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PoliGAF Interim Thread of USA General Elections (DAWN OF THE VEEP)

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Gaborn

Member
reilo said:
Thinking Obama is a secret Muslim ready to take over the world and kill all of us infidels, makes you, by default, a fucking moron. I'd be hard pressed to find a neoceon that doesn't believe that and truly dislikes Obama based on his policies.

I agree that portion of the voting public is stupid. I'm NOT sure how responsible they would be in the event of an Obama defeat to suggest the American public "as a whole" is stupid though.

The truly smart neoceons are the ones pulling the strings - the Cheneys, Wolfowitz's, and so forth. And they are by far the most dangerous. Thus, the voting public needs to smarten the hell up and quit enabling them and giving them any inch of power - even if its an abysmal 29%, that's 29% too many.

Do you believe that 29% would ever vote for Obama if he were some other generic D democrat? if not, then how is this any different than claiming that opponents of Democrats are inherently stupid/inferior (believing your opponents inferior is pretty much the definition of elitism)
 

RubxQub

φίλω ἐξεχέγλουτον καί ψευδολόγον οὖκ εἰπόν
reilo said:
Thinking Obama is a secret Muslim ready to take over the world and kill all of us infidels, makes you, by default, a fucking moron. I'd be hard pressed to find a neoceon that doesn't believe that and truly dislikes Obama based on his policies.

The truly smart neoceons are the ones pulling the strings - the Cheneys, Wolfowitz's, and so forth. And they are by far the most dangerous. Thus, the voting public needs to smarten the hell up and quit enabling them and giving them any inch of power - even if its an abysmal 29%, that's 29% too many.
*nods*

There are people who are being fed lies and believing them, and there are people spreading the lies.

People who believe the lies are just as bad as the ones spreading them.
 
Hitokage said:
Yeah, you can be for the taking of unborn life, but guys kissing? That's just wrong.

Yea, pretty damn stupid in my opinion.

Pro-fetal rights here, gays? Live and let live, what does ppl's sexuality have to do with me?
 
Breaking News Alert – RNC attacks hamburgers, moviegoers and ice cream cones! Puppies and kittens feared to be next!

Below are just a few examples of the RNC’s recent attacks on Obama. Apparently the folks at the RNC don’t like eating cheeseburgers or ice cream with their families, and are not among the millions of Americans who enjoyed Batman.

Ah the cheeseburger then, much more subtle.
 
Gaborn said:
That's the thing though. I don't agree with the neocons or the liberals at all, but my default assumption is NOT that they're stupid or uninformed, it's that they're different than me. I don't view political differences as a sign of stupidity, I recognize that people are different and I don't mind that, I just advocate the view I feel is correct. Smiles and Cries sounds like anyone that disagrees with him is assumed to be stupid.

Reilo - thank you for your insightful response to my pointing out you clearly did not read his post.


you could not be more wrong I do not think that people who do not agree with me are stupid. I call people who consume lies as facts stupid. What's so hard to understand? I do not see myself as an elitist I think I am pretty challenged in my own thinking thus I work hard at weeding out facts from fiction if I want to advance my own ignorance to a decent level

what is so bad about having someone wiser or better than you as a leader... calling Obama an elitist what should we want someone who is just as weakminded as ourselves to lead?

please look at McCain and try to sell me on him with the best available wisdom that you have. I look at that man and see something that just does not amuse me... It takes a stupid person like me to understand, you know what I want better for myself, I want better for my family... and yes I do not want the rest of the world laughing at my country I want to put my head up and be proud for a change.

Stupid people will vote for Obama too... I am proud that I am part of that level of ignorance
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
choo chooooooo

train1.jpg


the Gaborn Derail Express is always on time.

Gaborn: if you believe that superiority complexes are exclusive to liberals you really need some perspective.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Gaborn said:
I agree that portion of the voting public is stupid. I'm NOT sure how responsible they would be in the event of an Obama defeat to suggest the American public "as a whole" is stupid though.



Do you believe that 29% would ever vote for Obama if he were some other generic D democrat? if not, then how is this any different than claiming that opponents of Democrats are inherently stupid/inferior (believing your opponents inferior is pretty much the definition of elitism)

They would just find another reason to hate that generic democrat: See Kerry being swift boated. They ate that shit up like candy. Which, makes them stupid, again.

Stop with the elitist bullshit. Please, I beg of you. If believing my candidate will be smarter and better at the job he is applying for makes me elitist, then so be it.

Elitism is only a problem when you let it take over your ego and constantly refuse to listen to the advice of the opposition because you believe they are inherently wrong without researching their position.

Doesn't that, by definition, make the current administration and every other GOPer that refuses to cross party lines because of some inherent belief that they are better/right without any logical foundation make them elitist?

I've listened to John McCain. I've read his policies. Am I elitist because I truly believe Obama is the superior candidate?

And I never proclaimed that being on the opposition makes you stupid - believing in something that is factual wrong does, however. I've yet to find a single neocon that that bases his opinion and worldview on factual data.
 

Gaborn

Member
Smiles and Cries said:
you could not be more wrong I do not think that people who do not agree with me are stupid. I call people who consume lies as facts stupid. What's so hard to understand? I do not see myself as an elitist I think I am pretty challenged in my own thinking thus I work hard at weeding out facts from fiction if I want to advance my own ignorance to a decent level

what is so bad about having someone wiser or better than you as a leader... calling Obama an elitist what should we want someone who is just as weakminded as ourselves to lead?

please look at McCain and try to sell me on him with the best available wisdom that you have.
I look at that man and see something that just does not amuse me... It takes a stupid person like me to understand, you know what I want better for myself, I want better for my family... and yes I do not want the rest of the world laughing at my country I want to put my head up and be proud for a change.

Stupid people will vote for Obama too... I am proud that I am part of that level of ignorance

I'm not intending on voting for McCain so I have no intention to do that much. I will say though that historically people tend to look closer at war heros and his legislative experience probably helps him some in people's perception, but there are too many ideological disagreements between me and him.

Reilo - Have you ever believed a person other than the Democratic candidate was smarter when they were running for President?

Scorcho - I never said that superiority complexes were exclusive to liberals. However, I did point out that conservatives are able to point out perceived superiority because of posts like Smiles and Cries made. Are there examples of conservative superiority? I'm sure there are, but liberals haven't used that narrative.
 
"Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself."

Now, back to political happenings.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Gaborn said:
Reilo - Have you ever believed a person other than the Democratic candidate was smarter when they were running for President?

Yes.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Religious fanaticism aside, I liked Huckabee's statement that we really need to reevaluate jailing people we're mad at versus people we're actually scared of. I also like George H. W. Bush far more than I do his son or Reagan. Nixon, racist cheating bastard that he was, was quite good at executing specific policy aims in an actual policy-making framework. That alone makes me say without hesitation that George W. Bush is a worse president than Nixon.
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Gaborn said:
Are there examples of conservative superiority? I'm sure there are, but liberals haven't used that narrative.
you're right, as libs/progressives hear another round of 'Left trying to destroy the West' and 'Liberals hate America' from millionaire conservative pundits we're all just actin' elitist and shit.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Once again Gaborn makes me doubt he reads anything other than libertarian tracts.

...or maybe he was just asleep for all of the 90s.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Gaborn said:
Fair enough.

This might shock you coming from me, but Goldwater was definitely smarter than LBJ - eventhough I disagreed with Barry on his stances of the New Deal, but I could at least understand where he was coming from.

I believe too little government regulation will lead to more disasters such as Enron, the current housing market, and the current bank foreclosures, while too much oversight will lead to another 8 years of GWB policies. I think there is a suitable middle ground to be had. Politics shouldn't be about "all or nothing" policies.

Hitokage said:
Religious fanaticism aside, I liked Huckabee's statement that we really need to reevaluate jailing people we're mad at versus people we're actually scared of. I also like George H. W. Bush far more than I do his son or Reagan. Nixon, racist cheating bastard that he was, was quite good at executing specific policy aims in an actual policy making framework. That alone makes me say without hesitation that George W. Bush is a worse president than Nixon.

Agreed. Nixon's downfall was his ego.

And if you need examples of elitist conservatives [or rather, republicans, as conservatives is a bad term to use for them], just look at our current administration!
 

hokahey

Member
RubxQub said:
Awesome analysis of what to expect out of the polls during and after the conventions by the 538 guys.

Read this if you don't want to look like a fool by overreacting to polling data presented during or slightly after each convention!

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/08/what-convention-bounce-looks-like.html

You must use 538 for all of your polling data, otherwise you'll squirt yourself over false hopes or shattered dreams.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry.html

Bush often trailed Kerry until the conventions, at which point he began to lead consistently right up until election day.
 

Gaborn

Member
Hitokage said:
Once again Gaborn makes me doubt he reads anything other than libertarian tracts.

...or maybe he was just asleep for all of the 90s.

Howso? I responded to one post that generalized that americans "as a whole" are stupid (but wouldn't be if they voted for Obama) and that has been cleared up now. Anything else is people reading too much into what I said.

Reilo - I really do respect you for your consistency and your willingness to explore the other side, I know we have very different political views but I respect your openness, I think you're much more willing to not be ideological than most.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Gaborn said:
Howso? I responded to one post that generalized that americans "as a whole" are stupid (but wouldn't be if they voted for Obama) and that has been cleared up now. Anything else is people reading too much into what I said.

Reilo - I really do respect you for your consistency and your willingness to explore the other side, I know we have very different political views but I respect your openness, I think you're much more willing to not be ideological than most.
Regarding the lack of conservative elitism.
 

Agent Icebeezy

Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Looks like some Iraqis are going to surge back

AP: Iran Training Iraqi Hit Squads To Assassinate US, Iraqi Troops

WASHINGTON — Iraqi Shiite assassination teams are being trained in at least four locations in Iran by Tehran's elite Quds force and Lebanese Hezbollah and are planning to return to Iraq in the next few months to kill specific Iraqi officials as well as U.S. and Iraqi troops, according to intelligence gleaned from captured militia fighters and other sources in Iraq.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/15/ap-iran-training-iraqi-hi_n_119104.html
 

Gaborn

Member
Hitokage said:
Regarding the lack of conservative elitism.

Gaborn said:
Scorcho - I never said that superiority complexes were exclusive to liberals. However, I did point out that conservatives are able to point out perceived superiority because of posts like Smiles and Cries made. Are there examples of conservative superiority? I'm sure there are, but liberals haven't used that narrative.

You're right, I said that no conservatives are elitist :lol :lol. In actuality if you're still having trouble with this, I said that "elitism" is a narrative used by conservatives, and posts like Smiles and Cries are what opens that door. That does not suggest that conservatives are not at times elitist, but so far I haven't seen that label attach as often successfully to conservatives, and my interpretation is that liberals haven't been as effective at using it.
 
Gaborn said:
You're right, I said that no conservatives are elitist :lol :lol. In actuality if you're still having trouble with this, I said that "elitism" is a narrative used by conservatives, and posts like Smiles and Cries are what opens that door. That does not suggest that conservatives are not at times elitist, but so far I haven't seen that label attach as often successfully to conservatives, and my interpretation is that liberals haven't been as effective at using it.
everyone got my post but you. so I just ran with you on your tracks for little bit :p

I still don't care what club you belong to as a whole America is looking pretty stupid right now :D
 

Gaborn

Member
Smiles and Cries said:
everyone got my post but you. so I just ran with you on your tracks for little bit :p

I still don't care what club you belong to as a whole America is looking pretty stupid right now :D

I think Maximum360 pretty much had the same interpretation I did actually.
 

Diablos

Member
scorcho said:
put down the crazy pills.
What makes me roll my eyes would be the fact that Hillary is getting her own day, Bill is getting his own day, they're doing their own videos (Hillary is, at least), they can remind everyone of how many states Obama didn't get by having a roll call (one that is completely unnecessary), then Obama finally gets to talk for like an hour on the last day.

Obama is only doing this because he knows if he doesn't, he risks upsetting Hillary supporters even more. But the ridiculous thing is this is just going to remind everyone of the bloodbath that was Clinton vs. Obama in the primaries. So dumb. They should not be mentioning anything about the primaries.

Forget the symbolic roll call, just get on with it and talk about how to win in November. Looking back on that time in any way is never a good thing.
 
But for anyone that missed it:

It has been raised in various discussions on the topic of the 2008 presidential elections: just how important is a candidate's belief in the theory of evolution? Should the people even care?

I say yes.

It shows that one has a respect for the sciences and scientists. It shows that one has an understanding of the scientific method and how a large majority of respected scientists have arrived at the conclusion that evolution is an established and accepted scientific theory. It shows that one can objectively evaluate the data and evidence that has been produced that show evolution to be undeniable.

This is the information age. We are in an era defined by the technological and scientific advancements that have been made over the last century. Antibiotics, the personal automobile, nuclear energy, peering into the depths of space via the Hubble telescope, the Internet...all of these discoveries, inventions, and conveniences are the direct result of science, not faith. Religious faith would have one believe that prayer alone will overcome a serious infection. Religious faith would have had us believe that the Earth is the center of the universe. Religious faith would have had us believe that the Earth is flat. Religious faith would have us believe that "because that's how God designed it" is an acceptable answer to anything we do not yet understand. Faith is a cop-out of an answer.

When our scientists and engineers are shunned (e.g. re:stem cell research), when peer reviewed results are discarded or deemed irrelevant (e.g. evidence of human driven global warming), when generally accepted scientific theories are questioned (e.g. evolution), then you know that the leadership of this country has failed to put a premium on knowledge and grant respect to those in our society who seek to enrich the collective knowledge of the Humankind.

If one cannot fathom evolution, even given the consensus of the world's leading scientists, If one cannot accept evolution, even given the large amount of evidence (on a micro and macro level), if one cannot objectively make a decision based on unbiased data without the interference of personal faith/beliefs, then such a person is not of the mental capacity and certainly not of sound judgment to lead the United States of America.

You know, I found it quite humorous to hear these candidates babble on about the manufacturing sector and how we simply cannot compete with China, Mexico, and other countries where low cost labor is abundant.

I ask, why the **** would we even want to compete with them on such a level? The promise of the future lies not in manufacturing, but in knowledge, information, and the ability to innovate. These are all things that Americans excel at. These are things that science excels at. We should be glad to have this opportunity to continue our transition from an industrial economy to a knowledge and service driven economy.

Instead, the leadership has taken us backwards.

As energy costs soar in the next century due to increases in demand and decreases in the raw resources, alternative energy sources will be the only option. Instead of embracing this ideal, the US is letting the opportunity to innovate and lead slip away.

Instead of embracing the promise of stem cell research, our leadership views such science with disdain because of the uneducated masses that support them. Instead of taking a leadership position in this vital field, we force some of our brightest scientists in this field overseas to countries like China, Singapore, Japan, and various European nations where such pursuits are embraced because of the financial and medical promises of such research.

As we move forward, it will be the global alliances and friendships that we form that will help drive our markets and help drive demand for our knowledge and unique capability to innovate. And yet, instead of reaching out to allies and trying to mend torn relationships, instead of diplomatic solutions and dicussion, instead of dialogue and sound governance, we seek to take a bully like stand on the global stage with strong talk like a young child throwing a temper tantrum (or an e-thug).

To drive us towards a better, more prosperous future, we need leadership that will respect science. We need leadership that will respect dialogue. We need leadership that will look at subjects and look at the data objectively and not let personal faith muddy the waters of clear and sound judgement. It is innovation in the sciences and engineering that has made America the country that it is today. It is innovation in these areas that hold the greatest potential to drive us forward tomorrow and we need leaders that understand the importance of leading a global economy driven by information, technology, innovation, and science.

Original
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
It's at least comforting to know that Barrack himself would disavow 90% of the elitist bullshit in this thread. If not 95%. I'm 96% certain of it, with a 3/4% margin of error.

By the way, that evolution poll is outdated. It's above 40% now for the US. And I reject the notion that it ties somehow with a person's actual intelligence level. To me, it has more to do with cultural/religious upbringing and/or a general disinterest in science rather than an actual lack of intelligence.

so much wisdom flowing through that... Godammit! I love America!

And for that matter, neither is a gallup daily tracking poll. For goodness sakes, how stupid is that line of thinking?
 

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
Diablos said:
What makes me roll my eyes would be the fact that Hillary is getting her own day, Bill is getting his own day, they're doing their own videos (Hillary is, at least), they can remind everyone of how many states Obama didn't get by having a roll call (one that is completely unnecessary), then Obama finally gets to talk for like an hour on the last day.

Obama is only doing this because he knows if he doesn't, he risks upsetting Hillary supporters even more. But the ridiculous thing is this is just going to remind everyone of the bloodbath that was Clinton vs. Obama in the primaries. So dumb. They should not be mentioning anything about the primaries.

Forget the symbolic roll call, just get on with it and talk about how to win in November. Looking back on that time in any way is never a good thing.

Hillary got almost as many delegates as Obama. So why shouldn't she get 49% of the convention to herself? This is really nothing to worry about, just a standard political procedure
 
It has been raised in various discussions on the topic of the 2008 presidential elections: just how important is a candidate's belief in the theory of evolution? Should the people even care?

I say yes.

Too bad 40% of our country isn't enough to elect a President.
 
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