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PoliGAF Interim Thread of cunning stunts and desperate punts

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JayDubya

Banned
CharlieDigital said:
That's quite general.

How about this, then. I expect them to do their job and protect the law of the land from infringement and shut down programs that violate it. Instead, they make new law that no one can change except for themselves, and even then, they cry "precedent."

Commerce Clause: GONZALES. The use of medicinal marijuana that you grow yourself violates interstate commerce. Give me a fucking break. Stevens, Ginsberg, Souter, Breyer. Scalia, too, because he's an authoritarian bastard.

2nd: Don't even get me started. Heller was limp-wristed.

5th: KELO. The use of eminent domain to take from one person to give to another for economic development? Great. Need I go on with more, or is listing something recent and wholly repugnant enough?

8th: Minor point, but your team thinks cruel and unusual means whatever they think is cruel and unusual.

9th: This is where the worst abuses happen. The people have whatever rights we say they do. The Constitution says whatever we say it does. The Supremacy Clause means that no lesser government can defy us.

10th: Doesn't exist. The States exist to serve their master, the Federal Government, which has whatever power it says it does.

I really don't understand why that would be a good thing. I'm willing to hear you out, but if all it comes down to is babies, guns, and your right to own a fully automatic assault rifle, well, then I have a fundamental disagreement (not because I don't like guns), but because I think there are more important social, legal, and economic issues at hand other than guns and a woman's choice.

I expect them to protect the second. I expect them to be able to read well enough to understand that they, the federal government, have zero authority to legislate anything with regards to abortion policy outside of what is explicitly federal territory.
 

Gruco

Banned
AniHawk said:
I hope this time the Democrats can outnumber the Republicans in states where Democrats outnumber Republicans. Was Democrat turnout lower in 2004 than expected? I thought Republican turnout was higher than expected. I'm worried it'll happen again in every single battleground state.
A main factor for this was Bush repeated dog whistling to evangelicals. McCain is trying, but doesn't have remotely the same pull. Palin may help, but I really don't think he can turn them out like GW.
Cloudy said:
quote it. I'm too lazy to register
bugmenot.com

Frank Rich is awesome.
AniHawk said:
Yep, *sigh* indeed. I wasn't really that emotionally invested in Kerry's campaign, though I deeply wanted Bush out of there. This time I need to see Obama win. I'm not sure what I'll do if he doesn't.
This is another big difference between 04. It's not just a matter of the lesser of "two evils"; people genuinely want Obama to win. Last time I remember only like a dozen people being genuinely supportive of Kerry in and of himself.
StoOgE said:
I first got involved by walking into an Obama field office and asking what can I do.. they have something called camp Obama where they train people stuck in red states and then send them to swing states as field directors. I was going to do that, but they wanted a 6 week commitment on the ground which I couldnt do. So Im just staying with a friend in Boulder and showing up to the local office and asking 'what can I co?'
Very seriously considering it. I'm at a point where I need to not be doing my regular job anyway, and I live a top tier state. If Obama loses and I just sat on my ass the whole time I'm gonna haven to throw myself off a bridge or something. Not that I think he'll lose. But still.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
The Supremacy Clause means that no lesser government can defy us.
This was kinda necessary to make states stop enslaving people, by means of the 14th Amendment.

That said, I do find it funny a libertarian is getting so upset over declaring that people have "extraneous" rights over gross expansion of executive power.
 

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
I seen 4 McCain ads (which are all "He'll raise your taxes, No drilling = high gas prices, lost jobs") within the past hour in Ohio. *sigh*
 

JayDubya

Banned
Hitokage said:
This was kinda necessary to make states stop enslaving people, by means of the 14th Amendment.

The 14th Amendment was ratified, the Supremacy Clause was already present, so that has nothing to do with the 9th.

The only possible relevance of your example to what I was talking about was to provide a reference point, since now, a moral evil equivalent to that one is protected by abusing the 9th and the Supremacy Clause while wholly ignoring the 10th.
 

AniHawk

Member
alr1ghtstart said:
I seen 4 McCain ads (which are all "He'll raise your taxes, No drilling = high gas prices, lost jobs") within the past hour in Ohio. *sigh*

Does Obama have any commercials? He never released fundraising numbers for August.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
JayDubya said:
The 14th Amendment was ratified, the Supremacy Clause was already present, that has nothing to do with the 9th.

The only possible relevance of your example to what I was talking about was to reference that now, a moral evil equivalent to that one is protected by abusing the 9th and the Supremacy Clause while wholly ignoring the 10th.
14th Amendment is what enforces the bill of rights onto lower levels of government, expanding the "prohibited" part of the 10th amendment.
 

Tamanon

Banned
alr1ghtstart said:
I seen 4 McCain ads (which are all "He'll raise your taxes, No drilling = high gas prices, lost jobs") within the past hour in Ohio. *sigh*

I'm sure somehow they don't count against the McCain spending cap.
 

Tamanon

Banned
BTW, in the modern era, apparently the record for longest time from announcement of VP to them having a press conference is 10 days, that would be Eagleton, too. Palin is on her 9th day and probably won't have one for another couple weeks. Day One!
 
Commerce Clause: GONZALES. The use of medicinal marijuana that you grow yourself violates interstate commerce. Give me a fucking break. Stevens, Ginsberg, Souter, Breyer. Scalia, too, because he's an authoritarian bastard.

I don't disagree here either. But you really think that a right leaning justice appointed by a right leaning Republican president would be better for this issue of medical marijuana? I think you might be smoking something ;) I generally think that because of the societal acceptance of marijuana (just look at mass media like the movies and TV shows), in the next 10-20 years, we're going to see a shift in how this issue is treated. But to imagine that a right leaning SCOTUS would actually help the cause? I don't know; it seems entirely counter intuitive to me.

5th: KELO. The use of eminent domain to take from one person to give to another for economic development? Great. Need I go on with more, or is listing something recent and wholly repugnant enough?

Well, eminent domain has served a great need in the past to create the necessary infrastructure. In this day and age, I don't disagree with you that it's an outdated idea and needs to be reformed. But if you think that a Republican president appointing a more right leaning justice would make this better, I'd have to disagree with you on that; if anything, on the surface of it, it would seem that they would be even more pro-business and pro-development.

8th: Minor point, but your team thinks cruel and unusual means whatever they think is cuel and unusual.

I mean, it's impossible to argue this because it's really a matter of opinion (as you've so stated by your point). Some people suspend themselves from hooks for pleasure while others would see that as cruel and unusual punishment. So which is it? It's a matter of opinion and every person will have different tolerances to what he or she considers cruel and unusual. It's also a function of societal views towards violence in general. You're right to precede that with "minor".

9th: This is where the worst abuses happen. The people have whatever rights we say they do. The Constitution says whatever we say it does. The Supremacy Clause means that no lesser government can defy us.

Can you expand on your beef here? I'm trying to understand your position here.

10th: Doesn't exist. The States exist to serve their master, the Federal Government, which has whatever power it says it does.

And you think a McCain/Palin presidency would be better for this how? In general, I'd like to hear any specific beefs you have with regards to the 10th. What keeps JayDubs up at night tossing and turning with respect to the 10th?

In summary...

I really don't get the idea that a Republican administration with a right leaning Judicial would be better for your Libertarian ideals of individual freedoms and rights. It's like you've had 8 years with a Republican president and 6 years with a Republican Congress. In that time, you think you've gained more rights and more freedoms?
 
alr1ghtstart said:
I seen 4 McCain ads (which are all "He'll raise your taxes, No drilling = high gas prices, lost jobs") within the past hour in Ohio. *sigh*

I wish Obama would counteract this argument aggressively. The only way McCain has any way to make inroads on the economy front is through providing misleading information or straight up lying. Obama should hammer home his tax cuts in Ads and be very specific from now until the election to take that issue off the table. It's too bad that they haven't been aggressive enough on this front because it's a big winner for the Obama camp.

It was interesting to watch Juan Williams go after Kristol and Brit "Droopy Dog" Hume on this issue, while Brit just uttered McCain camp talking points on the issue.
 

SCReuter

Member
Tamanon said:
If that's true, that's completely and totally fucked up. How do you just not carry This Week? Especially for one week and replace it with an infomercial, that's insane.

I live in South Florida and can confirm that This Week did not play this morning.

Ridiculous.
 

Cloudy

Banned
SCReuter said:
I live in South Florida and can confirm that This Week did not play this morning.

Ridiculous.


It was a really good interview too. The fact that the Repubs are worried about Florida encourages me though...
 
If anything, Jay, I'd think you'd be excited by Obama because of the fact that you know, he's actually studied Constitutional law and actually taught it for a time at UC. I mean, he also graduated Harvard law (near the top of his class?)...so I'd think he'd have a far firmer grasp on legal matters and the Constitution than McCain. If anything, I think he'd make a better and more informed decision as to who he'd select to replace the outgoing Justices than McCain would.

If the missteps of the McCain campaign so far should have exposed any critical weaknesses to you, it's that he cannot pick competent people (Walter Reed fiasco? Green Screen Part Deux? A campaign manager who's stuck his foot in his mouth multiple times already?) and he'll make decisions based on partisanship politics (Palin, for example) instead of heading towards the center.

I think you really need to reconsider your view on what effect Obama would have on the SCOTUS. I know you want to lump him in as a leftist, but he's also very well educated in law and I don't think he'd be as radical as you tend to think he will be in selecting Justices.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Nibelung Valesti said:
Oh well, at least there are FEW people controlling media. Not just ONE like in my damn country (Italy) >_<
Sad though... Obama should not rely on media too much. It's crucial that he doesn't loose direct contact with people in those states critical for this elections.
The exposure gained through the media is an order of magnitude or two higher than he could ever reach in person.
 
someone in the Obama camp should start the get-out-the-palin campaign. Pushback against the media and force them to get the McCain to answer again and again why they cannot talk to Palin at all.

McCain wants to get Palin only out until the debates, the Obama camp should force McCain to push out Palin and get the word out that Palin is actually a pick to manipulate the American people to get more interested and vote for McCain and she has no substance. Push back hard the next week .
 

JayDubya

Banned
CharlieDigital said:
I don't disagree here either. But you really think that a right leaning justice appointed by a right leaning Republican president would be better for this issue of medical marijuana? I think you might be smoking something ;) I generally think that because of the societal acceptance of marijuana (just look at mass media like the movies and TV shows), in the next 10-20 years, we're going to see a shift in how this issue is treated. But to imagine that a right leaning SCOTUS would actually help the cause? I don't know; it seems entirely counter intuitive to me.

Why should it seem counter intuitive? Federalist judges like Rehnquist promoted the possibility of individual states to set their own drug policy. Breyers and Souter and Ginsberg bat for the wrong team every single time.

Well, eminent domain has served a great need in the past to create the necessary infrastructure. In this day and age, I don't disagree with you that it's an outdated idea and needs to be reformed. But if you think that a Republican president appointing a more right leaning justice would make this better, I'd have to disagree with you on that; if anything, on the surface of it, it would seem that they would be even more pro-business and pro-development.

Eminent domain is shit and if I had my druthers it would be amended out of the Constitution entirely.

If used at all, it should not be used to take from one private entity to give to another private entity, it should be used in order to build something of emergent neccessity for governmental functions (those governmental functions themselves being neccessary and Constitutional - yeah, right).

Can you expand on your beef here? I'm trying to understand your position here.

The idea of a "living document" is bullshit. The 9th is a simple reminder that people have rights which aren't in the Bill of Rights. Fair enough. And they don't need to even be written down, if the government is explicitly limited to the powers it actually has.

The way it has been abused to promote rights that are not in the Constitution is what I take grave issue with. As is, the Supreme Court can make up any right they want and wholly bypass the democratic process by which amendments are ratified.

And you think a McCain/Palin presidency would be better for this how? In general, I'd like to hear any specific beefs you have with regards to the 10th. What keeps JayDubs up at night tossing and turning with respect to the 10th?

I love the 10th Amendment. It's just that it doesn't exist anymore. Bandits have apparently ripped that part of the document out and absconded with the torn paper.

The 10th Amendment is the strongest limitation on federal power imaginable. Is it any wonder the federal government wants to pretend it does not exist? When was the last time a Supreme Court justice even referenced it while striking down federal authority? And why do I have a feeling that, without looking, the maligned Rehnquist was the one doing it?

CharlieDigital said:
If anything, Jay, I'd think you'd be excited by Obama because of the fact that you know, he's actually studied Constitutional law and actually taught it for a time at UC. I mean, he also graduated Harvard law (near the top of his class?)...so I'd think he'd have a far firmer grasp on legal matters and the Constitution than McCain.

:lol Surely you must be joking.
 

Cheebs

Member
JayDubya said:
The idea of a "living document" is bullshit.
If it is bullshit why did one of our most important founding fathers, George Washington, hold this loose constructionist view on the constitution. Was Washington a idiot?
 

EMBee99

all that he wants is another baby
Is there usually a "debate bounce" in polling as well? It's one thing when one candidate dominates the airwaves and pulls in a bump from the oversaturation of image, but when actual issues are discussed, does it benefit?

I know, common sense says it should, but I just saw a week of nothing but hate and it tied up this race.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Blame the expansion of trade, both nationalization and internationalization of companies, for the expansion of the interstate commerce clause's purview. If you wanted to correct this expansion you'd need a "living" document. ;)

And again...

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
This part got expanded on thanks to slavery and the black codes. State's Rights had its chance, and they blew it miserably.
 

Tamanon

Banned
EMBee99 said:
Is there usually a "debate bounce" in polling as well? It's one thing when one candidate dominates the airwaves and pulls in a bump from the oversaturation of image, but when actual issues are discussed, does it benefit?

I know, common sense says it should, but I just saw a week of nothing but hate and it tied up this race.

Depends on the debate and the result. Then it also depends on the spin on the debate.
 

AniHawk

Member
EMBee99 said:
Is there usually a "debate bounce" in polling as well? It's one thing when one candidate dominates the airwaves and pulls in a bump from the oversaturation of image, but when actual issues are discussed, does it benefit?

I know, common sense says it should, but I just saw a week of nothing but hate and it tied up this race.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/13651/Debates-Affect-Presidential-Contests.aspx
In 1984, Reagan led Mondale by 17 points just prior to the first debate, and continued to lead by 17 points one month later, after the second and final debate. In 1988, Bush led Dukakis by eight points just before their debate, and by nine points following that debate. In 1992, Clinton led Bush by 18 points before the first debate, and by 9 points following the second (with most of the decline in support for Clinton going to third-party challenger Perot). In 1996, Clinton led Dole by 18 points going into the first debate, and by 23 points after the final debate.

As noted, the pattern in 2000 was different. Gore and Bush were essentially tied just prior to the first debate, with Gore at 46% and Bush at 44%. However, immediately following the third and final debate, Bush led Gore by 11 points, 51% to 40%. That lead proved to be temporary, however, as within two days the race was back to single digits, with Bush leading by only two to seven points throughout late October. Still, before the debates, Gore enjoyed a slight lead, while after the debates Bush enjoyed the lead -- which could have kept Bush competitive and helped him win the electoral vote.

Already Gallup has seen substantial movement in the national horse race over the course of the 2004 debates, similar to what was seen in 2000. In a Sept. 24-26 poll, Bush led Kerry by eight points among likely voters, 52% to 44%. Then, after Bush lost the first debate on Sept. 30, an Oct. 1-3 Gallup Poll showed Bush and Kerry tied at 49% in the presidential race. It remained a virtual dead heat -- 49% for Kerry and 48% for Bush -- in an Oct. 9-10 Gallup Poll following the second debate on Oct. 8.

Whether Kerry will now expand that lead after a strong performance in the third debate, and whether he can maintain the edge over Bush for the remaining few weeks before the election are the questions everyone is interested in, and for which the historical trends presented here suggest no clear answer.

Here's the poll after the second debate:

pr041012i.gif


And the final poll:

pr041101i.gif
 

JayDubya

Banned
Cheebs said:
If it is bullshit why did one of our most important founding fathers, George Washington, hold this loose constructionist view on the constitution. Was Washington a idiot?

As the resident Washington fanboy, you don't know what you're talking about.

Also, by arguing in favor of "living document" post-modern interpretation, you inherently abandon any possibility of making appeals to the writings and speeches of people like Washington without looking really stupid.
 
JayDubya said:
How about this, then. I expect them to do their job and protect the law of the land from infringement and shut down programs that violate it. Instead, they make new law that no one can change except for themselves, and even then, they cry "precedent."

Haha. Oh boy. "Do their job and protect the law of the land..."

You ARE aware that the concept of judicial review isn't in the Constitution, right? In fact, the concept arose as a result of the very judicial assertiveness that you seem to despise. Judge Marshall simply gave the Supreme Court the right to judicial review inMarbury v. Madison.

According to the Constitution, it is Congress' and the President's responsibility to obey the Constitution that they swear to uphold. The Supreme Court only has original jurisdiction in cases involving interstate suits and ambassadors, and according to the Constitution everything else they hear is from appellate jurisdiction.

If you're as Constitutionalist as you say you are, you should argue that the Supreme Court should have no say at all in determining whether Bills are Constitutional or not. It's not "their job" according to the Constitution.
 

Slurpy

*drowns in jizz*
You notice when an Obama supporter is asked a question about Obama, he actually tries to address it- when a McCain supporter is asked something about his candidate, there isn't even a fucking attempt to address the question, and instead turn the tables and start to froth and bash Obama on stuff that has nothing to do with the question. 90% of the time the questioner listens to the bullshit and accepts the response. Just fucking pitiful.
 
StoOgE said:
Biden just tore Brokaw/the surge a new asshole.

I saw it. Biden's knowledge of Iraq always impresses me, especially the real implications of the surge and its aftermath which are deepling troubling (Shia-led government sympathetic to Iran, provinces exclusively controlled by Shia or Sunni, and no government control of the north, etc.).

Trouble is, whatever Biden's mastery of the true issues that now face Iraq, most Americans will simply believe that the surge worked, victory has been achieved, and real democracy will take over. In reality, none of these things are true but it is the perception or illusion of victory that always wins in the end.
 

RubxQub

φίλω ἐξεχέγλουτον καί ψευδολόγον οὖκ εἰπόν
My prediction is that the VP debate will spike McCain, regardless of performance.

They will spin the results, and Americans will eat it up.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
JayDubya said:
As the resident Washington fanboy, you don't know what you're talking about.

Also, by arguing in favor of "living document" post-modern interpretation, you inherently abandon any possibility of making appeals to the writings and speeches of people like Washington without looking really stupid.
Only when you cherry pick. Those guys hardly agreed on everything.
 

JayDubya

Banned
Frank the Great said:
You ARE aware that the concept of judicial review isn't in the Constitution, right?

No, I'd never heard of Marbury v. Madison before, and I've never had that conversation before on GAF. Please go on.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Frank the Great said:
Haha. Oh boy. "Do their job and protect the law of the land..."

You ARE aware that the concept of judicial review isn't in the Constitution, right? In fact, the concept arose as a result of the very judicial assertiveness that you seem to despise. Judge Marshall simply gave the Supreme Court the right to judicial review inMarbury v. Madison.

According to the Constitution, it is Congress' and the President's responsibility to obey the Constitution that they swear to uphold. The Supreme Court only has original jurisdiction in cases involving interstate suits and ambassadors, and according to the Constitution everything else they hear is from appellate jurisdiction.

If you're as Constitutionalist as you say you are, you should argue that the Supreme Court should have no say at all in determining whether Bills are Constitutional or not. It's not "their job" according to the Constitution.
This argument is a nonstarter. Judicial Review is a basic logical conclusion of the Supremacy Clause when two laws contradict. All Marbury did was give it a name.
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
JayDubya said:
As the resident Washington fanboy, you don't know what you're talking about.

Also, by arguing in favor of "living document" post-modern interpretation, you inherently abandon any possibility of making appeals to the writings and speeches of people like Washington without looking really stupid.

Being a dogmatic originalist carries the underlying assumption that we can actually figure out what the founding fathers intended on every single issue and dispute. There are some cases where it's clear and some where it's not (including some cases where the founders themselves loudly disagreed).

Remember how you thought nobody was ever intended to live in Washington DC and it was meant to be a ghost town at night after everyone commuted back to MD or VA?

That is so wildly off the mark that I figure you'd take a moment and say "Gee, I had no goddam clue what the founders intended in this case. Maybe I shouldn't presume that knowledge so quickly in the future."



edit: Hito - It's a basic logical conclusion but it's one that would be stymied by JD's strict interpretation of the text. I think that's Frank's point.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Hito - This Tuesday for real this time!
Ok, right, sure.... ;)


edit: Hito - It's a basic logical conclusion but it's one that would be stymied by JD's strict interpretation of the text. I think that's Frank's point.
Or in other words, a position that prevents any application of the document. I guess when he disparages a "living" document, he prefers a "dead" one. I wonder how JayDubya feels about the cabinet, since according to the constitution nobody is supposed to be in it.
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
Hitokage said:
Ok, right, sure.... ;)


Or in other words, a position that prevents any application of the document. I guess when he disparages a "living" document, he prefers a "dead" one. I wonder how JayDubya feels about the cabinet, since according to the constitution nobody is supposed to be in it.

If not a living document, then a dead letter!

You like that? I just totally came up with it now.
 

thefit

Member
Slurpy said:
You notice when an Obama supporter is asked a question about Obama, he actually tries to address it- when a McCain supporter is asked something about his candidate, there isn't even a fucking attempt to address the question, and instead turn the tables and start to froth and bash Obama on stuff that has nothing to do with the question. 90% of the time the questioner listens to the bullshit and accepts the response. Just fucking pitiful.

That's cuz 90% of those asking the questions don't know themselves wtf they are talking about. You see it everyday on network news, these celebrity "newscasters" repeating whatever BS got uploaded on the teleprompter for the day. They don't even flinch at the sight of any questionable story, hell I don't think they even hear themselves as they repeat the talking points of the day.
 
Hitokage said:
This argument is a nonstarter. Judicial Review is a basic logical conclusion of the Supremacy Clause when two laws contradict. All Marbury did was give it a name.

Of course the Court gets to rule on when two laws conflict. The right for the Court to declare laws unconstitutional was created in Marbury v. Madison though.

I mean, I just took a class on this and this is what we were taught. I trust my prof over nerds on the interweb.
 

JayDubya

Banned
Mandark said:
Being a dogmatic originalist carries the underlying assumption that we can actually figure out what the founding fathers intended on every single issue and dispute. There are some cases where it's clear and some where it's not (including some cases where the founders themselves loudly disagreed).

Totally aware of this. Not sure why you feel the need to point this out. Not a big fan of folks like Hamilton or Adams, by the way. I'm sure you find this shocking.

Remember how you thought nobody was ever intended to live in Washington DC and it was meant to be a ghost town at night after everyone commuted back to MD or VA?

This is no doubt regarding the "representation" and your support for giving a single city two senators. It was a mistake to let it become so populous in the first place, and its citizens should be regarded as members of another state.

As for your next statement, I'm talking specifics. About one guy.
 
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