmussen had Obama down by two in VA and down by 7 in OH though. So... yay?

Rasmussen + SUSA for VA is kinda positive at least.

 

[WrikaWrek]

Obama Tried To stall Iraq Withdrawl.

WHILE campaigning in public for a speedy withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, Sen. Barack Obama has tried in private to persuade Iraqi leaders to delay an agreement on a draw-down of the American military presence.

"He asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington," Zebari said in an interview

Obama insisted that Congress should be involved in negotiations on the status of US troops - and that it was in the interests of both sides not to have an agreement negotiated by the Bush administration in its "state of weakness and political confusion."

Though Obama claims the US presence is "illegal," he suddenly remembered that Americans troops were in Iraq within the legal framework of a UN mandate. His advice was that, rather than reach an accord with the "weakened Bush administration," Iraq should seek an extension of the UN mandate.

While in Iraq, Obama also tried to persuade the US commanders, including Gen. David Petraeus, to suggest a "realistic withdrawal date." They declined.

Lol, you fail so hard. Sucks to be you.

 

[Frank the Great]

I wish Rasmussen would release their fucking internals. It's really messed up that they don't, and I don't see the logic behind it, unless they are purposefully manipulating shit.

 

[speculawyer]

Oh, and Saint Patraeus has gone the way of St. Christopher, I'm afraid. He was replaced today.

Patraeus was promoted to head of CentCom. He now runs both the Iraq and Afghan wars.

 

[Trakdown]

Very few elected Republicans towed the Swift-Boat lines. (John McCain was one that defended Kerry against them.)

And Swift-Boaters weren't "lying", because it was just their collective opinion that John Kerry was a liar about his service and a disgrace to his guard, just like it's this guys opinion that John McCain shouldn't be President because he's a nutcase.

You can't defend this if you complained about the Swift-Boat crap. Both are sickening.

Okay, huge problems here.

First, yes, they were lying. They've long been debunked, and military records supported Kerry.
http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html

It was a smear campaign, one that's revving up to go after Obama next. This is a 527, that's what they do.

Now, this ad: Is it saying McCain was dishonorable? No. Is it accusing him of fluffing up his service record? No. Is it flat out saying he didn't do what he said he did in 'Nam? No.
It's not even questioning his service, but his state of mind.

What it's saying is something I've always agreed with: There's nothing about being a POW that inherently makes you presidential material. In fact, considering the physical and mental traumas of being a POW, most wouldn't recommend being responsible for the well-being of millions. And McCain has long had temperamental problems, even when he was in the academy.

These problems are still visible today and WILL affect us should he be elected. I'm not saying this should be the main attack against him, but it does add to what should be: his judgment.

 

[Frank the Great]

Fuck.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...smussen_swing_state_polling_september_14_2008

The biggest change is found in Colorado where it’s now McCain 48% and Obama 46%. A week ago, Obama had a three-point edge in this western state. The current results are similar to the Rasmussen Reports Colorado polling conducted in August, just before the Democratic convention was held in Denver.

McCain now holds a 49% to 44% advantage in Florida. Last week the candidates were tied at 48% in the Sunshine State.

In Ohio, McCain continues to have the advantage, 48% to 45%. That’s closer than the results from last week which showed McCain with a 51% to 44% advantage.

Virginia and Pennsylvania are both tied. Last week McCain was up by two in Virginia and Obama was up two in Pennsylvania.

These state results remain consistent with national polling trends as McCain currently holds a slight advantage in the Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll. In fact, current national polling shows a race nearly identical to the final results for Election 2004. Not surprisingly, therefore, the Electoral College map is shaping up to look a lot like the map from four years ago.

Of the five states in the Fox News/Rasmussen Reports polling, three are very similar to their results from four years ago, Virginia is looking better for the Democrats at the moment, and Pennsylvania is looking better for the Republicans.

A number of other themes emerge from the data that are worth noting:

· Roughly one-in-five voters say they could still change their mind before voting. This large number of potentially persuadable voters places enormous importance on the debates which begin a week from Friday.

· Ohio voters are less certain of their vote than those in other states. Thirty percent (30%) in the Buckeye State say they could change their mind.

· In all five states, McCain continues to be viewed more favorably—and trusted more-- than Obama.

· The number who would not be comfortable with Obama as President is at 40% or 41% in every state.

· The number not comfortable with a President McCain ranges from 33% to 36%. This is consistent with national polling data released today showing that more voters believe McCain is prepared to be President.

· Voters are generally more comfortable with the idea of a President Biden than a President Obama. The number uncomfortable with the idea of Biden in the Oval Office ranges from 26% to 33%.

· Voters are less comfortable with idea of a President Palin than a President Biden.

· In fact, Palin’s numbers are closer to Obama’s than Biden’s. The number uncomfortable with a President Palin ranges from 38% to 45% in the five states polled this week.

· The Republican support for McCain is quite stable. The modest changes from week-to-week can generally be found in changes among Democrats and unaffiliated voters.

· Obama has the edge among unaffiliated voters in two states, McCain in two, and they are even in one. Nationally, McCain has a slight advantage among unaffiliated voters.

· In Pennsylvania, there was a three point decline in the number of undecideds along with a two point increase in support for McCain.

· In Ohio, there was a three point increase in the number of undecideds along with a three point decline in support for McCain.

· In Colorado, Nader’s support when up three percentage points while Obama’s went down three.

· Economic issues are the top issue in all five states with national security matters a distant second.

Things to Look For

John McCain’s convention bounce has already lasted longer than Obama’s. Will it hold up until the debates or will support for the GOP standard bearer begin to recede in the battleground states?

Also, will Virginia and Pennsylvania continue to tilt against their traditional partisan leanings?

More than anything else, however, the data highlights the importance of the debates. The most important thing to look for will be public reaction to those possibly decisive events.

Fucking Nader! And WTF at PA tied!?

 

[Cheebs]

I wish Rasmussen would release their fucking internals. It's really messed up that they don't, and I don't see the logic behind it, unless they are purposefully manipulating shit.

Why would they manipulate CO to be pro-McCain but give Obama a bump in OH and VA? I doubt they are messing around to help McCain based on their OH and VA numbers.

 

[Byakuya769]

Obama Tried To stall Iraq Withdrawl.

LOL welcome to Limbaugh Parrot #1's post circa 11am this morning.

Did you just hear this on Hannity or something?

 

[Barrett2]

Fuck.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...mussen_polling/fox_rasmussen_swing_st_14_2008



Fucking Nader! And WTF at PA tied!?

If Obama loses this election because of Nader, I would fear for the man's safety... possibly from me.

 

[Frank the Great]

Why would they manipulate CO to be pro-McCain but give Obama a bump in OH and VA? I doubt they are messing around to help McCain based on their OH and VA numbers.

I'm just saying that they should really just reveal their internals. It would provide so much more insight.

I didn't mean they were manipulating to make things look better for McCain...I meant they were manipulating things so that people simply talk about the percentage shifts instead of any underlying trends, demographic shifts, etc. Results in poli-trolls using numbers without having to think much.

 

[Tamanon]

Did you just hear this on Hannity or something?

Actually it's on Drudge, that's probably where he saw it One of those ubiquitous items labeled "Paper" or "Analysis"

 

[Xisiqomelir]