Karma Kramer
Banned
Any place I can watch this speech!? I missed it.
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PoliGAF Interim Thread of USA General Elections (DAWN OF THE VEEP)
- Thread starter Amir0x
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Mandark said:
And yet, you advocate government that's pushier and that steals more shit.
Depends. Do you accept the cultural status quo or do you try to fight it / change it subvert it / escape it? In many of these cultures that practice female circumcision or other such mutilations, the parents accept and pass on these traditions to their children and the shit just keeps rolling downhill.
Or perhaps you're talking about victims of raping marauders in Darfur, and on the same continent, quite a few years before that, you're definitely talking about people that got beat upside the head by members of another tribe then traded to Westerners and put on boats; no, no one deserves those actions being done to them. However, that's not what I'm talking about. But if you consign yourself to accept your fate and do nothing about it, or worse, condone it or help to perpetuate it, then not only are you not going to get out, if you even want to, but you're as much a part of the problem as your oppressors themselves. You're just part of that same system and you're helping to perpetuate it.
It's not our job to go around saving or policing the world. I still don't see that much of a difference between trade prohibitions or boots on the ground, either.
Also: who would Mandark blockade / sanction / embargo, exactly, and why? How far do you take it?
Lv99 Slacker
Member
XxenobladerxX
Member
Could anyone tell me what were the Objectives of the surge,and what Objectives have been met and what hasn't?
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
RaijinFY said:
He prefers the terms "vessel" as he's slightly more prolific in the word department then fellow vacant suit Dubya.
JayDubya said:
So a slave who doesn't rebel is just as responsible for the state of affairs as the ruling authority who would hang that slave if he did.
Good to know!
PS Should have written "East Africa" rather than West. I plead temporary dyslexia and no, it has nothing to do with Darfur. Nor were most slaves taken from Africa. The vast majority were born into it.
Tyrone Slothrop
Banned
RaijinFY said:
and a terrorist, at that.
Smiles and Cries
Member
I can't believe they let him go into the crowd 
even for a little bit I find it scary
what is next France or England?
even for a little bit I find it scarywhat is next France or England?
maximum360
Member
RaijinFY said:
So the best option then is McCain? We know that McCain completely differs from Bush on policy issues (something like 95% percent of the time).
Tyrone Slothrop
Banned
Smiles and Cries said:
i believe he's coming back to the US after this
AndersTheSwede
Member
Love the one on the right. :lol
Mandark said:
I was specifically referring to people living and working complacently under a fascist / communist regime when this started, but yes, if you are unjustly held against your will, be that in the context of being a slave or whatever, there's a moral imperative / duty to resist, try to escape, subvert your captors however possible, etc.
Smiles and Cries
Member
thanks I glad no more speeches it might backfire if they did thatTamanon said:
worldrunover
Member
XxenobladerxX said:
According to McCain, the surge is anything that has gone right with the war since the beginning (2003), and everything that has gone wrong is failed Bush policy. However, all the things that went right were completely endorsed by McCain, and all of those components are considered the "surge".
SouthernDragon
Member
I like watching Mandark and JayDubya fight. It's so educational.
JayDubya said:
To the best of my knowledge, this is how that got started.
So, maybe I'm inferring the wrong thing, but it sounds like you are saying that the slave is just as guilty of his enslavement, by his complicity in not fulfilling his supposed "moral duty" to fight his enslavement, as are the people who have enslaved him.
But if that's not what you meant, feel free to correct.
thekad said:
a) How is a slave that much different from being a citizen living under a communist or fascist regime? How are either of these things that much different from being a feudal peasant, serving the whims of your liege? I equate things that are neatly and nearly equivalent.
b) Do we not encourage people to, you know, do something to fight against their own oppression? Is that like, wrong, or bad somehow, and I missed the memo? If our government were to suddenly collapse tomorrow and martial law / military dictatorship were imposed, would we not have a duty to resist, or would it be totally cool if we all just sat on our hands?
c) This is the logic I have used, repeatedly, when saying that Iraq was none of our business, and also when continuing by suggesting that the lack of effort on the part of the Iraqi people to unify and replace their own terrifically awful dictator on their own continues to play a role in the current quagmire. In other words, if they're not going to fight for their own freedoms, why should we have the people that volunteered to defend our nation fight and die for their sake?
Apparently this line of logic is strange to everyone here, despite almost everyone here, down to the last person, opposing action in Iraq.
JayDubya said:
Well, a citizen living under Communism might make a halfway decent wage and have some ability to form their own families without fear of being subject to the diaspora of the institution of slavery, might have the ability to live where they wish to live, and a slave or feudal peasant both probably lack both of those.
And I suspect that the slave, having probably grown up as a slave and knowing nothing else, might not be aware that he has a "moral imperative" to resist his enslavement, or know that it is morally wrong. Perhaps the Communist citizen may or may not know that.
They are similar in lack of property rights, I suppose.
No, you missed the memo that it is somehow wrong to claim that because a slave does not try to subvert his captors in some way, regardless of personal experiences, situation, or whether resistance would do more bad than good for him, makes him just as responsible for his slavery.
Encouraging people to fight oppression is good - saying that the oppressed are just as responsible as their oppressors is wrong.
Not wanting to bog ourselves down in a neverending war that will do more harm than good = laughing in the face of oppressed peoples? That's ridiculous.
As is your continued obliviousness to the fact that slaves had the "choice" of either submitting themselves or being murdered. Stop with that garbage.
As is your continued obliviousness to the fact that slaves had the "choice" of either submitting themselves or being murdered. Stop with that garbage.
Mumei said:
I don't believe that's so. Passively accepting your oppression is itself an active choice. Not only that, it is a moral lapse.
I'm sick of being the target here, though; I asked a specific question.
This started about "fair trade." Mandark said something terrifically erroneous about me being obligated to support "fair trade" and I rebuked him. Now, let's talk about this precious "fair trade": who should we not trade with and why? How far should it go? How much should we hurt our economic well-being for the sake of moralizing?
RaijinFY said:
JibJab addresses the situation pretty well.
I have one or two things to say about change.Like the Change we must change to the change we hold dear.I really like change have I made myself clear. He will talk about change til your deaf in the ear.
Its a ritual every 4 years where they promise anything you want to hear so they can win the crown they are chasing
polyh3dron
Banned
Most of us that opposed action in Iraq opposed it because:JayDubya said:
A) Iraq had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11 and Rumsfeld tried to make it seem like they in fact did have something to do with it.
B) The US shouldn't be the world's police.
C) It would just end up encouraging more Middle East youth to join these terrorist groups, fanning the flames if you will.
JayDubya said:
I disagree. If I murder you, it is not your fault for being murdered because you inadequately defended yourself - it is my fault for murdering you. Period. It is not the fault of the woman who wore the slutty dress and then got raped - it is the fault of the man who couldn't control himself. It is not the fault of the slave who was born into slavery for not fighting his slavery enough - it is the fault of the men and women who enslaved him.
The victim is not the one at fault. It is good if they resist - I'd probably go so far as to say that I believe that there is a moral superiority in the choice to resist - but it is not ever right to say that the victim is as much at fault as the person committing the crime or the atrocity.
Mumei said:
Um. You're extrapolating quite a bit too much from a specific comment.
"It's wrong to passively accept oppression" != "don't wear short skirts, you slut."
Was every citizen of the Third Reich a "victim," by your definition a few posts up? Who was and who wasn't, and why?
* * *
Also, I guess TJ's not too popular around these parts but still, holy shit, no one gets where I'm coming from? Something something about it being the right, no, the duty of the people to cast off bad government? Kind of an important bit of prose? Ringing any bells?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Arguing with a libertarian is pointless.
These are the same people that tend to act like business is the fix of most problems instead of the route of.
These are the same people that tend to act like business is the fix of most problems instead of the route of.
polyh3dron
Banned
Thunder Monkey said:
this
Lv99 Slacker
Member
lol @ Margaret Brennan on Market Wrap. MSNBC's been experiencing a lot of technical difficulties lately, haven't they?
*sigh* Yeah. I'm a child.
*sigh* Yeah. I'm a child.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
AndersTheSwede said:
Love the one on the right. :lol
i want the pin on the right so badly. !
JayDubya said:
Honestly, I don't know. Depends on the specifics of their situation. Consent (not passive consent, or consent from fear of punishment, but consent born of substantiative agreement with the government in question) seems to me to take away the "victim" status quite a bit from many people, though.
Jew / Roma / homosexual / etc. who lived in (and possibly died in) a concentration camp, definitely a victim. Person who voted for Hitler, supported his policies, supported going to war, etc.; not a victim.
Does, "It's complicated," suffice?
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