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PoliGAF Interim Thread of USA General Elections (DAWN OF THE VEEP)

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S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Yaweee said:
'Fair trade' is socialism, as it sets arbitrary benchmarks for how much people 'should' get paid well above what they would be willing to work for. By arbitrarily inflating wages like that, you deny that work to people willing to do it for less.
Click to expand...
likewise unfettered free-trade fosters wrecks havoc on local economies and labor.

Mandark said:
Obama interview with the Wall Street Journal. Over a month old now, but pretty good.

I think Obama's position on free trade is roughly the same as the shifting consensus among center-left economists. People like Paul Krugman and Brad DeLong who were very pro-NAFTA back in the day are now looking at the empirical data and saying things haven't worked out like they thought.

Dani Rodrick's blog is a good place for discussion of stuff like that, and developmental economics.
Click to expand...
part of my reticence stems from this article, which didn't give me much confidence in light of that NAFTA debacle during the primaries. granted, his advisory pool is somewhere in the hundreds and pulls from a myriad of different ideological camps, so maybe i'm off-base here.

and i love Rodrick's blog - now if only Easterly or Sen would start blogging...
 
T

thekad

Banned
Yaweee said:
'Fair trade' is socialism, as it sets arbitrary benchmarks for how much people 'should' get paid well above what they would be willing to work for. By arbitrarily inflating wages like that, you deny that work to people willing to do it for less.



Though I'm still probably going to to vote for Barr, you can't deny that Obama understands the basic need for free markets.
Click to expand...

"Willing to do it for less" :lol
 
M

Mumei

Member
I lack access to CSPAN here at home, the stream won't play for me, and the other live stream I saw isn't working.

Do I have other options, or will I have to wait for the video to be uploaded somewhere? =\
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
tanod said:
Free trade is good but fair trade is much more important.
Click to expand...

The moniker of "fair trade" is a misnomer, it implies that which is not labelled as such is "unfair."

What voluntary trade is "unfair?"
 
T

tanod

when is my burrito
JayDubya said:
The moniker of "fair trade" is a misnomer, it implies that which is not labelled as such is "unfair."

What voluntary trade is "unfair?"
Click to expand...

Example: China manipulating currency against the dollar.
 
M

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
JD: As a libertarian who believes in inviolable property rights, you'd have to oppose FTA's with certain nations.

Unregulated trade with lots of non-democracies means making contracts with people who acquired their property through theft, backed by government muscle. You'd be validating the statist crimes of warlords and corrupt party bureaucrats.
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
I love the German Obama chants with the Berlin accent.

Now I want to go back to Germany in the worst way.. I think I forgot how to speak it though, its been years.
 
B

besada

Banned
Holy shit at these people touching him like he's the messiah. MSNBC is running a bunch of crowd hugging shots. It's a little creepy.
 
S

siamesedreamer

Banned
Factories in China and Boston are melting the ice caps!!!

Other than the vomit-inducing environmental fearmongering, it was a pretty good speech for someone who wasn't speaking as a person running for POTUS.
 
P

polyh3dron

Banned
besada said:
Holy shit at these people touching him like he's the messiah. MSNBC is running a bunch of crowd hugging shots. It's a little creepy.
Click to expand...
Well it is kind of amazing to see a presidential candidate look like he knows what he's doing after dealing with a bumbling buffoon for 8 years who has helped to turn our country to shit.

Leave it to a country that re-elected GEORGE W BUSH to say that too many people liking someone is a bad thing.
 
M

Macam

Banned
Mandark said:
Dani Rodrick's blog is a good place for discussion of stuff like that, and developmental economics.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reference, although apparently it's Dani Rodrik, not Rodrick. I'm not familiar with him or his work, but I just wanted to point it out and provide a link, in case anyone else was interested.
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Mandark said:
JD: As a libertarian who believes in inviolable property rights, you'd have to oppose FTA's with certain nations.

Unregulated trade with lots of non-democracies means making contracts with people who acquired their property through theft, backed by government muscle. You'd be validating the statist crimes of warlords and corrupt party bureaucrats.
Click to expand...

The free market would keep them in check, just like it did with Enron.
 
P

polyh3dron

Banned
siamesedreamer said:
Factories in China and Boston are melting the ice caps!!!

Other than the vomit-inducing environmental fearmongering, it was a pretty good speech for someone who wasn't speaking as a person running for POTUS.
Click to expand...
cuz global warming is a myth amirite
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
besada said:
Holy shit at these people touching him like he's the messiah. MSNBC is running a bunch of crowd hugging shots. It's a little creepy.
Click to expand...
Where's that picture of Obama being swallowed by a crowd in the US like they were a pack of zombies when I need it?
 
S

SouthernDragon

Member
Did you know that denial of global warming is pretty much confined to the U.S.?

Also, in all honestly, I like have siamesedreamer around. He provides a different point of view to all the Obamalove, even if... well, some of it is flat out wrong. At least he's not rude or baiting.
 
P

polyh3dron

Banned
reilo said:
The free market would keep them in check, just like it did with Enron.
Click to expand...
Yep, and the free market would keep mortgage lenders in check too by correcting itself as well. There'd be a bit of collateral damage, but it's par for the course I say. They're just a bunch of whiners.
 
D

Deus Ex Machina

Member
Der Speigel OnLine Photo Gallery: Obama Takes in the German Capital

0,1020,1251030,00.jpg


#1 of 24 Photos

Link to Photo Gallery: http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-33614.html
 
M

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
PD: It's pointless to vote against something in Congress but meaningful to say you're against it? I don't think you get how this works.

As for why leaving is a good idea: Because the US has proved that it can neither guide political outcomes there nor stop massive campaigns of violence when the political situation goes in that direction.

There was a massive explosion in violence while the US was there. It died down because the people behind it achieved their goals, again in spite of American presence. It resulted in a huge demographic shift in Baghdad and 4-5 million refugees, all on US watch.

The various factions in Iraq will either hammer out power sharing agreements at the local and national levels (likely based on oil money, patronage, and the tacit acceptance of sectarian/regional militias) that keeps violence at a low simmer, or they will have one or more mini-wars that settle those issues through force.

This is going to happen whether the US is there or not. US forces haven't been able to settle the Kirkuk issue (still!), reconcile Maliki's national government with the Awakening councils, marginalize Sadr or get him to disband his militia, or make the ISF a non-partisan force.

Besides all of which, THE IRAQI POPULATION WANTS US GONE. It's kind of important to remember the agency of the people we are supposedly helping. The only reason that the GTFO sentiment isn't completely overwhelming in the Iraqi parliament is that a lot of the UIA depends on the US for power, and even then Maliki's forced to start talking about withdrawal and crap.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
That makes no sense, white people don't like Obama.

BTW, I officially approve of the nickname given to Obama's plane, "O Force One"
 
K

Kola

Member
Overall a good speech. I think Obama expected more of his direct address to the Berlin crowd ("people of Berlin - people of the world" etc). The reference to Reagan's "Tear down this wall" - I think Obama used that phrase in regard to the walls between the religions - was a bit too obvious and one should remember that he is still a fuckin' candidate for office, not a president yet. Also the setting was quite...irritating. The Siegessäule (Victory Column) was erected after waging a war against France. I know he referenced that and talked about Europe finally uniting, but still...

But as I mentioned above, overall a good speech - compared to that monkey ass you have as a president right now it was champions league.
 
B

besada

Banned
What sort of retard on McCain's staff decided that to combat the Obama press in Germany, he'd give a press conference in a faux-German tourist village?

I find the incompetency of McCain's staff to be deeply weird. But not as weird as they chiming bells in the background, while McCain tries to speak in front of the Fudge Haus.
 
E

Evlar

Banned
Kola said:
Overall a good speech. I think Obama expected more of his direct address to the Berlin crowd ("people of Berlin - people of the world" etc). The reference to Reagan's "Tear down this wall" - I think Obama used that phrase in regard to the walls between the religions - was a bit too obvious and one should remember that he is still a fuckin' candidate for office, not a president yet. Also the setting was quite...irritating. The Siegessäule (Victory Column) was erected after the winning a war against France. I knwo he referenced that and talked about Europe finally uniting, but still...

But as I mentioned above, overall a good speech - compared to that monkey ass you have as a president right now it was champions league.
Click to expand...
The campaign wanted to hold the speech at the Brandenburg Gate but Merkel disapproved.
 
D

Door2Dawn

Banned
quinnipiac has McCain gaining in battleground states.


Colorado
McCain (R) 46% (+2)
Obama (D) 44% (-5)

Michigan
Obama (D) 46% (-2)
McCain (R) 42% (+0)

Minnesota
Obama (D) 46% (-8)
McCain (R) 44% (+7)

Wisconsin
Obama (D) 50% (-1)
McCain (R) 39% (+0)


Lets welcome our new president!
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
"Senator McCain: Can you tell us how the meeting with the Dalai Lama came up?"
"It came up because we contacted him for a meeting"

What an amazing and deep answer.
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
Mandark said:
JD: As a libertarian who believes in inviolable property rights, you'd have to oppose FTA's with certain nations.

Unregulated trade with lots of non-democracies means making contracts with people who acquired their property through theft, backed by government muscle. You'd be validating the statist crimes of warlords and corrupt party bureaucrats.
Click to expand...

You mean like trading with Cuba, which I support? Because whatever's in the financial best interest of our people is fine by me, and they have the leadership they deserve for not overthrowing the Castros? You mean like that?

Your comment makes no sense.
 
K

KRS7

Member
Door2Dawn said:
quinnipiac has McCain gaining in battleground states.


Colorado
McCain (R) 46% (+2)
Obama (D) 44% (-5)

Michigan
Obama (D) 46% (-2)
McCain (R) 42% (+0)

Minnesota
Obama (D) 46% (-8)
McCain (R) 44% (+7)

Wisconsin
Obama (D) 50% (-1)
McCain (R) 39% (+0)


Lets welcome our new president!
Click to expand...

That sucks. I heard McCain was up 10 in Ohio as well. I am not sure how he is doing it, but somehow he is continuing to rise while Obama remains pretty stagnant. Hopefully this trip will change that.
 
M

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
scorcho said:
likewise unfettered free-trade fosters wrecks havoc on local economies and labor.

part of my reticence stems from this article, which didn't give me much confidence in light of that NAFTA debacle during the primaries. granted, his advisory pool is somewhere in the hundreds and pulls from a myriad of different ideological camps, so maybe i'm off-base here.

and i love Rodrick's blog - now if only Easterly or Sen would start blogging...
Click to expand...

I read that Klein piece. I think Noam Schieber's article in TNR is a bit more revealing about Obama's decisionmaking process (very pragmatist and data-driven, rather than tied to theoretical dogma).

I'll admit that I haven't read much Naomi Klein, and I do think a lot of anti-"free trade" people got short shrift in the national conversation, but her story seems a bit ehhh. Proving the decline of Milton Friedman with a letter signed by non-economics professors is a bit of a reach. Even the leftiest econ types I know think he did some great stuff in the field.

It really seems to me that the decline of the neoliberal trade regime is going to have more to do with influential mainstream economists changing their mind, rather than a populist challenge from the left.

I've been rolling this over in my mind for a couple months now, and it's still coming out confused. Bah.
 
K

Kola

Member
Evlar said:
The campaign wanted to hold the speech at the Brandenburg Gate but Merkel disapproved.
Click to expand...

I know. But if that location was no option his staff should have picked a different place, not the Victory Column. It's not like Berlin doesn't have any other good options.
 
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