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[Zaptruder]

ABSOLUTELY. and I think that the burden of proof, especially in today's world, with today's level of technology should be extreeeeeeeemely high. DNA, witnesses, a little bit of EVERYTHING to get a conviction for death and a lot of room to appeal it and make sure you get it right. At least 2 DNA labs independently verifying the results (one chosen by the prosecution, one chosen by the defense but paid for by prosecutors), etc.

Would simply be cheaper to just have a life sentence.

 

[Gaborn]

Would simply be cheaper to just have a life sentence.

Only because the drugs they administer in executions are so expensive and uncommon (precisely because of their rarity and use). I'd have no problem with less gentle methods of execution (firing squad being used outside of Utah for example, hanging, etc) for people determined to be guilty under that tougher to get a conviction system.

 

[The Librarian]

So...if some dude brutally rapes, tortures, and kills everyone in your family including your dog, you want what to happen to him?

Even if it were Hitler himself, I would still not wish death upon him. Have him rot in prison for the rest of his natural life.

 

[WickedAngel]

Even if it were Hitler himself, I would still not wish death upon him. Have him rot in prison for the rest of his natural life.

If there were no entertainment for these types of prisoners, I would agree.

No books, no television, no outside activities, no drawings, extremely limited access to incoming/outgoing letters, bare essentials of nutrition...

Of course, that would be "cruel and unusual".

 

[Gaborn]

Even if it were Hitler himself, I would still not wish death upon him. Have him rot in prison for the rest of his natural life.

You support giving prisoners leprosy? Dude...

 

[Cyan]

So...if some dude brutally rapes, tortures, and kills everyone in your family including your dog, you want what to happen to him?

It doesn't matter what you want. There's a reason the victim's family and friends don't determine the perp's sentence.

 

[Hootie]

If someone could gif John McCain voguing, they would be the bestest person ever.

Here's the Youtube of it :lol
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8G9jA-FGGd8

Now we just need a GAFer who can make good .gifs.

 

[Zaptruder]

Only because the drugs they administer in executions are so expensive and uncommon (precisely because of their rarity and use). I'd have no problem with less gentle methods of execution (firing squad being used outside of Utah for example, hanging, etc) for people determined to be guilty under that tougher to get a conviction system.

No. The court process would make it more expensive.

 

[Gaborn]

No. The court process would make it more expensive.

There's no appeals for life in prison? Come on now.

 

[maximum360]

Do you think Obama shifting positions (FLIP FLOPPER OMG) on public financing is really a game changer as Lindsey Graham said? I can understand why this is upsetting, but I really don't think this is a game changer. Most of us are pretty informed when it comes to this kind of stuff, but the general public, that is, people who aren't heavily interested in the wonderful (lol) game of politics, are not going to care a whole lot. Obama disagreeing with the Supreme Court and saying those who rape children should get the death penalty, on the other hand, is likely a bigger deal to those people.

It was just funny to hear Lindsey's tone of voice, talking about how important it supposedly is. They're going to need a LOT more than Obama turning his back on public financing if they want to try and bury his chances of winning.

I watched Gloria and Tubin make a big stink about it on CNN today. Jack Cafferty said it wasn't really important to most Americans. If they want to make a big deal about it, fine. If the same level of criticism is leveled at each candidate I have no problem with that. Despite McCain's many flip-flops and even this one concerning campaign financing they almost seem afraid of being critical of McCain. Even when Obama brings up the same point in his press conference today, they completely ignore it.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Here's the Youtube of it :lol
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8G9jA-FGGd8

Now we just need a GAFer who can make good .gifs.

Holy shit, this is amazing.

 

[Zaptruder]

There's no appeals for life in prison? Come on now.

I don't know. You tell me. Why would multiple studies into the cost of life imprisonment vs death sentence show death sentence having higher costs?

A few chemicals here and there isn't going to amount to much, when you're talking about overall costs for both in the millions.

 

[WickedAngel]

I don't know. You tell me. Why would multiple studies into the cost of life imprisonment vs death sentence show death sentence having higher costs?

A few chemicals here and there isn't going to amount to much, when you're talking about overall costs for both in the millions.

We still allow appeals for people who were convicted by an overwhelming amount of evidence, unfortunately.

 

[Ventrue]

We still allow appeals for people who were convicted by an overwhelming amount of evidence, unfortunately.

Who decides what constitutes an overwhelming amount of evidence? You?

 

[NewLib]

We still allow appeals for people who were convicted by an overwhelming amount of evidence, unfortunately.

The amount of evidence has absolutely nothing to do with the appeal process. Actually if the defendant is guilty or not has absolutely nothing to do with the appeal process.

 

[Kitschkraft]

Holy shit, just read that Obama disagrees with the Supreme Court decision on the death penalty for raping a child. This is the second time in a week that I've been disappointed with Obama's position (first was FISA).


He isn't as liberal as I hoped

I was also disappointed to hear this.

But it is what it is I guess, the president doesn't have that much control over that kind of issue....which is clear, considering that the Supreme Court just made a ruling that went against both candidates feelings, as well as George Bush (Who from what I have heard, used to execute prisoners like it was nothing when he was governor of Texas).

I want to move away from the DP for many reasons.

One thing I HATE, absolutely LOATHE hearing is the "Rape is worst then murder because the victim is still alive" crap.....I feel that this is something that mostly comes from men, who, with little risk of being raped, are taking somewhat of a "papa-bear" stance on the issue. Rape is obviously a terrible crime, but if it happens to someone, their life is not over, and while we should sympathize with them to the fullest, I don't think we need to suggest that they would be better off dead.

 

[OgnodoD]

Obama's support of the constitutional idea that states should have the power to have the death penalty for child rape is very good to hear. I still won't vote for him, but at least he's not as radical as I had feared.

 

[Gig]

Only because the drugs they administer in executions are so expensive and uncommon (precisely because of their rarity and use). I'd have no problem with less gentle methods of execution (firing squad being used outside of Utah for example, hanging, etc) for people determined to be guilty under that tougher to get a conviction system.

What kind of hanging?

 

[Gaborn]

What kind of hanging?

Not public, private with the witnesses as is done now for executions. If you're asking what kind of hanging as in literally what kind... then I don't know how to answer you, noose, neck, trap door.

 

[Gig]

Not public, private with the witnesses as is done now for executions. If you're asking what kind of hanging as in literally what kind... then I don't know how to answer you, noose, neck, trap door.

What I mean is, the one where you die of strangulation, the one where the rope breaks your neck, or the one where your head is ripped off.

 

[Kitschkraft]

Im sorry Star but that's what pisses me off about this whole Obamaand acting white crap. Think about for a second. If Obama did just the same for blacks that Bill Clinton did we all know black people would be happy.

Like I asked earlier : Can Obama make an official apology for slavery without risking being "too black"? Bill Clinton did this, and as a white male, he didn't risk coming off as being biased or anything (Although today, he would probably be hurled insults of "white guilt").

Honestly now, you guys are all acting like he's just in some perfect position, where he can say absolutely anything he wants, because he's Obama, and he was just born with the perfect balance of appeasing to both whites and blacks. You all might think my attitude towards him is negative, but I'm just trying to be real about it, and I think we all should look at this issue more critically in preparation for many of the TOUGH issues that are going to be raised in debates. When Obama is on stage with McCain, and a pundit ask them both what their opinions are on affirmative action and you see the air get sucked out of the room, you best believe that Nader's words will carry some weight.

Seriously on the real, Obama being the president in of itself will probably help blacks a lot. I can only imagine how excited we will be as a race.

And to me it will be no more bullshit talk. Its put up or shut up. No more fathers leaving their baby moms, no more looking up to drug dealers on the block, no more "no snitching" campaigns for regular people in the hood. No more allow our black kids being joked on because they make A's in school.

Its going to be school to be smart, because hell you could be the next president like Obama.

Now of course Obama will help the black community with a lot of the issues that plague us as a race more than the other races. Hell he even said so and talked about it in his Father's day speech. He said that's one of the reasons that he's running for president.

Obama will be good in that he's going to be a brutha living in the whitehouse with a beautiful black family and will be the first non-white leader of a powerful western country. But the miracle worker type stuff isn't going to be easy. Image is a problem in our communities, but this isn't an attitude that got this way just because our children questioned whether one of us could be president. Black Americans hold little wealth, go to the worst schools, are profiled, arrested, and incarcerated of crimes at rates that mimic Soviet Russia under Stalin, are looked down upon by every other race in the country, have problems with keeping any income in our communities (People are quick to talk about bruthas getting laughed at for being smart, yet don't talk about the suspicion that blacks have for our own who are successful for their ability to never look back...ironically, it seems that Michelle's thesis paper was partially on this topic), have less access to health care....just a ton of problems. And I don't believe that all of them can be solved "post-racially".

Maybe you and Liara needs to watch the whole 20 plus minute father's day speech.

I've seen the speech, and even posted an article that represented my feelings on it a bit.

I felt that it was in general a good message to hear, but not something that we all haven't heard before, and lacked any sort of message that certain sections of the population would be turned off by (Even though the truth is that some people would have to, for any speech on the issues he was talking about to be complete).

I may be dragging this on, but I feel that these are issues that go beyond Nader....a matter of fact, FUCK Nader, I don't give a fuck about him. But to just critique his phrasing or him as a person isn't the same as realizing the point he was raising (Whether consciously or not). I don't see how so many people can follow this campaign, continue to hear all this BS surrounding Obama being "post-racial" (While his wife is painted as some crazy militant angry black women....a typical label from whites towards blacks who stand up), have to see Obama answer for Jeremiah Wright (Who I personally didn't have a problem with until AFTER the media caught onto him and he went on a rampage), answer for the NoI (A group he has absolutely nothing to do with, you would never see the media ask McSame to answer for David Duke), watch as he is practically forced to give a fucking manifesto on race (The first candidate to do so in decades), and yet, still be so aloof to how race and this election are intertwined. For as much as I am enthusiastic about the future of race relations because of his campaign, I often also have feelings of hesitance, knowing some of the things that have to be "vetted" just for a brutha to be trustworthy to whites. This is a CONSTANT concern for ANY black person in the US that is "moving on up", this shit isn't new, so why must the situation be any different for Obama? People were talking about "guilt", let me tell you about it...when I have a meeting with my college adviser, and I have to come back from class and change out of a rocawear hoody and put a different one because the roc one is *brace yourselves* too black, that's when I feel guilty.

 

[Hitokage]

My view on capital punishment can be summed up this way: I have absolutely no problem with executing murderers and rapists, but I do have a serious problem with the idea that we always have the right person.

 

[Kitschkraft]

I watched Gloria and Tubin make a big stink about it on CNN today. Jack Cafferty said it wasn't really important to most Americans. If they want to make a big deal about it, fine. If the same level of criticism is leveled at each candidate I have no problem with that. Despite McCain's many flip-flops and even this one concerning campaign financing they almost seem afraid of being critical of McCain. Even when Obama brings up the same point in his press conference today, they completely ignore it.

The media wants it close and that's it. That's really all there is to it, they want ratings. Fox News is, from what I understand, the leading news network in the country, and they are practically working as a free endorsement of McSame. With one channel being as blatantly biased for McSame as it is, yet STILL pulling in the most ratings, what message do you think that sends to everyone else?

Making it even worst is that the media often gets critiques of being "too liberal"....so of course, if they don't blow up petty Obama issues, and minimize huge McSame issues, they are in danger of being seen as leftist organizations.

 

[FitzOfRage]

There's no appeals for life in prison? Come on now.

Because of the stakes involved, death penalty cases are intentionally much more complicated throughout the entire process (which translates into higher costs).

For one thing, when you mention making sure the burden of proof is really high, and the 2 DNA labs, etc. those are issues that do typically come into play and tend to drive costs up. Everything just has a snowball effect, because the defense will try to get many more experts to refute the evidence, and the prosecution tries to find many more to counter. And all of that adds up quickly.

Another consideration is that the legal teams on both sides will be substantially larger than non-death cases, and that goes for both sides. They will also be given a lot more time to prepare for the case (which of course means more billable hours).

When you've got all these lawyers taking all this time, they usually end up filing many more pre-trial motions to try to include/exclude whatever evidence they can, which bogs down the process.

With death penalty cases you have 2 trials, one to decide whether or not they're guilty, and then one to decide the sentence. But the trial to decide the sentence can actually take longer than deciding whether or not the person is guilty.

You can literally have twice as many lawyers working 5 times longer than they would on a case where the death penalty is not sought.

Then after the trial, you have mandated appeals, and the majority of the time there is some error found that makes it necessary to either re-do the sentencing phase, the conviction, or both. And even if the conviction is upheld in that case, the sentence almost always becomes life in prison.

That's actually a big part of the problem as well in terms of the cost. Only about 10% of the people sentenced to death are ever actually executed, so really when comparing the cost, you're comparing the cost of a life sentence vs. the cost of a life sentence PLUS the cost of pursuing a death sentence.

Also keep in mind that during the appeals process (which is extremely lengthy), they're held on "death row", which is not just a figurative term. It costs a lot more to hold someone on death row because of the added security requirements and specialized facilities needed.

 

[HylianTom]

My view on capital punishment can be summed up this way: I have absolutely no problem with executing murderers and rapists, but I do have a serious problem with the idea that we always have the right person.

That's pretty much where I am. I'd be for it, but our system has been wrong all too often, and the idea of executing an innocent person makes me ill.

 

[Zaptruder]

Ultimately, death penalty is only a bad thing.

Not only is it more costly and expensive to have it in the system, but it doesn't have any real benefits over life inprisonment.

Moreover, a more complicated appeals process doesn't make a conviction that much more sure. It just makes it far more complicated.

Most devastating thing about death penalty though... is it dehumanizes people. It places the value of process above that of life. A life loss is tragic; but the right response is not to slay them in return. That's dehumanizing; to both the people that seek vengeance and to the person which vengeance is sought upon.

When you have the highest powers in the land implicitly saying that, it is ok to kill given the right circumstances, the people of the land cannot be expected to do better. It's an attitude that disseminates down, that becomes corrupted through the lens of each persons interpretation and situation.

Ultimately though, it's not a big deal. People that commit such terrible crimes need to be sequestered away from society regardless; I simply favour a more pragmatic approach to crime and justice; life imprisonment costs less, gives you a far greater window to reverse mistakes and isn't necessarily a lesser punishment than death.

 

[Metal B]

Executing rapists kills people!

If you as a rapists knows that you get the death penalty for raping, why would you let your victim go on living after it? Getting death penalty for killing or raping doesn't matter anymore. A silent corpse is better than the risk of a taking vicitim. Even if the raping vicitm has psychological problems after it, it still has his life.

This is why, the highest penalty should by only for killing and nothing else!

 

[worldrunover]

Executing rapists kills people!

If you as a rapists knows that you get the death penalty for raping, why would you let your victim go on living after it? Getting death penalty for killing or raping doesn't matter anymore. A silent corpse is better than the risk of a taking vicitim. Even if the raping vicitm has psychological problems after it, it still has his life.

This is why, the highest penalty should by only for killing and nothing else!

You're the only one who came up with a logical explanation on why the death penalty should NOT be enforced for child rape. The rest of you scare me :x

 

[Hitokage]

It is a good reason, but I don't think I've seen any actual data on that. Since the death penalty's effect as a deterrent has shown to be a short lived one, I wonder if it pans out in the same way.

 

[HylianTom]

I leave you all this before I go to work:

Novak Sees Colin Powell Defection to Obama

Conservative columnist/Prince of Darkness says:

“McCain strategists. . .wince in anticipating headlines generated by Powell’s expected endorsement of Obama.”

“Powell probably will enter Obama’s camp at a time of his own choosing.”

The Page float: Powell as the surprise keynote speaker at the Democrats’ convention in Denver.

http://thepage.time.com/2008/06/26/novak-sees-colin-powell-defection-to-obama

Wow. I don't trust Novak, but at the same time I can't help but hope that it's true..

 

[Anno]

People against the death penalty also think that it would lead to far fewer family-related cases being reported for fear of killing a family member. Apparently life in prison is acceptable, though. Who knows. I wish it were easy and accurate to execute people, sadly it's not.

 

[Justin Bailey]

I leave you all this before I go to work:

Novak Sees Colin Powell Defection to Obama



http://thepage.time.com/2008/06/26/novak-sees-colin-powell-defection-to-obama

Wow. I don't trust Novak, but at the same time I can't help but hope that it's true..

I don't believe this news.

 

[Joe]

remember that cbs news woman on the daily show not too long ago? the hot aussie, the one that sharply criticized the war and us media?

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06262008/news/worldnews/news_babes_iraqi_tryst_117192.htm

Sexy CBS siren Lara Logan spent her days covering the heat of the Iraq war - but that was nothing compared to the heat of her nights.

The "60 Minutes" reporter and former swimsuit model apparently courted two beaus while she was in Baghdad, and has been labeled a homewrecker for allegedly destroying the marriage of a civilian contractor there, sources said.

 

[worldrunover]

I think she was South African, but no less HOT. This news is HOT.

 

[Hellsing321]

Just got back from 2 weeks in Italy and where there was unsurprisingly, not very much coverage of the elections. So what'd I miss?

 

[Cheebs]

Just got back from 2 weeks in Italy and there is unsurprisingly, not very much coverage of the elections. So what'd I miss?

Uh... Obama and McCain have been aruging with eachother nonstop about issues. McCain wants to drill offshore for oil, Obama does not. McCain took public financing for the election, Obama did not. McCain wanted to do weekly joint town-halls, Obama didn't. Al Gore did a Obama rally with in Detroit. Hillary Clinton will be doing a rally with Obama in NH this friday.

Also both McCain and Obama came out in support of the FISA wire-tapping bill, both came out in dissaproval of the supreme court saying you cant give rapists the death penality.

Ralph Nader says Obama is afraid to talk black, and McCain's campaign manager said another terrorist attack would help McCain.

 

[Guileless]

The media does not necessarily want it to be close, they just want to have good material to write stories. The 2004 election was close but it was also boring because the polls barely changed from spring until election day, regardless of what happened. Taking the long view, the mainstream media certainly want Sen. Obama to win. Not only because the great majority of them would prefer him to govern, but because it will be a much, much better story if Sen. Obama wins rather than another old white guy who has already been on Meet the Press about a million times. And it's not even close.

 

[Hellsing321]

Uh... Obama and McCain have been aruging with eachother nonstop about issues. McCain wants to drill offshore for oil, Obama does not. McCain took public financing for the election, Obama did not. McCain wanted to do weekly joint town-halls, Obama didn't. Al Gore did a Obama rally with in Detroit. Hillary Clinton will be doing a rally with Obama in NH this friday.

Also both McCain and Obama came out in support of the FISA wire-tapping bill, both came out in dissaproval of the supreme court saying you cant give rapists the death penality.

Ralph Nader says Obama is afraid to talk black, and McCain's campaign manager said another terrorist attack would help McCain.

Same old same old, then.

 

[sangreal]

Heller affirmed, btw

from scotusblog:

The Court has released the opinion in District of Columbia v. Heller (07-290), on whether the District’s firearms regulations – which bar the possession of handguns and require shotguns and rifles to be kept disassembled or under trigger lock – violate the Second Amendment. The ruling below, which struck down the provisions in question, is affirmed.



Justice Scalia wrote the opinion. Justice Breyer dissented, joined by Justices Stevens, Souter and Ginsburg. We will provide a link to the decision as soon as it is available.

Meaning 2nd amendment protects indiv. right to own guns. The 5-4 split worries me about how far they went

 

[Guileless]

It has now gotten to the point where it's shocking to see anything other than a 5-4 decision.l

 

[sangreal]

btw, don't be surprised this time when Obama agrees with the court. He has stated in the past he agrees that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to bear arms

 

[maximum360]

Also, Jindal has signed into law chemical castration for sex offenders.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/26/louisiana-gov-jindal-auth_n_109342.html

 

[GhaleonEB]

Quinnipiac University/Wall Street Journal/washingtonpost.com polls

Colorado: Obama 49, McCain 44
Michigan: Obama 48, McCain 42
Minnesota: Obama 54, McCain 37
Wisconsin: Obama 52, McCain 39

http://thepage.time.com/

Looking good.

 

[maximum360]

Quinnipiac University/Wall Street Journal/washingtonpost.com polls

Colorado: Obama 49, McCain 44
Michigan: Obama 48, McCain 42
Minnesota: Obama 54, McCain 37
Wisconsin: Obama 52, McCain 39

http://thepage.time.com/

Looking good.

Obama is absolutely destroying McCain in Minnesota. Good times.

 

[eznark]

btw, don't be surprised this time when Obama agrees with the court. He has stated in the past he agrees that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to bear arms

last year he called the ban constitutional, so I don't see how he could agree with the ruling?

 

[syllogism]

last year he called the ban constitutional, so I don't see how he could agree with the ruling?

Actually it was his aide who said that, they already backpedaled earlier today by saying the statement was "inartful".

 

[Cheebs]

Quinnipiac University/Wall Street Journal/washingtonpost.com polls

Colorado: Obama 49, McCain 44
Michigan: Obama 48, McCain 42
Minnesota: Obama 54, McCain 37
Wisconsin: Obama 52, McCain 39

http://thepage.time.com/

Looking good.

Remember when Gabron claimed Obama wont win MI? This is like the 4th poll in MI that has him ahead.

 

[sangreal]

last year he called the ban constitutional, so I don't see how he could agree with the ruling?

This is what he said in February:

Reporter: [inaudible] electing you, they would have someone who not only knows the constitution but has taught it. What are your thoughts about the 2nd amendment?

BO: I believe the 2nd amendment means something. I do think that it speaks to an individual right. There’s been a long standing argument among constitutional scholars about whether the 2nd amendment referred simply to militias or whether it spoke to an individual right to possess arms. I think the latter is the better argument. There is an individual right to bear arms but it’s subject to common sense regulation, just like most of our rights are subject to common sense regulation. So I think there is a lot of room before you start bumping up against a constitutional barrier for us to institute some of the common sense gun laws that I just spoke about.

Which is pretty much what the court ruled.

(although some of his gun control proposals likely go too far)

 

[VanMardigan]

A co-working keeps urging me to donate money to Obama. Dude bypassed public financing and is setting all kinds of fund raising records, he don't need my money!!

I told her that I'll donate if I ever see Barrack begging for money the way Hillary did in the final months of her candidacy. :lol

 

[empty vessel]

Holy shit, just read that Obama disagrees with the Supreme Court decision on the death penalty for raping a child. This is the second time in a week that I've been disappointed with Obama's position (first was FISA).


He isn't as liberal as I hoped

Obama's disagreement with the Supreme Court decision on this case suggests he may appoint justices to the right of Kennedy and in the mold of Scalia, Thomas, Alito, and Roberts, the dissenting judges in this case and each rigidly ideologically conservative. Kennedy--a very conservative jurist who is to the right of former Justice O'Connor, who used to be the swing vote on the court before her retirement--was in the majority on this one.