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[LuCkymoON]

Arguing with a libertarian is pointless.

These are the same people that tend to act like business is the fix of most problems instead of the route of.

I agree, they would be better served living out in the woods alone.

 

[JayDubya]

Honestly, I don't know. Depends on the specifics of their situation. Consent (not passive consent, or consent from fear of punishment, but consent born of substantiative agreement with the government in question) seems to me to take away the "victim" status quite a bit from many people, though.

Jew / Roma / homosexual / etc. who lived in (and possibly died in) a concentration camp, definitely a victim. Person who voted for Hitler, supported his policies, supported going to war, etc.; not a victim.

Does, "It's complicated," suffice?

It's complicated does not suffice, but the preceding answer explains your perspective.

The difference is that I would not distinguish passive consent from active endorsement.


@ all: I don't mind all this bullshit so much. If ad homs are all you got, I automatically win.

 

[Tamanon]

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if this negative tone McCain's been taking hasn't put Wes Clark back on the Veep list after all.

 

[polyh3dron]

 

[Mumei]

The difference is that I would not distinguish passive consent from active endorsement.

Sort of the way you don't differentiate between vehicular manslaughter while driving drunk and between sneaking into someone's house and murdering them in cold blood?

Spoiler

Too low? <_<

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Arguing with a Democrat is pointless.

These are the same people that tend to act like government is the fix of most problems instead of the root.

Either way someone's gonna get fucked.

I'd rather get fucked by someone I can kick out with a vote.

 

[JayDubya]

Either way someone's gonna get fucked.

I'd rather get fucked by someone I can kick out with a vote.

Funny, I'd rather not get fucked by someone I choose not to buy stuff from than definitely get fucked by the guy I have to buy stuff from whether I want it or not.

Sort of the way you don't differentiate between vehicular manslaughter while driving drunk and between sneaking into someone's house and murdering them in cold blood?

Spoiler

Too low? <_<

Not that much like that, but thank you for mentioning how Ted Kennedy deserves to be in a prison cell but isn't and could never be because that part that ends in "ennedy" and begins with a "K."

Also, you're the one defending and excusing Joe Average Nazi citizen, not me, so don't be pointing fingers at me like I'm the one saying something absurd.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

No moar eminent domain, plz.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Funny, I'd rather not get fucked by someone I choose not to buy stuff from.

Doesn't stop those from making billions on the backs of others pain and misery.

When the people can kick a CEO out of their position when using illegal workers for cheap prices, when the people themselves can shape the future of a business. Then and only then can business take the place of government.

Business has one goal. Profit. When that is your only motivating force people will get fucked.

 

[soul creator]

lol, reminds me of "Xbox Live Arcade release guy" that used to be posted over on the gaming side

 

[polyh3dron]

I had a whole big post on why deregulation in business is bad for our economy and referred to the radio, energy and oil businesses as evidence, but fuck.. it is really impossible to argue with a libertarian and it wouldn't get through to him.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Any place I can watch this speech!? I missed it.

Video link of the ENTIRE UNEDITED Obama speech in Berlin -from Dutch News Service:

http://www.nos.nl/nosjournaal/artikelen/2008/7/24/240708_obama_berlijn.html

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Ebony and Ivory!

 

[JayDubya]

Doesn't stop those from making billions on the backs of others pain and misery.

Yeah, I think you've got oppressive governments and business confused again; funny how that works.

When the people can kick a CEO out of their position when using illegal workers for cheap prices, when the people themselves can shape the future of a business.

What's an illegal worker, and why are they illegal? Why are cheap prices somehow bad when a low price index brings up the quality of life? If "the people" don't like the CEO, why are they buying the product he's responsible for? Why can't "the people" shape their own business or favor a business that supports their policies? Since when are "the people" suddenly a monolithic entity with the same goals?

Business has one goal. Profit. When that is your only motivating force people will get fucked.

There's something wrong with voluntary self-interest? What might that be? And why would that involve people "getting fucked?" And since you keep bringing up fucking, I presume you imply raping, but how can that really be the case (see voluntary)?

When at every level everything is guided by voluntary self-interest, be it from working for the company, or buying it's services / products, who is fucked (when they don't want to be)?

 

[scorcho]

it's not only deregulation in business - look at the lack of regulation in the financial sector that bred the latest cyclical meltdown of our economy.

When at every level everything is guided by voluntary self-interest, be it from working for the company, or buying it's services / products, who is fucked (when they don't want to be)?

this is one of those times when theory has no grounding to reality.

http://www.harchcapital.com/Pdfs/how to fix it- welling.pdf

 

[Particle Physicist]

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if this negative tone McCain's been taking hasn't put Wes Clark back on the Veep list after all.

why is that?

 

[JayDubya]

http://www.harchcapital.com/Pdfs/how to fix it- welling.pdf

Yup, that's certainly an editorial, alright.

 

[polyh3dron]

McCain Gives Obama Shit For Speaking Outside of The U.S., Forgets About His Speech In Canada, LOL

In his interview with NBC's Kelly O'Donnell, which will air on NBC's Nightly News tonight, McCain questions whether Obama should have given a speech in Berlin before becoming president.

"I would rather speak at a rally or a political gathering any place outside of the country after I am president of the United States," McCain told O'Donnell. "But that's a judgment that Sen. Obama and the American people will make."

However, on June 20, McCain himself gave a speech in Canada -- to the Economic Club of Canada -- in which he applauded NAFTA's successes. An implicit message behind that speech was that Obama had been critical of the trade accord. Also, McCain's trip to Canada was paid for by the campaign.

McCain just keeps giving us the goods. What a fucking idiot.

 

[Mumei]

Also, you're the one defending and excusing Joe Average Nazi citizen, not me, so don't be pointing fingers at me like I'm the one saying something absurd.

No, I was not. I was simply stating that I see no reason to act as though the woman attempting to protect the Jews in her community is as guilty as Ilse Koch. I wasn't excusing "Joe Average Nazi citizen"; I was saying that some people are less guilty than others. Responsibility for the atrocities caused by the Third Reich was not evenly divided, and some people were purely victims - some people were not.

It's complicated and involves a lot of variables, but I gave you a half-assed attempt. Nowhere in there did I excuse anyone.

 

[GenericPseudonym]

McCain Gives Obama Shit For Speaking Outside of The U.S., Forgets About His Speech In Canada, LOL



McCain just keeps giving us the goods. What a fucking idiot.

He's not an idiot, just a politician.

 

[JayDubya]

I was simply stating that I see no reason to act as though the woman attempting to protect the Jews in her community is as guilty as Ilse Koch.

Of course not - that's resisting, how you can, when you can.

 

[Tamanon]

why is that?

You can't bitch so heavily about someone "attacking your service" if you're actively accusing a senator of sedition Basically Wes Clark would be able to be a good attack dog and keep Obama above the fray.

 

[Particle Physicist]

He's not an idiot, just a politician.

exactly. he knows the media will never really call him out on this shit. and he'll keep reaching the average joe.

:.(

 

[siamesedreamer]

Obama senior adviser Robert Gibbs told us in a statement, “During his trip as part of the CODEL to Afghanistan and Iraq, Senator Obama visited the combat support hospital in the Green Zone in Baghdad and had a number of other visits with the troops. For the second part of his trip, the senator wanted to visit the men and women at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center to express his gratitude for their service and sacrifice. The senator decided out of respect for these servicemen and women that it would be inappropriate to make a stop to visit troops at a U.S. military facility as part of a trip funded by the campaign.”

LINK

Wasn't today's speech part of that same trip being funded by the campaign? Or are you able to turn off and on your campaign status? These rules make my head spin.

At any rate, seems as if Obama would rather be a rockstar than visit wounded troops in the hospital...

 

[GenericPseudonym]

exactly. he knows the media will never really call him out on this shit. and he'll keep reaching the average joe.

:.(

Is Canada even really a foreign country?

Spoiler

I'm Canadian

 

[Demigod Mac]

Ideally, governments are designed to serve the people who create them, to conduct and safeguard a well-oiled populace and economy. Businesses are designed to serve themselves above all others and are only willing to make sacrifices insofar as they serve as investments to their future profits. This includes acts of apparent altruism: it's a carefully calculated PR stunt used to bolster brand names.

While there's nothing technically "wrong" with self-interest per se, it sure is a lousy way to run a country.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I realized I fell right into the libertarian trap.

Arguing their points on their terms.

Completely pointless when we disagree on one very basic point. Good government governs well, and business never changes.

 

[Mumei]

Of course not - that's resisting, how you can, when you can.

So, we agree that far. Going a bit further, then, I believe that while the woman who silently watches while the Communists, homosexuals, Jews, Roma, and political dissidents are rounded up is morally inferior to the woman who actively tries to protect her fellow citizens, she is not as guilty as the woman who set half-starved dogs upon prisoners at Auschwitz.

If I have your views correct, you say that the first woman's silent passive tolerance of what is going on around her makes her as guilty as if she had set the dogs herself. Is that accurate?

 

[polyh3dron]

At any rate, seems as if Obama would rather be a rockstar than visit wounded troops in the hospital...

Yep, that's exactly why he's deciding not to visit the troops there, not because he feels it would be inappropriate or anything...

 

[polyh3dron]

Is Canada even really a foreign country?

Spoiler

I'm Canadian

I'm Canadian too (but I live in the US), and yes it is.

 

[GenericPseudonym]

LINK

Wasn't today's speech part of that same trip being funded by the campaign? Or are you able to turn off and on your campaign status? These rules make my head spin.

At any rate, seems as if Obama would rather be a rockstar than visit wounded troops in the hospital...

Because if anything, wounded war veterans deserve to be turned into political props.

 

[JayDubya]

I realized I fell right into the libertarian trap.

Arguing their points on their terms.

Again, it's just me, talking to you, asking you questions and responding in kind.

You're talking about just me, as if I were a plural, as if I weren't in the room, and ignoring all the questions. :lol

Completely pointless when we disagree on one very basic point. Good government governs well, and business never changes.

Good government is small and efficient and imminently accountable with a very limited set of roles.

Meanwhile, you talk about the never changing reliability of people choosing to serve their own self-interest like it's a bad thing.

If I have your views correct, you say that the first woman's silent passive tolerance of what is going on around her makes her as guilty as if she had set the dogs herself. Is that accurate?

For the perpetuation of the overall situation, yes. For the specific act of setting dogs on someone, no.

 

[laserbeam]

Yep, that's exactly why he's deciding not to visit the troops there, not because he feels it would be inappropriate or anything...

A US Congressman visiting wounded troops would have no air of being inapporpriate to it. I would have to question why speaking in front of the German people was more important then that myself.

He is up for Election in the United States of America not Germany.

Because if anything, wounded war veterans deserve to be turned into political props.

Holding rockstar style rallies in Germany is of course by no means a political stunt.

 

[Demigod Mac]

exactly. he knows the media will never really call him out on this shit. and he'll keep reaching the average joe.

:.(

It's in the media's interest to keep this a close horse race as long as possible. Stories of close competition attract greater audience interest. No matter how far ahead Obama goes, they will try their best to make it seem neck and neck right up until November. As a result, they'll blissfully ignore even McCain's most egregious gaffes and errors, while watching Obama like a hawk, ready to pounce on him for even the slightest mistake. Whatever keeps the poll numbers 50/50, they'll do.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Because if anything, wounded war veterans deserve to be turned into political props.

UPDATE: The McCain campaign issued the following comment on Obama’s decision to cancel a visit to the troops at Ramstein Air Base and Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany today:

"Barack Obama is wrong. It is never ‘inappropriate’ to use our men and women in the military as political props," said McCain spokesman Brian Rogers.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Again, it's just me, talking to you, asking you questions and responding in kind.

You're talking about just me, as if I were a plural, as if I weren't in the room, and ignoring all the questions. :lol

Well no offense, but their seems to be a hivemind mentality to all libertarian talking points.

It all comes back to the idea that business fixes problems instead of creating bigger and newer problems.

You may not realize it, but when one libertarian talks they're speaking for all libertarians.

 

[GenericPseudonym]

Holding rockstar style rallies in Germany is of course by no means a political stunt.

There's a difference between using Germany's enthusiasm about Barack Obama to show his foreign policy credentials (he's not hated), than to use wounded war veterans to show the same thing.

 

[JayDubya]

Well no offense, but their seems to be a hivemind mentality to all libertarian talking points.

It all comes back to the idea that business fixes problems instead of creating bigger and newer problems.

You may not realize it, but when one libertarian talks they're speaking for all libertarians.

"No offense, but you, who values individuality above all else, are part of the Borg."

:lol

That's like, "With all due respect, sir, I think you're a fucking asshole."

 

[Particle Physicist]

Holding rockstar style rallies in Germany is of course by no means a political stunt.

what made this rally 'rockstar style' as opposed to other political rallies? the fact that so many people showed up?

i find it so ludicrous that the media and mccain supporters seem to think that popularity is a bad thing. being liked by people is a bad thing. what the fuck?

 

[Demigod Mac]

What happens when competition in the Libertarian free market dries up, and a big fish emerges that gobbles up all the smaller fish? And then punishes consumers with the bare minimum quality of goods and services for maximum profit returns?

"The people will choose something better," they say. Well, guess what. There are no alternatives. They're gone. If any new ones try to start up, they'll be crushed by the owner of the unregulated market.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

"No offense, but you, who values individuality above all else, are part of the Borg."

:lol

That's like, "With all due respect, sir, I think you're a fucking asshole."

Gotta be respectful when calling a set of ideals the bane of humanity.

 

[laserbeam]

what made this rally 'rockstar style' as opposed to other political rallies? the fact that so many people showed up?

i find it so ludicrous that the media and mccain supporters seem to think that popularity is a bad thing. being liked by people is a bad thing. what the fuck?

His whole trip was supposed to be about getting a feel of the situation in Iraq etc. I would think visiting the wounded and gathering their reaction to everything would be more important then a party in Bernlin.

Being Liked and Popular has little bearing on how good a person will be as President. Its stupid Cult of Obama crap where you have to be suddenly so popular with the World to be a Good President.

He is running for President of the United States not Popular Man of the World.

what made this rally 'rockstar style' as opposed to other political rallies? the fact that so many people showed up?

i find it so ludicrous that the media and mccain supporters seem to think that popularity is a bad thing. being liked by people is a bad thing. what the fuck?

Its a Political Rally in a Non US territory. It was pointless and serves no purpose for the Election other then to try and hype the Cult of Obama

 

[JayDubya]

Gotta be respectful when calling a set of ideals the bane of humanity.

Not really; authoritarian collectivism is the bane of humanity, it's the road to slavery and ruin, and people that could read Leviathan or the Prince and bobblehead along are the worst sort of scum.

See? Not hard.

 

[Tamanon]

His whole trip was supposed to be about getting a feel of the situation in Iraq etc. I would think visiting the wounded and gathering their reaction to everything would be mor eimportant then a party in Bernlin.

Being Liked and Popular ha slittle bearing on how good a person will be as President. Its stupid Cult of Obama crap where you have to be suddenly so popular with the World to be a Good President.

The CODEL was about Iraq/Middle East. And during that trip, which was not a campaign event, he did visit the wounded troops. The next phase was a campaign trip, not one as an official Senator.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Not really; authoritarian collectivism is the shitty bain of humanity, it's the road to slavery and ruin, people that could read Leviathan or the Prince and bobblehead along are the worst sort of scum.

See? Not hard.

It really isn't.

To be honest I have no real problem with certain ideals upheld by libertarians. Personal freedoms for one. In no way should government be allowed into your house. As long as your freedoms don't infringe on anothers there should be no limit to what you can do in your home.

I just really can't get behind the idea that business can fix anything. They can't even fix themselves without government intervention.

 

[maynerd]

It really isn't.

To be honest I have no real problem with certain ideals upheld by libertarians. Personal freedoms for one. In no way should government be allowed into your house. As long as your freedoms don't infringe on anothers there should be no limit to what you can do in your home.

I just really can't get behind the idea that business can fix anything. They can't even fix themselves without government intervention.

No kidding the banking industry would have run the entire financial sector into the ground probably destroying the entire US economy if the government didn't step in.

 

[GenericPseudonym]

His whole trip was supposed to be about getting a feel of the situation in Iraq etc. I would think visiting the wounded and gathering their reaction to everything would be more important then a party in Bernlin.

Being Liked and Popular has little bearing on how good a person will be as President. Its stupid Cult of Obama crap where you have to be suddenly so popular with the World to be a Good President.

He is running for President of the United States not Popular Man of the World.

Its a Political Rally in a Non US territory. It was pointless and serves no purpose for the Election other then to try and hype the Cult of Obama

Being unpopular has helped Bush's foreign policy so much! I mean foreign leaders must be so willing to follow a man that is being protested by thousands of people everywhere he goes.

Only in America would being liked by foreigners be a complaint against a politician.

 

[Mumei]

For the perpetuation of the overall situation, yes. For the specific act of setting dogs on someone, no.

If she is guilty of helping to perpetuate the "overall situation," isn't she guilty for what happens due to that overall situation (in this case, allowing a nymphomaniacal sadist an avenue to give legal expression to her most monstrous desires)? If she is guilty of the former, why is she excused from the latter?

 

[Particle Physicist]

His whole trip was supposed to be about getting a feel of the situation in Iraq etc.

thats not all it was about. which is why he is visiting germany, france, england. and AFGHANISTAN!!

Being Liked and Popular has little bearing on how good a person will be as President.

thats true. but people like you have somehow turned it into a negative. the fuck? how can being liked be a negative???

Its stupid Cult of Obama crap where you have to be suddenly so popular with the World to be a Good President.

the "Cult of Obama" crap is bullshit and you know it. he happens to be liked by many young people. young people get excited. there is absolutely nothing cultish about this.. its only a way to negatively spin his popularity.

Its a Political Rally in a Non US territory. It was pointless and serves no purpose for the Election other then to try and hype the Cult of Obama

not the first politician to do such a thing. hell.. mccain had a speach in canada!! i didnt see you cry foul then!

this whole cult of obama crap is ridiculous and demeaning. its almost borderline racist. no way can a black man be so popular! no fucken way!!!

 

[laserbeam]

Being unpopular has helped Bush's foreign policy so much! I mean foreign leaders must be so willing to follow a man that is being protested by thousands of people everywhere he goes.

Only in America would being liked by foreigners be a complaint against a politician.

It has nothing to do with a complaint against a politician. Its the point that it has no bearing whatsoever on the Politicians political ability or ability to govern.

Being the leader of a country is a Popularity Contest for your own country not to try and make the world happy. He could better spend his time addressing the American people on how he intends to fix things instead of nifty one liners like Yes we can and Change!