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[Mandark]

You mean like trading with Cuba, which I support? Because whatever's in the financial best interest of our people is fine by me, and they have the leadership they deserve for not overthrowing the Castros? You mean like that?

Your comment makes no sense.

First, yikes to the bolded part.

Second, you're not fine with whatever's "in the best financial interest of our people". Only in favor of the stuff that doesn't run counter to your concept of property rights.

Third, the point is that trading with someone who stole their goods isn't exactly what Nozick had in mind. Trading with, say Burma or Iran winds up doing that on a very large scale.

 

[JayDubya]

I'll admit that I haven't read much Naomi Klein

I wouldn't bother. All I'm aware of from her was her work on "Shock Doctrine," and it was utter drivel.

 

[LizardKing]

did anyone else see on cnn the mccain interview. A reporter went to ask him a question...

Reporter: "Senator Mccain, Elizabeth Holmes of the Wall St. Journal..."
McCain: "Who else has a question?" *Takes different question
Reporter: Owned Face

it was hilarious

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Whats her name? mmm

 

[Mandark]

Dude, you thought Treasure of the Sierra Madre was intolerable propaganda.

No offense, but I think our inclinations on polemic and art are different enough that I should seek other advice.

 

[Tamanon]

did anyone else see on cnn the mccain interview. A reporter went to ask him a question...

Reporter: "Senator Mccain, Elizabeth Holmes of the Wall St. Journal..."
McCain: "Who else has a question?" *Takes different question
Reporter: Owned Face

it was hilarious

Man, it's a wonder he doesn't get great coverage. And that's bizarre because the WSJ is a pretty big McCain supporter.

 

[JayDubya]

Dude, you thought Treasure of the Sierra Madre was intolerable propaganda.

Uhhh, because it was? I mean goddamn, talk about preachy. I was on a big Bogey kick, and I rather liked most of what I saw, but that film... ugh.

First, yikes to the bolded part.

Why? Just as it's not our government's place to militarily intervene and save them, it's also not our government's place to make our people not be allowed to trade for our own interest out of some moralizing bullshit. If people don't want to trade with them, they won't, hence free and voluntary trade, but there should be no restrictions on trade with say, Cuba.

And I absolutely mean that; citizens living under a communist regime that aren't trying to escape or overthrow the government are getting exactly what they deserve. It's their own responsibility to fight for their own freedom. Furthermore, lack of trade hurts the people more than their awful leaders that we apparently oppose, so, it's not even efficacious.

 

[soul creator]

Holy crap McCain, your hypocrisy increases by the day. So much for being against those "guilt by endorser" smears.

Yep McCain, that Castro is just so vastly in love with Obama

 

[Lv99 Slacker]

I can't decide which pic I like more.

McCainbrella or this

 

[Mandark]

And I absolutely mean that; citizens living under a communist regime that aren't trying to escape or overthrow the government are getting exactly what they deserve. It's their own responsibility to fight for their own freedom. Furthermore, lack of trade hurts the people more than their awful leaders that we apparently oppose, so, it's not even efficacious.

Super double yikes.

 

[Tamanon]

I can't decide which pic I like more.

McCainbrella or this

:lol Is that real?

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I can't decide which pic I like more.

McCainbrella or this

So cool

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Why can't you regulate just a little in a free trade market?

 

[Branduil]

Obama would make a pretty good German president.

 

[JayDubya]

Super double yikes.

What? If you live under a terrible dictatorship and you don't try to subvert it or get the fuck out, then you're accepting and even endorsing that fate. Doing nothing is an active choice.

That's like, the whole spirit of the American Revolution. And the whole notion that we can and should replace our government again if it ever falls down the path to tyranny.

 

[joey_z]

ICH BIN EIN BERLINER!



oh wait...

 

[Macam]

Second, you're not fine with whatever's "in the best financial interest of our people". Only in favor of the stuff that doesn't run counter to your concept of property rights.

If it were anyone else, I'd have pointed that out since it's a flat out contradiction to many of his positions (including the one Eric P alluded to) but I just don't have patience to talk to a brick wall. Also, a huge wtf at the latest statements.

I'll have to catch this Obama Berlin speech later. It seems like there may be some interesting info-nuggets in there.

 

[Mandark]

Who are you really? Jim Hellwig?

 

[Tamanon]

Interesting that he talked about getting rid of nuclear arsenals the world over including the US ones.

 

[StoOgE]

I can't decide which pic I like more.

McCainbrella or this

Are the French preparing to surrender to Obama or something?

 

[Branduil]

I wouldn't go so far as to say a particular group of people "deserves" a dictator, but generally, a dictator doesn't gain that power without the support of a great deal of the people. Sure, once the tyrannical government is instituted, it's hard to resist it's momentum, but it can't exist in the first place without the consent of a large number of people.

 

[Lv99 Slacker]

:lol Is that real?

Apparently. I got it from SA's Obamarama thread.

 

[FitzOfRage]

I know. But if that location was no option his staff should have picked a different place, not the Victory Column. It's not like Berlin doesn't have any other good options.

As a practical matter, are there that many sites in Berlin that could

A) accomodate the expected large turn out (which at one point they were estimating could hit a million,though that obviously didn't happen)

B) have no ties to anything "bad" (for lack of a better word) historically

 

[Kola]

As a practical matter, are there that many sites in Berlin that could

A) accomodate the expected large turn out (which at one point they were estimating could hit a million,though that obviously didn't happen)

B) have no ties to anything "bad" (for lack of a better word) historically

Yeah, I guess. For example infront of the Reichstag. The Pariser Platz (square) which hosts the Brandeburger Gate is quite small btw.

 

[JayDubya]

If it were anyone else, I'd have pointed that out since it's a flat out contradiction to many of his positions (including the one Eric P alluded to) but I just don't have patience to talk to a brick wall. Also, a huge wtf at the latest statements.

a) No, it's not. At all. And this is not exactly something I've not said before. Early and often.

b) Eric P's comment was stupid, frankly, and uninformed. I've said my bones about the terms "pro-life / choice" many, many times on GAF and suggested why they're incredibly inaccurate and even demeaning in their implications. The terms really "pro-life" and "pro-choice" only accurately refer to persistent life ethic near-pacifists and anarchists that don't believe there should be a government to intervene in anything for any reason.

c) What's wrong or even remotely controversial with saying that people that won't fight for their own rights don't really deserve another nation to go out of their way by use of military force or trade embargos? The former ends up with massive collateral damage (see Iraq), the latter ends up punishing the people more than the leaders (see Cuba), and in either case, we lose out and nothing's really done until the people o'er yonder wise up and get their own shit together.

That's controversial? Especially in a crowd that specifically opposes the invasion of Iraq? Or is it solely because someone with an (R) next to his name initiated this conflict?

S'cool, that's usually what most Republocrats do.

I wouldn't go so far as to say a particular group of people "deserves" a dictator, but generally, a dictator doesn't gain that power without the support of a great deal of the people. Sure, once the tyrannical government is instituted, it's hard to resist it's momentum, but it can't exist in the first place without the consent of a large number of people.

Somewhat ironic we're talking about Germany atm.

Why can't you regulate just a little in a free trade market?

Because then, by definition, it's not a free trade market, and "free trade market" just becomes a misapplied political buzzword to use to mislabel what we have.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

here's a money shot!!

 

[Mandark]

JD: Who in the last couple of pages has suggested we invade anyone? Seriously.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

photos from the famous Bush trip to Germany

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

CBS News Complains That Less Than A Million People Showed Up

Obama draws 200,000 people in a foreign country to a speech such that there is not even room for more people, and CBS writes the following:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/24/politics/main4289066.shtml

"Despite talk in the German media that Obama's speech would draw a crowd of up to one million, it was more like tens of thousands - a massive crowd, regardless - that came to hear the presumptive Democratic nominee, reports CBS News' Maria Gavrilovic. A local band warmed the crowd up for over an hour before the much anticipated speech."

They're upset that a full third of the city's population didn't go?

 

[JayDubya]

JD: Who in the last couple of pages has suggested we invade anyone? Seriously.

I know you're smart enough to connect the dots I'm drawing.

 

[Tamanon]

I'm not sure where else people could've been fit, that place was packed thousands deep.:lol Good ol' CBS.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I know. But if that location was no option his staff should have picked a different place, not the Victory Column. It's not like Berlin doesn't have any other good options.

isnt it the same place where the love parade is held?

 

[scorcho]

I'll admit that I haven't read much Naomi Klein, and I do think a lot of anti-"free trade" people got short shrift in the national conversation, but her story seems a bit ehhh. Proving the decline of Milton Friedman with a letter signed by non-economics professors is a bit of a reach. Even the leftiest econ types I know think he did some great stuff in the field.

It really seems to me that the decline of the neoliberal trade regime is going to have more to do with influential mainstream economists changing their mind, rather than a populist challenge from the left.

I've been rolling this over in my mind for a couple months now, and it's still coming out confused. Bah.

which i just came around to last night after discovering DeLong's Mini-Me commentary on Keynes/Friedman. (project syndicate is great, btw)

and you're right on the last bit, although i'd hazard to say the entire neoliberal orthodoxy has declined - you see it in the evolving debate surrounding development/post-conflict reconstruction politics, the changing practices of the IMF/World Bank and, in the not too distant future, the utter utter failure of our financial markets to regulate itself.

Macam: Drudge linked to the entire text. the only thing you'll miss is Obama's pitch-perfect delivery.

 

[Keylime]

here's a money shot!!

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1251858,00.jpg[img][/QUOTE]
Damn...dibs on the german chick on the dude's shoulders.

DIBS

 

[Particle Physicist]

did anyone else see on cnn the mccain interview. A reporter went to ask him a question...

Reporter: "Senator Mccain, Elizabeth Holmes of the Wall St. Journal..."
McCain: "Who else has a question?" *Takes different question
Reporter: Owned Face

it was hilarious

he doesnt want to be asked any hard questions. :/

 

[polyh3dron]

CBS News Complains That Less Than A Million People Showed Up

That's that librul media for ya.

o wait

 

[Eric P]

b) Eric P's comment was stupid, frankly, and uninformed.

yes, as it was directly addressing your comment, i figured i would put it into context you would recognize

 

[Tamanon]

http://www.fcnp.com/index.php?optio...-fairfax-talk&catid=13:news-stories&Itemid=76

Wait....wha? Terry McAuliffe is promoting Tim Kaine for VP instead of Hillary? Does he know something?

 

[Mandark]

I know you're smart enough to connect the dots I'm drawing.

I think there's a pretty wide gulf between "unconditional free trade with everyone under all circumstances" and "invade countries to replace regimes we feel are illegitimate."

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

That's that librul media for ya.

o wait

and damn cbs for editing the mccain segment. damn libruls.

 

[JayDubya]

yes, as it was directly addressing your comment, i figured i would put it into context you would recognize

Perhaps I was wrong about your intent, perhaps not, but knowing that I oppose abortion, and reading my comment, I believe you were trying to wittily respond with "oh, but he's pro-life, and he's ragging on 'fair trade,' so I'll get him good with this one, tee-hee," which came out as:

like prolife?

Of course, I myself have gone on lengthy tirades of invective against both "pro-life" and "pro-choice" as inaccurate, stupid terms, and it appears as if that's gone over your head somehow. Or I'm reading you wrong, in which case, my bad.

I think there's a pretty wide gulf between "unconditional free trade with everyone under all circumstances" and "invade countries to replace regimes we feel are illegitimate."

Maybe those dots weren't quite as clear as all that, then.

But yes, of course there is. That's the difference between, well, me, and a Wilsonian foreign policy advocate. A very, very wide gulf, yes.

I was not contrasting desirable global free trade with undesirable use of military force, and this is not a fine distinction, either; what I was doing was to compare the use of trade sanctions / embargoes and the use of military force.

That's not exactly apples to oranges. Maybe red delicious apples to mcintosh apples, or something (yay produce).

 

[Incognito]

Can't be serious

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) on Thursday announced joint appointments to a landmark ethics review board that for the first time will allow private citizens to review allegations against members.

Still, four out of six members of the board for the newly created Office of Congressional Ethics (OCE) will be former members of Congress, including former CIA Director Porter Goss (R-Fla.), who will serve as co-chairman.

 

[Eric P]

Perhaps I was wrong about your intent, perhaps not, but knowing that I oppose abortion, and reading my comment, you were trying to wittily respond with "oh, but he's pro-life, and he's ragging on 'fair trade,' so I'll get him good with this one, tee-hee," which came out as:

it was honestly more intended as commentary on distilling issues down to a devisive lexicon, so it was kind of pointed in favor of your statement.

 

[GhaleonEB]

http://www.fcnp.com/index.php?optio...-fairfax-talk&catid=13:news-stories&Itemid=76

Wait....wha? Terry McAuliffe is promoting Tim Kaine for VP instead of Hillary? Does he know something?

He knows Hillary isn't going to be veep.

 

[JayDubya]

it was honestly more intended as commentary on distilling issues down to a devisive lexicon, so it was kind of pointed in favor of your statement.

In that case, I should have simply said, "Exactly."

Perhaps Macam's tone colored how I read your post. /shrug.

 

[Cheebs]

http://www.fcnp.com/index.php?optio...-fairfax-talk&catid=13:news-stories&Itemid=76

Wait....wha? Terry McAuliffe is promoting Tim Kaine for VP instead of Hillary? Does he know something?

Terry has a career at the DNC outside of working for the Clintons, he has other politicians he is loyal to other than them.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

 

[Eric P]

In that case, I should have simply said, "Exactly."

Perhaps Macam's tone colored how I read your post. /shrug.

http://www.tnr.com/story_print.html?id=69067f1c-d089-474b-a8a0-945d1deb420b

The New Republic has a good review breaking down the flaws in Naomi's book.

 

[Mandark]

Saying you won't trade with someone because their shit is stolen is more than just slightly different from bombing them.

Also, you realize your "government they deserve" logic would mean that West African women with mutilated genitals deserve what they got. Ditto chattel slaves in the antebellum United States.

 

[Hitokage]

Ditto libertarians in America.