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[Chrono]

How many of the people saying they're voting for McCain and not Obama because of experience are actually honest? Can we safely say this is just code for not wanting a black president?

I mean really, I've been thinking about this, and when somebody says experience, I'm now having this image of a car heading towards a cliff and the passengers arguing between one who wants to change the direction away from the cliff and back onto a safe road and another who wants to stay the course because he sees a rainbow road flowing out of the cliff and into the heavens. He thinks he's better qualified than the others to decide on which path to take because he held a license for more years than the other passengers, which is only thanks to his age.

This is not a freakin' plumbing job, it's the presidency of the most powerful and influential country in the world. Contenders should argue over their vision and voters choose which direction they want to take their country into. Those voters should look into the accomplishments of the candidates and their character and intellect and see if all of these things are consistent with their vision.

Yeah this is just another post complaining about ignorant voters, but I wanted to vent a little.

Dammit just pick a VP already, this is driving me crazy. And make it Gore please.

while I obviously appreciate his words (being a nonbeliever and all), I've always found it interesting how if one really thinks religion shouldn't be a primary influence on policy, and one readily acknowledges that Christians can't even agree on what Christianity is, and one acknowledges the largely out of date "rules" in God's word, and so on and so forth...

...at what point does Christianity ever stop being "Christianity"? Is it even possible? And if Jesus and god were so real and obvious that people felt compelled to worship them, wouldn't we want jesus and God to influence public policy? It seems weird that some people think their religion and divine being can have the most profound positive effect on people's lives...and then turn around and say it shouldn't be used as a primary reason for policy. If god is so great and awesome, wouldn't we want his advice when it comes to running the country?

And if Christianity is so open that wildly different interpretations of it can still fall under one banner, does that mean that I could call myself a Christian? Sure, I don't think there's literally some guy that created the universe and died for my sins, but I can get behind the metaphorical aspects of it, and the community-based reasons for the religion, and I think Jesus said some nice things. So am I a Christian now? This will be useful for me if I ever decide to go into politics. Christian atheists ftw?

Like I said, I'm obviously glad that a presidential candidate recognizes and respects the diversity of viewpoints on the whole religious issue, but it just seems weird that he almost has to discount large parts of his own religion and its history to do so, as if there's some subconscious notion that it isn't really real.

Spoiler

I'm not trying to make a "secret manchurian atheist candidate" argument. Honest!

This isn't an Obama thing necessarily, but just sort of reminds me of "liberal Christianity" in general.

I guess this is why some religions simultaneously fascinates and confuses the shit out of me, lol

There's nothing confusing really. People just twist and warp whatever they want to their liking to keep their minds at rest. It's natural, and pretty fucking stupid.

And I really do have some doubt regarding Obama's Christianity. I really think he's an atheist. The guy is just too smart. Didn't he only 'find' faith as an adult? There's no going back after you've seen the light of rational thinking, no matter how much you want to. It really seems to me that he did it for political reasons, and I honestly don't mind it. People are dumb, but Obama still wants to help them, even if it means he has to become like them. Very noble.

And yes I realize the irony of the preceding two paragraphs.

 

[Chrono]

Edit: sorry double post. >_>;

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Obama's astrological chart

Detailed explanation here: http://www.democraticunderground.co...w_mesg&forum=245&topic_id=70880&mesg_id=70880

 

[sangreal]

I can't wait to find out what tomorrow's McGaffe will be

 

[StoOgE]

Wisconsin and Iowa officially out of the "swing state" category and offically in the Obamamania category.. I LOVE IT.

LOVE IT.

 

[The Librarian]

Wisconsin and Iowa officially out of the "swing state" category and offically in the Obamamania category.. I LOVE IT.

LOVE IT.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

How many of you make more than $2.8 million a year?

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/12/1136892.aspx

KAUKAUNA, WI -- Obama used humor at a town hall on tax policy today to paint his Republican rival as out of touch with middle-class concerns and as a flip-flopper on the matter of tax cuts.


“I want everybody to listen to this carefully: The tax cut that John McCain has proposed, nearly a quarter, nearly one-fourth of his tax cuts go to households making more than $2.8 million every year,”
he said as murmurs of “Ohhh” and “Whoa” rippled through the crowd.

“Now how many people here make more than $2.8 million a year? If you’re there, I want to know, because we’re still doing fundraising,”
he asked, sparking laughter and applause.

“So think about that: A quarter of his tax cut will go to people who are not represented in this entire auditorium -- people making more than $2.8 million. That’s where John McCain wants to focus his tax relief.”

Very dramatic and effective way of making his point.

 

[StoOgE]

How many of you make more than $2.8 million a year?

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/12/1136892.aspx

Very dramatic and effective way of making his point.

For a week straight the Obama camp has kept the hammer down on McCain. This is reminding me of the way Kerry was allways on the defensive, only with the roles reversed.

 

[adamsappel]

Hope Obama gets the fake .org site taken down soon.

That's a huge, stupid, indefensible, rookie error not to register .org, .net, etc in the first place.

 

[gcubed]

I don't think TV deals preclude people from politics--it's kind of like how sports commentators often jump ship to coach teams when they're offered jobs. Also, Lou Dobbs might run for governor in New Jersey.

once they make the decision to run, they cant appear anymore. If Huckabee got picked, he would have to back out of his contract. I remember that from good ole Eddie Rendell. He does post game Eagles shows during the football season on CSN, when he was running for re-election he couldnt be on, i forgot the actual rule, something about equal representation in the media or some shit like that

 

[The Librarian]

How many of you make more than $2.8 million a year?

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/12/1136892.aspx

Very dramatic and effective way of making his point.

I <3 Obama so much.

 

[Stinkles]

How many of you make more than $2.8 million a year?

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/12/1136892.aspx

Very dramatic and effective way of making his point.

Those people making more than 2.8 million a year would immediately plow their tax relief back into the US economy by purchasing domestic goods (cars, clothes, electronics) and hiring college educated US citizens to work for them, for a fair wage with health insurance. Thus propelling the economy to new heights. That is how it works. These are facts that I heard on the radio and also from 19 year-old gaf-ers.

 

[StoOgE]

That's a huge, stupid, indefensible, rookie error not to register .org, .net, etc in the first place.

Its down allready, now its porn.

 

[demon]

Wisconsin and Iowa officially out of the "swing state" category and offically in the Obamamania category.. I LOVE IT.

LOVE IT.

wait. what, where? good news if it's true.

 

[StoOgE]

Those people making more than 2.8 million a year would immediately plow their tax relief back into the US economy by purchasing domestic goods (cars, clothes, electronics) and hiring college educated US citizens to work for them, for a fair wage with health insurance. Thus propelling the economy to new heights. That is how it works. These are facts that I heard on the radio and also from 19 year-old gaf-ers.

Actually, people that make that much money dont have to buy american made crap.

 

[StoOgE]

wait. what, where? good news if it's true.

He is up 13 points in Wisconsin compared to a 4 point lead a month ago)

He is up 17 points in Iowa compared to 2 points a month ago.

He is now down 2 points in NC. NORTH CAROLINA. N O R T H C A R O L I N A.

whatdog.gif

 

[Touchdown]

keith addressing fox's "baby's mama"

 

[FitzOfRage]

Its down allready, now its porn.

Well looks like the porn is temporary...

UPDATE*Oh and if you're wondering why I put the porn links it's because of the people that got all angry about the site and started searching on me. Whois and google. I don't hide anything and the way they try and demonize me for exercising my 1st amendment rights. This site will be porn free in a day or so when I get the clean blog up and then you can judge me then. I am very protective of my rights and love my country. So come back then if you want to debate on anything i'm always up for the challenge. Thank you for all that have written me I'll be answering my emails later gotta go have dinner with my family.

That struck me as kind of funny given the previous posts here...

 

[Stinkles]

Actually, people that make that much money dont have to buy american made crap.

I was maka da joke.

Rich people keep their money offshore, drive European luxury cars, wear Prada and hire illegal immigrants for less than minimum wage to do all their hard work for them.

 

[ViperVisor]

Keith is owning McCain on his substance on Iraq over the years, varying types of crap, while CNN and Bill-O flop around in worthless pig shit.

 

[DrForester]

How many of you make more than $2.8 million a year?

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/12/1136892.aspx

Very dramatic and effective way of making his point.

I have a question about the whole tax thing, because I honestly don't know much about it. when they say the rich people get a bigger break are they using BS math like they do with Oil company profits (looking at the profits and ignoring the profit margin) or do the rich pay a lower tax percentage under the McCain plan?

 

[Tamanon]

I have a question about the whole tax thing, because I honestly don't know much about it. when they say the rich people get a bigger break are they using BS math like they do with Oil company profits (looking at the profits and ignoring the profit margin) or do the rich pay a lower tax percentage under the McCain plan?

The rich pay a lower tax rate under the McCain plan than the Obama plan, although under both plans they pay a higher rate than the poor/middle class.

 

[thekad]

Keith O.'s special comment was actually pretty good and heartfelt this time. Even PoliGAF would like it.

 

[Tamanon]

Yeah it wasn't really a partisan one, it was more an anti-war one. Started off kinda slow, but wasn't as preachy as his normal ones.

:lol Brad Blankman on Abrams..."John McCain isn't behind in the polls!"

 

[Tamanon]

:lol :lol :lol Pat Buchanan

"They're going to use him being exotic!"
"What does exotic mean? Does it mean he's black?"

Racist Pat returns!

 

[Stinkles]

I have a question about the whole tax thing, because I honestly don't know much about it. when they say the rich people get a bigger break are they using BS math like they do with Oil company profits (looking at the profits and ignoring the profit margin) or do the rich pay a lower tax percentage under the McCain plan?

Rich people take advantage of various legal tax "shelters" from stuff as simple as a Roth IRA available to everyone, to complex schemes requiring property investments, incorporation and so on. A wealthy person pays a smaller percentage of his or her income than you do, if they are smart.

Under the McCain plan, they will appear to pay more than you or I, but in reality pay less if they have a halfway decent accountant. But that's not McCain, that's Capitalism.

I fully intend to take advantage of all legal tax relief available to me, but I do not want a useless cash bribe that damages the economy.

 

[soul creator]

:lol :lol :lol Pat Buchanan

"They're going to use him being exotic!"
"What does exotic mean? Does it mean he's black?"

Racist Pat returns!

This is how I feel when I watch Pat sometimes

 

[avaya]

:lol :lol :lol Pat Buchanan

"They're going to use him being exotic!"
"What does exotic mean? Does it mean he's black?"

Racist Pat returns!

:lol

 

[soul creator]

dear god, Pat and this Brad dude are going crazy over the recent supreme court decision :lol

I think it's sad that upholding the constitution will "rally the republican base" against it.

 

[Suikoguy]

Keith O.'s special comment was actually pretty good and heartfelt this time. Even PoliGAF would like it.

I think it was the more even tone, less screaming and anger.
More trying to get his point across.

 

[Lv99 Slacker]

"But here's what happened - the exotic kid didn't vet the vetter" - Pat (on Verdict with Dan Abrams) :lol

 

[Cyan]

Rich people take advantage of various legal tax "shelters" from stuff as simple as a Roth IRA available to everyone, to complex schemes requiring property investments, incorporation and so on. A wealthy person pays a smaller percentage of his or her income than you do, if they are smart.

Under the McCain plan, they will appear to pay more than you or I, but in reality pay less if they have a halfway decent accountant. But that's not McCain, that's Capitalism.

I fully intend to take advantage of all legal tax relief available to me, but I do not want a useless cash bribe that damages the economy.

Rich people can't use Roth IRAs.

And I'm pretty sure the main reason for the percentage disparity isn't wacky tax shelters, but simply the difference between the LTCG tax rate and the ordinary income tax rate. I think the former resets to pre-Bush rates in 2010. Could be wrong about the year.

How many of the people saying they're voting for McCain and not Obama because of experience are actually honest? Can we safely say this is just code for not wanting a black president?

Nah, that's what "secret Muslim" is for. Experience is a legitimate concern.

 

[Xeke]

dear god, Pat and this Brad dude are going crazy over the recent supreme court decision :lol

I think it's sad that upholding the constitution will "rally the republican base" against it.

That isn't fair at all. FDR shit all over the constitution.

 

[KilledByBill]

Rich people take advantage of various legal tax "shelters" from stuff as simple as a Roth IRA available to everyone, to complex schemes requiring property investments, incorporation and so on. A wealthy person pays a smaller percentage of his or her income than you do, if they are smart.

Look no further than Warren Buffet, the richest man in the world. He noted the injustice that his secretary and cleaning lady paid a higher percentage of their income as taxes.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/money/tax/article1996735.ece

He supports Obama and his economic/tax plans.

 

[Cyan]

Look no further than Warren Buffet, the richest man in the world. He noted the injustice that his secretary and cleaning lady paid a higher percentage of their income as taxes.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/money/tax/article1996735.ece

He supports Obama and his economic/tax plans.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about:

Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes

No exotic tax shelters needed, because he makes most of his money on capital gains.

Buffet's a good guy; I'm not surprised to see him say that.

 

[DEO3]

Wisconsin and Iowa officially out of the "swing state" category and offically in the Obamamania category.. I LOVE IT.

LOVE IT.

He is up 13 points in Wisconsin compared to a 4 point lead a month ago)

He is up 17 points in Iowa compared to 2 points a month ago.

He is now down 2 points in NC. NORTH CAROLINA. N O R T H C A R O L I N A.

whatdog.gif

Where's this coming from? Thanks.

Edit: n/m - dailykos.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Where's this coming from? Thanks.

Mostly Rasmussen. Pollster has them incorporated.

http://www.pollster.com/08-IA-Pres-GE-MvO.php

U of W: http://www.pollster.com/08-WI-Pres-GE-MvO.php

http://www.pollster.com/08-NC-Pres-GE-MvO.php

 

[Stinkles]

Rich people can't use Roth IRAs..

I used Roth as an example of the kind of tax free investment "normal" people can make - it being that there are dozens of similar schemes rich people can automatically defer to, before the kind of organized chicanery of offshore incorporation and so on.

And as another poster noted, the truly rich don't get the bulk of their income from salary - they get it from capital gains and other sources - salary - the working person's income is among the most heavily taxed money in America.

Now, I don't mind someone like Buffet paying less percentage than I do, when it amounts to literally billions of dollars anyway - in effect, he's a far more productive citizen than I am. But I do object to legal schemes making it possible for companies and entities to pay NO tax at all, but get all the benefits of incorporation.

And there are plenty of JayDubya-style "ideal" citizens like Bill Gates, who give away billions of dollars in charity over and above what they need to do for tax logic. But they are the exception. Silent billionaires enjoy gilded lifestyles subsidized by you and I and the leaders we elect - and pay zero tax.

 

[StoOgE]

You dont even have to get fancy, if you throw your money into an annuity of or insurance product of some sort the money grows tax defered until you touch it. Biggest crock of shit ever.

You can also get fancy with the gift transfer and trusts to "gift" money to people who never touch it, then you give enough of that to charity and you never pay a dime.

Back when I was a financial advisor (before i went into compliance) I had a client who made over 5 million a year. Between his estate attorney and CPA they had the guy paying about 8% a year in taxes. The AMT kicked in on him (which I dont understand) but he got out of most of that too.

The main thing we have to keep is the estate tax. The fact that there is no estate tax in 2010 is criminal. I dont see why you should have any right to inherit money tax free. Something I agree with Warren Buffet on. Your kids didnt earn a dime of it, why should they get it without some of it going back to the community you made it from. Society helped make you what you are, you owe something back to it.

 

[Cyan]

I used Roth as an example of the kind of tax free investment "normal" people can make - it being that there are dozens of similar schemes rich people can automatically defer to, before the kind of organized chicanery of offshore incorporation and so on.

Ok. I'm not sure what kind of schemes you're referring to, but I'm not really familiar with that end of the tax code.

And as another poster noted, the truly rich don't get the bulk of their income from salary - they get it from capital gains and other sources - salary - the working person's income is among the most heavily taxed money in America.

Another poster? You mean me?

Now, I don't mind someone like Buffet paying less percentage than I do, when it amounts to literally billions of dollars anyway - in effect, he's a far more productive citizen than I am. But I do object to legal schemes making it possible for companies and entities to pay NO tax at all, but get all the benefits of incorporation.

Hmm, agreed, although it'd be great to have more details about this. We've seen plenty of statistics and charts, but case studies--the how and why of a company paying no tax--would be really interesting. Of course, those probably aren't all that easy to find.

And there are plenty of JayDubya-style "ideal" citizens like Bill Gates, who give away billions of dollars in charity over and above what they need to do for tax logic. But they are the exception. Silent billionaires enjoy gilded lifestyles subsidized by you and I and the leaders we elect - and pay zero tax.

That would be really terrible, if it were true. Zero tax? Subsidized by regular taxpayers? Giving nothing to charity? I don't think that's remotely the case.

The main thing we have to keep is the estate tax. The fact that there is no estate tax in 2010 is criminal. I dont see why you should have any right to inherit money tax free. Something I agree with Warren Buffet on. Your kids didnt earn a dime of it, why should they get it without some of it going back to the community you made it from. Society helped make you what you are, you owe something back to it.

I totally agree. I certainly don't plan to leave anything to my (potential future) children above and beyond what would be taxable.

 

[Stinkles]

Ok. I'm not sure what kind of schemes you're referring to, but I'm not really familiar with that end of the tax code.


Another poster? You mean me?


Hmm, agreed, although it'd be great to have more details about this. We've seen plenty of statistics and charts, but case studies--the how and why of a company paying no tax--would be really interesting. Of course, those probably aren't all that easy to find.


That would be really terrible, if it were true. Zero tax? Subsidized by regular taxpayers? Giving nothing to charity? I don't think that's remotely the case.


I totally agree. I certainly don't plan to leave anything to my (potential future) children above and beyond what would be taxable.

Corporations

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/ns09222004.cfm

Individuals

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/03/business/03tax.html

Some of these are out of date, but you get the idea.

 

[Trakdown]

How many of you make more than $2.8 million a year?

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/12/1136892.aspx

Very dramatic and effective way of making his point.

I swear, Barack Obama is a Jedi. Only explanation. It's like he waved his hand in a semi-circle and said "this is not the tax cut you're looking for."

 

[StoOgE]

Cyan, there are lots of creative ways around paying income taxes. If you incorporate off shore in a tax haven, you can do just about whatever the fuck you want.

Even short of that, there are pleny of ways to get around it. Most involve setting up a trust and giving some small amount of the money to a charity to avoid taxation, but the amount gifted to the charity is pennies on the dollar compared to the taxes owed.

In fact, one specific kind of trust a grut, (grantor remainder unit trust) you essentially shove a big chunk of money into a trust, then you let it accumulate earnings.. a part of which go to a charity. As soon as you hit the amount of money you need to give to the charity, you flip a switch and voila, the money (and most of the earnings) are yours scott free.

There are other similar ones you can use (GRAT, GRIT, CRUT and CRAT) as well as setting up an A-B-C bypass trust to pay less estate taxes.. set up an ILIT trust (you gift the trust money, it buys life insurance on you, you die, the trust essentially pays your estate taxes with the insurance proceeds.. no estate taxes. hoooray)

the whole thing is a mess.

 

[User 10639]

That isn't fair at all. FDR shit all over the constitution.

I'm pretty sure that Japanese internment isn't used as a way to "rally the base" for Democrats.

 

[Cyan]

Corporations

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/ns09222004.cfm

Individuals

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/03/business/03tax.html

Some of these are out of date, but you get the idea.

I'll have to take a closer look at the corporation one, but a quick glance shows a lot of accelerated depreciation and general tax credits. The ones that would really bother me are offshore tax sheltering, which doesn't seem nearly as common.

Differences between GAAP and the tax code are often problematic. The stock-option issue does seem particularly egregious.

As for the individuals:

The I.R.S. report said that "the most important item in eliminating tax" was taking income in the form of tax-exempt interest on state and municipal bonds.

Nearly two-thirds of those who lived tax-free reported income from such bonds.

The four largest items that reduced income subject to taxation, the I.R.S. said, were miscellaneous deductions; interest paid on borrowing to finance investments; various tax credits; and large medical bills, which can be deducted once they exceed either 7.5 percent or 10 percent of adjusted gross income, depending on the taxpayer's circumstances.

These hardly sound like "silent billionaires." Billionaires don't settle for the meager returns of muni bonds.

Cyan, there are lots of creative ways around paying income taxes. If you incorporate off shore in a tax haven, you can do just about whatever the fuck you want.

Even short of that, there are pleny of ways to get around it. Most involve setting up a trust and giving some small amount of the money to a charity to avoid taxation, but the amount gifted to the charity is pennies on the dollar compared to the taxes owed.

In fact, one specific kind of trust a grut, (grantor remainder unit trust) you essentially shove a big chunk of money into a trust, then you let it accumulate earnings.. a part of which go to a charity. As soon as you hit the amount of money you need to give to the charity, you flip a switch and voila, the money (and most of the earnings) are yours scott free.

Wow! That's messed up. I've never heard of those before.

I clearly still have a lot to learn about the world of finance.

 

[StoOgE]

I'll have to take a closer look at the corporation one, but a quick glance shows a lot of accelerated depreciation and general tax credits. The ones that would really bother me are offshore tax sheltering, which doesn't seem nearly as common.

Differences between GAAP and the tax code are often problematic. The stock-option issue does seem particularly egregious.

As for the individuals:

These hardly sound like "silent billionaires." Billionaires don't settle for the meager returns of muni bonds.

If you are in a high enough tax braket the tax equivellent yields on some riskier muni bonds can be REALLY high. There are some muni bond funds out there that have a decent rate of return. You can also buy into something called a GREIT (a government owned real estate investment trust) which is a illiquid investment that is going to get a much higher rate of return and still be tax free.

 

[Cyan]

If you are in a high enough tax braket the tax equivellent yields on some riskier muni bonds can be REALLY high. There are some muni bond funds out there that have a decent rate of return. You can also buy into something called a GREIT (a government owned real estate investment trust) which is a illiquid investment that is going to get a much higher rate of return and still be tax free.

Ok. I'm totally basing this on anecdotal evidence, but I still think that the very wealthy would be more concerned about the risk due to lack of diversification than about having to pay taxes. Especially if we're talking about riskier muni bonds.

 

[Xeke]

I'm pretty sure that Japanese internment isn't used as a way to "rally the base" for Democrats.

But the New Deal is.

 

[StoOgE]

But the New Deal is.

yeah, and the New Deal economy was great for America, but it had nothing to do with the internment. Most americans and democrats now realize and are shamed by that blight in our history. I know I am, and I think FDR was a great president. It doesnt mean I agree with everything he did.

But right now people are defending the suspension of habeus corpus. Thats like defending the interment.

 

[Cyan]

But right now people are defending the suspension of habeus corpus. Thats like defending the interment.

It's funny how Republicans are all about strict interpretation of the Constitution, except when it would go against their position on an issue.