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PoliGAF Interim Thread of cunning stunts and desperate punts

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aceface

Member
MassiveAttack said:
Biden talking about Iraq on Meet the Press this morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDanBpj298s

The less Biden and Obama talk about Iraq in this election the better. People want to believe that the surge worked, our troops kicked ass and everything is fixed over there. They don't want to hear about how complicated the situation still is. And when they talk about it, it's going to sound like sour grapes because they claimed the surge wouldn't work.
 

NetMapel

Guilty White Male Mods Gave Me This Tag
From Canada's CTV news network:

Convention speeches help professor detect deception

Updated Sun. Sep. 7 2008 11:58 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

A Queen's University computer science professor claims he has studied the Democratic and GOP convention speeches, crunched the numbers, run them through his computer and found that Republican John McCain really may be a straight talker.

David Skillicorn analyzed the speeches of major speakers at the Republican and Democratic conventions, counted some key words that indicate if someone is trying to be deceptive, put them through a software program, and came up with results that may surprise some people.

McCain, the Republican presidential nominee, appears to have delivered a speech with the least amount of deception or "spin" of all the major politicians to speak over the past two weeks, according to Skillicorn's analysis.

His Democratic rival, Illinois Sen. Barack Obama, didn't fare much better than U.S. President George Bush in the study. Obama placed in the middle when it came to the amount of spin in his speech. The candidate with the most deceptive speech was former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney, according to Skillicorn.


How did Skillicorn determine which candidate used more or less spin? He based his study on research conducted by prominent University of Texas psychologist James Pennebaker. The former FBI polygraph unit instructor and a colleague discovered that a person's choice of words could indicate when he or she was lying.

Pennebaker claimed that liars generally used fewer first person pronouns (like "I" or "my") than more honest people.

"When someone is being deceptive the rate of those words goes down. So, people disassociate themselves from what they are saying. They step back from it," Skillicorn told CTV News from Kingston, Ont.

Conversely, Skillicorn says the use of negative association words (for example, words such as hate, anger, boring, dumb, disappointing, and weak) increases when someone is being deceptive.

Once the major speeches were run through a text analysis program, he says McCain clearly came out as the "low spin" winner.

Here is Skillicorn's list of candidates in order of least to most deceptive.

* John McCain
* Mike Huckabee
* Joe Biden
* Joe Lieberman
* Sarah Palin
* Michelle Obama
* Barack Obama
* George W. Bush
* Bill Clinton
* Hillary Clinton
* Fred Thompson
* Rudolph Giuliani
* Mitt Romney

"(McCain) tells his own story. So, necessarily he is using lots of "I's"," Skillicorn said.

"But if you look at the way he speaks of policy, it's the same way, which is not the way Obama phrases his policy discussion. The reason may be because (Obama) hasn't done as much. So, he doesn't have the same choices."

Critics may question Skillicorn's methodology. The key words and phrases he uses to determine the veracity of a speech were based on Pennebaker's studies where participants actually wrote out their own answers to questions they were asked.

Few, if any, political candidates for major office in the U.S. write their own speeches. Instead, all of the candidates Skillicorn reviewed likely had their speeches written by teams of writers. So, his analysis may not determine whether or not a candidate is trying to manipulate the truth. Instead, it may say more about the speechwriters than the candidate.

Skillicorn says that doesn't matter because speechwriters try to match their words with their subject's speech pattern. Also, he says, the speakers usually finesse the final draft of the speech.

Using text analysis is "a really good window into the soul because (speech is) being driven by the subconscious," he said.

I can imagine Fox new's top story tomorrow is already ! "Even the Canadians don't trust Obama LOL !"
 

RubxQub

φίλω ἐξεχέγλουτον καί ψευδολόγον οὖκ εἰπόν
GhaleonEB said:
election2008_HP_1.gif


Five point swing today, from +2 to -3.
OMG WIPE IT! MCCAIN AGGRO'D THE HEALERS!
 
Tamanon said:
BTW, in the modern era, apparently the record for longest time from announcement of VP to them having a press conference is 10 days, that would be Eagleton, too. Palin is on her 9th day and probably won't have one for another couple weeks. Day One!
Palin's rallying her base way too much to become the next Eagleton. It's at the point where some news could come out about her eating babies and they'd cry SEXISM and rationalize her eating of said babbys.
 

Cloudy

Banned
Just saw the Biden interview with Brokaw. This man knows his shit and countered everything Brokaw threw at him (It was as tough as Brokaw can get these days).

There is no way they let Palin on that show cos she'd be destroyed..
 
Slurpy said:
You notice when an Obama supporter is asked a question about Obama, he actually tries to address it- when a McCain supporter is asked something about his candidate, there isn't even a fucking attempt to address the question, and instead turn the tables and start to froth and bash Obama on stuff that has nothing to do with the question. 90% of the time the questioner listens to the bullshit and accepts the response. Just fucking pitiful.

I had this experience. GAF helped me start off a debate with someone else yesterday, and I continued it on my own.

What happened?

The McCain supporter blocked me from her notes and deleted all my comments.

Frankly, I found it hilarious and sad.
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
JayDubya said:
This is no doubt regarding the "representation" and your support for giving a single city two senators. It was a mistake to let it become so populous in the first place, and its citizens should be regarded as members of another state.

It was *always* planned to be an urban center and you thought it was meant to have a population of zero. That doesn't make you hesitate in your judgments? Not even a teensy bit?

It's also a bit weird that you're sympathetic to secessionists in Alaska but not statehood proponents in DC.
 
Cloudy said:
Just saw the Biden interview with Brokaw. This man knows his shit and countered everything Brokaw threw at him (It was as tough as Brokaw can get these days).

There is no way they let Palin on that show cos she'd be destroyed..

Biden really needs to learn how to be concise though. What he said made a lot of sense to me and you, but to the average American they would just get confused. When Palin follows up with "We need to have VICTORY and come home with HONOR" that is what will resonate with them.
 

Soybean

Member
Frank the Great said:
Biden really needs to learn how to be concise though. What he said made a lot of sense to me and you, but to the average American they would just get confused. When Palin follows up with "We need to have VICTORY and come home with HONOR" that is what will resonate with them.
I agree completely. He gave a great response, but it needs to be summed up in far fewer words. It's a tough thing to do, and I sure as hell am not great at it.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Mandark said:
It was *always* planned to be an urban center and you thought it was meant to have a population of zero. That doesn't make you hesitate in your judgments? Not even a teensy bit?

It's also a bit weird that you're sympathetic to secessionists in Alaska but not statehood proponents in DC.


Weird, yes. Unexpected, no. Libertarian or not, JayDubya is the Republicans' most successful advocate on gaf. Almost unflinching in his support of the right. Occasionally rails at the Bigness of the this administration, but otherwise takes the republican part in every argument.

Also, Jay's view of the constitution is frequently emotional, rather than logical, as he's demonstrated time and time again. I stopped taking anything he said about it seriously when he used a grammarian to demonstrate that there's nothing in the Second about a well organized militia.
 

RubxQub

φίλω ἐξεχέγλουτον καί ψευδολόγον οὖκ εἰπόν
capslock said:
Brokaw just got bit**slapped, the debate will be painful to watch.
Damn...this will be my halftime viewing for sure it sounds.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Frank the Great said:
Of course the Court gets to rule on when two laws conflict. The right for the Court to declare laws unconstitutional was created in Marbury v. Madison though.

I mean, I just took a class on this and this is what we were taught. I trust my prof over nerds on the interweb.
Yeah, but unconstitutional is basically saying "this law is trumped by the constitution in this ruling, and it'll be the same in the next ruling, so don't bother using it again because we'll just do the same damn thing." I'm not arguing what you're saying there, just thinking it's the natural result of actually having the US Constitution and a supreme court in the first place.
 

JayDubya

Banned
OuterWorldVoice said:
Also, Jay's view of the constitution is frequently emotional, rather than logical, as he's demonstrated time and time again. I stopped taking anything he said about it seriously when he used a grammarian to demonstrate that there's nothing in the Second about a well organized militia.

Yup. I use sentence structure to break down a sentence in order to point out that "A well organized militia, being neccessary..." has absolutely no modifier. Yeah, that's totally pathos, and not at all rooted in logos.

Sick burn, Muad'Dib, you totally got me.

Also, does anyone have any criticism of Rehnquist to offer, or are we just going to wheel out more attacks on previous posts that I've made?
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
To be fair, JD, you've basically come out and said that you don't even want to hear about scholarship that might contradict your opinions (Keynes and I suspect global warming).
 
Hitokage said:
Yeah, but unconstitutional is basically saying "this law is trumped by the constitution in this ruling, and it'll be the same in the next ruling, so don't bother using it again because we'll just do the same damn thing." I'm not arguing what you're saying there, just thinking it's the natural result of actually having the US Constitution and a supreme court in the first place.

I agree completely, but that misses the point I was making. In fact, I do think judicial review is a GOOD thing.

My main point was just that it's pretty ironic that Jaydub thinks the Supreme Court should use judicial review to make sure every law passed by Congress adheres strictly to the Constitution when the concept of judicial review itself isn't strictly in the Constitution.
 

AniHawk

Member
so_awes said:
it's over :[

Yesterday's numbers:

Wednesday: Obama +7.8
Thursday: Obama +2.4
Friday: McCain +4.2
Average: Obama + 2

Today's numbers:
Thursday: Obama + 2.4
Friday: McCain + 4.2
Saturday: McCain + 7.2
Average: McCain + 3

His numbers will go up again tomorrow as Obama's Thursday numbers are factored out, but they should start going down throughout the week, especially once yesterday's numbers are factored out.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Frank the Great said:
My main point was just that it's pretty ironic that Jaydub thinks the Supreme Court should use judicial review to make sure every law passed by Congress adheres strictly to the Constitution when the concept of judicial review itself isn't strictly in the Constitution.
Oh, hahah, right.
 
Agent Icebeezy said:
We have a while to go and a bump was expected.
It's definitely a much larger bump than expected though. Eleven points and we don't even have the full effect of the post convention yet, it's absolutely insane how successful the Republican convention was. Better ratings, better reviews, better results in polling. Who the fuck would've predicted this two weeks ago?

I'm not saying we've seen a game changer but Obama's definitely not in a good place right now. The conservative base is superenergized and the independents are starting to split against him.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
JayDubya said:
Yup. I use sentence structure to break down a sentence in order to point out that "A well organized militia, being neccessary..." has absolutely no modifier. Yeah, that's totally pathos, and not at all rooted in logos.

Sick burn, Muad'Dib, you totally got me.

Also, does anyone have any criticism of Rehnquist to offer, or are we just going to wheel out more attacks on previous posts that I've made?


Sorry Jay, I agree with you on more than you know and respect most of your argument and rhetoric, even when I disagree with you, but on guns and abortions, you tend to lose the plot, in my opinion. That grammar theory is every bit as ridiculous when you repeat it too.
 

JayDubya

Banned
OuterWorldVoice said:
Sorry Jay, I agree with you on more than you know and respect most of your argument and rhetoric, even when I disagree with you, but on guns and abortions, you tend to lose the plot, in my opinion. That grammar theory is every bit as ridiculous when you repeat it too.

I don't even understand how you find it absurd. I don't understand the disconnect. It's plain as day, and again - strict logos.

How better to understand what a sentence means than to analyze the sentence? Well, certainly, you could consult the author, or if dead, consult their writings, and I'm a big fan of that methodology, but...
 

AniHawk

Member
typhonsentra said:
It's definitely a much larger bump than expected though. Eleven points and we don't even have the full effect of the post convention yet, it's absolutely insane how successful the Republican convention was. Better ratings, better reviews, better results in polling. Who the fuck would've predicted this two weeks ago?

I'm not saying we've seen a game changer but Obama's definitely not in a good place right now. The conservative base is superenergized and the independents are starting to split against him.

Obama's 8 point lead was the peak of his bump, and that had factored in the Palin pick too. Don't be surprised at a 5-6 point lead in McCain's favor tomorrow.
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
I think that JD's abortion stance is basically the only valid anti-choice stance that's possible and is pretty consistent with his view of the world, even though I think it's ultimately crazy and wrong.

When people want to make exceptions for rape and incest they're basically admitting that embryos aren't morally equivalent to people and undermine their entire argument for having the government interfere women's decisions.

Abortion is one area where the middle ground is untenable.
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
I stopped taking anything he said about it seriously when he used a grammarian to demonstrate that there's nothing in the Second about a well organized militia.
Damnit, now he's going to post that stupid thing again.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
JayDubya said:
I don't even understand how you find it absurd. I don't understand the disconnect. It's plain as day, and again - strict logos.

How better to understand what a sentence means than to analyze the sentence? Well, certainly, you could consult the author, or if dead, consult their writings, and I'm a big fan of that methodology, but...
Why just the final version?
Myself in that teachers carrying guns thread said:
As with the first amendment, it's interesting to go back and see how it was originally proposed before Congress.
James Madison said:
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, a well-armed and well-regulated militia being the best security of a free country, but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.
The context is clearly different in the original version, but since it doesn't agree with you I guess it doesn't count. ;)
 

GhaleonEB

Member
AniHawk said:
Obama's 8 point lead was the peak of his bump, and that had factored in the Palin pick too. Don't be surprised at a 5-6 point lead in McCain's favor tomorrow.
And as you said, his +7 day will fade out Wednesday. I'm guessing we'll be all tied up again by next weekend. In this poll, anyways.
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
AniHawk said:
Yesterday's numbers:

Wednesday: Obama +7.8
Thursday: Obama +2.4
Friday: McCain +4.2
Average: Obama + 2

Today's numbers:
Thursday: Obama + 2.4
Friday: McCain + 4.2
Saturday: McCain + 7.2
Average: McCain + 3

His numbers will go up again tomorrow as Obama's Thursday numbers are factored out, but they should start going down throughout the week, especially once yesterday's numbers are factored out.

there are 3 big factors in this

1)Obama in general polls 2-3 points better mid week vs the weekend in the daily tracking.

2) McCain is experiencing overinflated numbers due to convention bounce.

3) b/c the dems convention *just* ended, you have the added effect of Obamas overinflated post convention bump poll numbers coming back down to Earth.

give till late next week before freaking out. my guess is Obama + 3-4

its still a shit poll.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
JayDubya said:
I don't even understand how you find it absurd. I don't understand the disconnect. It's plain as day, and again - strict logos.

How better to understand what a sentence means than to analyze the sentence? Well, certainly, you could consult the author, or if dead, consult their writings, and I'm a big fan of that methodology, but...


Even if I agreed with your analysis of the meaning, I would have to infer that the Constitution, like the Koran*, was a "perfect" document containing no human error, omission or problem to even begin to consider that theory. Which I think is cockamamie at best to begin with.

In fact, your best defense here is the lack of access to the original writer.

* Relevant note, scholars have found thousands of errors and grammatical problems in a "perfect" document essentially penned by "god."

Hitokage said:
Why just the final version?The context is clearly different in the original version, but since it doesn't agree with you I guess it doesn't count. ;)

Thank you.
 

Slurpy

*drowns in jizz*
Frank the Great said:
Biden really needs to learn how to be concise though. What he said made a lot of sense to me and you, but to the average American they would just get confused. When Palin follows up with "We need to have VICTORY and come home with HONOR" that is what will resonate with them.

The fact that this is the political landscape is sad, on so many levels. That knowing less, being more ignorant, and presenting a dumbed down and probably dishonest message is actually an advantage.
 

ShOcKwAvE

Member
WTF does this administration have to do to ruin their party? Kill kittens on live tv?

After eight years of disastrous rule, this country is apparently willing to tolerate four more years of GOP control. I can't even describe how angry I am right now.
 
Slurpy said:
The fact that this is the political landscape is sad, on so many levels. That knowing less, being more ignorant, and presenting a dumbed down and probably dishonest message is actually an advantage.
What is sad does not reverse the outcome of elections. What is real does. I have to agree with his point, although Biden clearly knows more about what is going on. I just hope that its not a big enough issue to throw the election.
 

JayDubya

Banned
Mandark said:
I think that JD's abortion stance is basically the only valid anti-choice stance that's possible and is pretty consistent with his view of the world, even though I think it's ultimately crazy and wrong.

I'm sure plenty of abolitionists of slavery got called crazy and wrong, so I'll take those as complements.

Abortion is one area where the middle ground is untenable.

Tell that to Obama. Honestly, the middle ground is rarely tenable. Attacks on partisanship are generally just backhanded ways of saying "shut up already and agree with me."
 
JayDubya said:
I don't even understand how you find it absurd. I don't understand the disconnect. It's plain as day, and again - strict logos.

How better to understand what a sentence means than to analyze the sentence? Well, certainly, you could consult the author, or if dead, consult their writings, and I'm a big fan of that methodology, but...

I think the point which is flying over your head is that it's pretty ridiculous to analyze the sentence structure of a 330 year old document while ignoring EVERYTHING else that has happened between then and now regarding guns, including changes in gun law and experiences of people with guns.

We know a lot more now than people did then. It's kind of silly to hold their word as sacred while ignoring the real world and the effects of said sacred word.

There's a reason they say libertarians live in fantasy land. It's as if their whole outlook on life is framed with ideology and theory, with no basis in reality, past or present.
 

TDG

Banned
ShOcKwAvE said:
WTF does this administration have to do to ruin their party? Kill kittens on live tv?

After eight years of disastrous rule, this country is apparently willing to tolerate four more years of GOP control. I can't even describe how angry I am right now.
*SIGH*

The Bush Administration is not running, McCain and Palin are, under the banner of "Maverick." Plus, these polls don't indicate that the country is willing to tolerate four more years of the GOP, the election will. This is what's known as a convention bump. It happens to everyone.

You can tell from reading this thread that this is the first election a lot of people have followed.
 
By the way, using a grammarian to interpret a sentence in the Constitution only works if one assumes that the grammar in 1780 had the same interpretation as that of today, and if one assumes that the founders used 100% correct grammar which made clear their intent.

If you don't assume these things, then you are no longer arguing for the intent of the founders, you are arguing for the sacredness of the text itself.

JayDubya said:
I'm sure plenty of abolitionists of slavery got called crazy and wrong, so I'll take those as complements.

Jesus was called a freak. So I personally take "freak" as the ultimate compliment.
 

Fatalah

Member
TDG said:
*SIGH*

The Bush Administration is not running, McCain and Palin are, under the banner of "Maverick." Plus, these polls don't indicate that the country is willing to tolerate four more years of the GOP, the election will. This is what's known as a convention bump. It happens to everyone.

You can tell from reading this thread that this is the first election a lot of people have followed.


So what's the real pulse of America right now?
 

JayDubya

Banned
Hitokage said:
Why just the final version?The context is clearly different in the original version, but since it doesn't agree with you I guess it doesn't count. ;)

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, a well-armed and well-regulated militia being the best security of a free country, but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."

Yes, I'm aware that there used to be a "conscientious objector" clause in previous drafts. Not sure how you think that changes anything.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
JayDubya said:
Yes, I'm aware that there used to be a "conscientious objector" clause in previous drafts. Not sure how you think that changes anything.
I actually slapped my forehead just now. I hope you're happy.
 
Deku said:
who got the biggest overall boost from their convensions? Obama/Biden or McCain/Palin?

It looks like they will be about the same. They both got about a 7 points change.

Oh jeez. I turned on my TV to FOX News knowing that they would be talking about the Gallup, and what do I see? Two boxes on the screen, one with Obama and 45%, one with McCain at 48%, and the anchor listing other polls which have McCain in the lead, and saying that McCain's lead will grow in the next few days.

They're probably gonna be talking about this all day. I hate America.
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
Eh, I've read stuff about comma placement in the Second Amendment by Latin experts that suggests the militia clause shouldn't be read out entirely. I've got no reason to think JD has any similar expertise.

Maybe JD could find another grammarian who disagrees but that would just prove my point that dogmatic originalism is a boondoggle.
 
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