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[Future PhaZe]

Where exactly is Palin anyway? Why does McCain think its a good thing to hide his VP pick? This election is a month away and we have a great understanding of what Bidens about and what his views are. As sad as it would be, if something were to happen to Obama I wouldn't be terribly disturbed should Biden have to step in.

With Palin I really don't know anything about her, and I just wonder why the Republicans think its a good idea to barely show a possible future president to the public.

 

[maximum360]

Rasmussen for today.

O - 50 (+0)
M - 44 (-1)

 

[Cloudy]

With Palin I really don't know anything about her, and I just wonder why the Republicans think its a good idea to barely show a possible future president to the public.

It was a good plan till this financial crisis hit. The public isn't interested in playing games and culture wars anymore..

 

[WickedAngel]

Where exactly is Palin anyway? Why does McCain think its a good thing to hide his VP pick? This election is a month away and we have a great understanding of what Bidens about and what his views are. As sad as it would be, if something were to happen to Obama I wouldn't be terribly disturbed should Biden have to step in.

With Palin I really don't know anything about her, and I just wonder why the Republicans think its a good idea to barely show a possible future president to the public.

Because she is just as toxic as that nuclear waste that McCain rambled on about reprocessing last night.

 

[Keio]

Turning my attention to the looming VP debate, I checked Palin's performance at the Alaska debates when she was running for governor.

I disagree with her on pretty much every issue, but at least there is no Putin and rearing heads here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1-B-OyQ-KI

 

[typhonsentra]

All of GAF didn't miss the boat, sir.

Most did. Back when the debate had just ended only a few people (Myself included) thought Obama won. Nearly everyone was complaining about Obama complimenting McCain too when in reality that was all a part of his (Effective) strategy.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Okay I just got done skimming through 70 pages. WOW. I thought the polls would've been close! Turns out a lot of us were wrong! :lol

 

[worldrunover]

Another good point,

I think Obama saying "Look, John is right" and being very respectfull were helpfull to Obama. Women like concilitory gestures and people finding middle ground. McCain refused to do this, he kept saying "obama is naive", etc.

So not only did he look like an angry old man who wouldnt look Obama in the eye, he failed to find middle ground and looked more like a partisan hack for it.

Matthews brought up the point that Nixon also said he agreed with Kennedy in many instances in debates. Just saying.

Maybe I wanted Obama to drive the points home a little better. I mean, come on. Bin Laden is still free in large part because Bush and McCain distracted us with the war in Iraq! And McCain claims he knows how to catch Bin Laden but isn't telling anyone! How is that POSSIBLY sound judgment and leadership!?

Anyway, stuff like that. But I understand Obama doesn't need to make a splash in the debates, since he's ahead now. Slow and steady wins the race.

 

[Cloudy]

BTW, is it just me or does McCain feel he's owed the presidency because of his "record"?

He might wanna tone that down cos it looks bad unless you're a diehard supporter (that is pretty much the only argument they have for him lol)

 

[worldrunover]

Where exactly is Palin anyway? Why does McCain think its a good thing to hide his VP pick? This election is a month away and we have a great understanding of what Bidens about and what his views are. As sad as it would be, if something were to happen to Obama I wouldn't be terribly disturbed should Biden have to step in.

With Palin I really don't know anything about her, and I just wonder why the Republicans think its a good idea to barely show a possible future president to the public.

She's dumb as a post, that's why. The only thing the McCain camp is praying for is that Biden is either A) overly cordial as to not look imposing or demeaning, or B) imposing and demeaning, so they can play the sympathy card. She really has no credible knowledge of any current situation, foreign or domestic.

 

[WickedAngel]

Most did. Back when the debate had just ended only a few people (Myself included) thought Obama won. Nearly everyone was complaining about Obama complimenting McCain too when in reality that was all a part of his (Effective) strategy.

Most isn't all, though. My initial reaction that came immediately after the debate was similar in that I knew that independents wouldn't be swayed by McCain's performance. Being lumped in with the knee-jerk paranoia crowd by people who share our views is just as annoying as being implied as a hive-mind by our opposition, though.

 

[gcubed]

so i purposefully stayed away from this place last night, but i didnt think either candidate was head and shoulders above the other one in the debate.

Guess i was wrong? I didnt even want to turn on all the pundits because i'm getting politics overload

 

[typhonsentra]

PAY ATTENTION TO ME!!!!!!!!

:lol

 

[StoOgE]

My reaction to the debate was a real wash with a slight Obama tilt since he proved that he knew what the hell he was talking about with this stuff.

So, StoOgE is officially off the "chicken little" list.

 

[StoOgE]

Matthews brought up the point that Nixon also said he agreed with Kennedy in many instances in debates. Just saying.

Maybe I wanted Obama to drive the points home a little better. I mean, come on. Bin Laden is still free in large part because Bush and McCain distracted us with the war in Iraq! And McCain claims he knows how to catch Bin Laden but isn't telling anyone! How is that POSSIBLY sound judgment and leadership!?

Anyway, stuff like that. But I understand Obama doesn't need to make a splash in the debates, since he's ahead now. Slow and steady wins the race.

Yeah, but Nixon's problem was his non-verbals. Remember the famous thing about those debates, people who listened on the radio thought Nixon won. People who watched it on TV thought JFK won.

Nixon agreeing with JFK was not his biggest problem. Not looking as presidential as Kennedy was. I think most would agree Obama came off "looking" better, so that isnt a real issue.

Obama did just fine on substance and won the non-verbal stuff, and most critically got the big soundbite of the evening "wrong wrong wrong on Iraq"

 

[Sharp]

so i purposefully stayed away from this place last night, but i didnt think either candidate was head and shoulders above the other one in the debate.

Guess i was wrong? I didnt even want to turn on all the pundits because i'm getting politics overload

You were right (I'd give a slight advantage to McCain) but it turns out that America cares about things like eye contact a lot more than we do. Or expected him to fail or something.

Incidentally, watching that 2006 Alaskan governor debate made me realize that Palin isn't a total idiot. She can do reasonably well if sufficiently coached. She'll still lose, though; the better she does, the more aggressive Biden will be able to be.

 

[WickedAngel]

so i purposefully stayed away from this place last night, but i didnt think either candidate was head and shoulders above the other one in the debate.

Guess i was wrong? I didnt even want to turn on all the pundits because i'm getting politics overload

The American people unwittingly treat debates like they're a college class. A portion of your score comes from substance, a portion from Topic A, a portion from Topic B, a portion from demeanor, and so on/so forth.

McCain scored on Topic C and D but they weren't even close to being as heavily weighted as the number one priority on the minds of the American people; the economy. Obama scored slightly less on the issues that were lightly weighted and more on the issues that people hold in high regard (Economic issues, demeanor, intellect, cordiality, etc).

The people who insisted McCain won are similar to those who make good grades on quizzes but bomb the test. McCain made better scores on some quizzes; Obama aced the test.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

You were right (I'd give a slight advantage to McCain) but it turns out that America cares about things like eye contact a lot more than we do. Or expected him to fail or something.

True, but a wash is, frankly, potentially devestating to McCain's campaign. He needed a commanding grand slam, not just to gain ground, but to pull Obama back under 50%.

 

[typhonsentra]

Most isn't all, though. My initial reaction that came immediately after the debate was similar in that I knew that independents wouldn't be swayed by McCain's performance. Being lumped in with the knee-jerk paranoia crowd by people who share our views is just as annoying as being implied as a hive-mind by our opposition, though.

Again, go back in the thread and see the posts right after the debate ended. The few of us (You indluded) who felt Obama beat McCain handily were in the minority.

 

[StoOgE]

You were right (I'd give a slight advantage to McCain) but it turns out that America cares about things like eye contact a lot more than we do. Or expected him to fail or something.

Incidentally, watching that 2006 Alaskan governor debate made me realize that Palin isn't a total idiot. She can do reasonably well if sufficiently coached. She'll still lose, though; the better she does, the more aggressive Biden will be able to be.

Combination of the two.

A lot of Americans who dont pay that close of attention thought Obama didnt have the sort of basic knowledge of FP issues that he displayed last night. In that way just showing up and not getting basic facts wrong was a big win for him.

The other big winner was the economy, that was the number 1 voter issue and continues to be. So Obama being able to reassure people on FP issues while getting high marks for the economy was a big part of why he won this in their minds.

And McCain looking and acting like a jerk while Obama was calm and collected was a big plus.

Look, Gaffers wanted Obama to go for blood and just tear McCain apart. If he had done that, McCain would have won. Team Obama knows what they are doing and they coached him to come off exactly the way he did for a reason.

 

[Stoney Mason]

All of GAF didn't miss the boat, sir.

I'll stop using the gaf card.


To give Mccain some credit I thought he did better than Bush did in any of the debates he had in trying to make the case for the war. I thought Obama also rebuffed pretty well when he said Mccain seems to think the war started with the surge or that the poor judgment to even go to war is off the table for Mccain. I liked the debate because you got both ideologies presented to the American people and no one can claim they are confused about who stands where. As an Obama supporter I'm perfectly happy with the distinction that was drawn because I think we can win on that. I have to assume Mccain supporters feel the same so it's up to people to decide.

 

[WickedAngel]

Again, go back in the thread and see the posts right after the debate ended. The few of us (You indluded) who felt Obama beat McCain handily were in the minority.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

Again, I'm simply emphasizing the difference between "Most" and "All". In order for "all" of GAF to have been wrong, we'd have had to have been whining about a perceived lost as well.

 

[Hitokage]

Most of GAF are like hungry dogs who only care if their master throws them a meaty bone or not. Obama had better things to do.

Anyway, now that this thread has slowed down, I'll mention that I'm rather impressed that last night's debate was something resembling an actual debate, and not just a game of thirty second stump. Sure, it wasn't ideal in that regard, but it was so much better than what passed for a debate in previous elections.

 

[StoOgE]

True, but a wash is, frankly, potentially devestating to McCain's campaign. He needed a commanding grand slam, not just to gain ground, but to pull Obama back under 50%.

Exactly.

He also needed a big win in this because lets face it, he is going to take a hit on the VP debate.

McCain needed a cushion to deal with the impending doom that is coming.

Now he has two debates with which to make up that deficit. The town hall will go well for him I imagine, but Obama wont fall over himself like Kerry did.

The last debate is on the economy, where Obama trounces McCain. The last taste in voters mouths is going to be very pro-obama.

 

[ViperVisor]

Bailout beginning killed the debate vibe. It is so complicated and huge neither wanted to get into it. You could go nuts and rail against it but that is insane if you don't live in reality and there is too much time left on the clock and it could well blow up in your face.
Jimbo tried to make it an issue but Barack didn't wanna be specific on what to slim down or cut from his plans and McCain doesn't care that his tax cuts are worse than any spending Barack or Paulson wants.

So the heads complaining Barack didn't connect/pander/feel pain for the avg folk have to see the situation didn't lend itself to doing this.

Will be in much better position to do this on
# Tuesday, October 7
# Wednesday, October 15

 

[heliosRAzi]

My favorite part of the debate was the "You Were Wrong" part where Obama kept laying it into McCain. Best part, imo.

 

[mclem]

Mccain looked like a flip flopping, out of touch money grubber, who knows less about foreign policy and the economy, then his running mate.

It was a slaughter.

Certainly entitled to your opinions, however bat shit they may be.

You're right. Trax is wrong. There is *no way* McCain looked there like he knows less about foreign policy and the economy than his running mate. I'm fairly sure the bar he set here she will *spectacularly* fail to meet on Thursday.

 

[gcubed]

i dont consider myself the norm voter, but when a candidate says "i agree with..." it shows me he either has the balls or the will to go with someone who may be right on the issue instead of disagreeing out of shear "Maverickness" so to me, any points McCain got on some answers, we lost in what i call the "cringe" factor. Anytime i'm watching something and it appears like a trainwreck happening in front of me, thats a negative. McCain had a few, and if you watched some of the CNN replay with the voter opinion underneath, you can see the nose dive. "I dont win Miss Congeality contests... i'm not called the Maverick for nothing, and now i have quite a maverick of my own"

And IMO, earmarks are now a negative for him to bring up. All it does is make the large majority of people think about his VP who is earmark queen, which makes his statements a standing contradiction

 

[gkryhewy]

My favorite part of the debate was the "You Were Wrong" part where Obama kept laying it into McCain. Best part, imo.

Especially with McCain just scowling into his notes like a chump as he was saying it.

I couldn't BELIEVE when I popped into GAF at like 10 ET and people were panicking about Obama's performance - oh god, he really needs to step on his throat here or this is a disaster!

Some of these kids really do seem to think this is a wrestling match or something. Or a console war.

 

[so_awes]

what's with the thread title??

 

[mclem]

According to the best polling site FiveThirtyEight.com Obama won in the polls that matter, for example:

As a more lighthearted thing, I tried Wordle.net to create a tag cloud out of the debate; it's a brilliant tool!

I think separate McCain and Obama clouds would be interesting too.

 

[gcubed]

and one more thing... Senator McCain, you dont make jokes and pause for a reaction when the audience is not allowed to respond... it makes you look creepy

 

[snacknuts]

:lol @ Time grading the candidates' debate performances:

Style: Cluttered, jumpy, and often muddled. Frequent coughing early on helped neither his arguments nor his image. Jokes about being deaf and anecdotes about Normandy and George Shultz seemed ill-advised — even his pen was old.

 

[Ptaaty]

I would say the debate was a major victory for Obama. Not because he "won" by much if anything....it is because he majorly closed the gap on the "ready to be president" factor. It is really hard to play the fear and naive card after that debate.

Obama looked fully as capable as McCain on his strongest area.

McCain did better at providing shorter, more soundbyte/emotional responses. However any gains in this area were detroyed by his angry old man vibe. I have heard people's concerns, but the edge in some of his demeanor, and complete inability to look at Obama was odd. If seemed like if he looked at him he would lose all control.

Maybe I am reading into it too much. McCain had excellent points regarding the areas surrounding Russia, and obviously knows his stuff in this area. I just am worried he will continue or even further expand the hawkish path.

 

[The Librarian]

Hi poligaf! I'm standing in line right now for the rally. There are a lot of people here. Anybody have any numbers on how many people saw the debate last night?

 

[Hitokage]

Palin's performance in her debate for governor of Alaska isn't really indicative of how she'll do thursday, simply because then she could talk about Alaskan issues such as areal bombardment of wildlife. This time, however, she's demonstrably in over her head with national issues, and no amount of cramming is going to hide the fact she's bullshitting her way through a subject she never studied before like a truant high schooler. Couric illustrated this quite effectively.

Also, even assuming she was just off her medication that day and her cognitive capacity was merely taking a temporary nosedive, it's now increasingly apparent she drags a metric ton of baggage to be called into account. Lying about the bridge to nowhere, lying about earmarks, and so on are all still there even if giving Bush With Uterus enough rope to hang herself somehow doesn't work. Furthermore, don't forget that the only positive action she's performed for herself thus far is sneer through a speech.

Hi poligaf! I'm standing in line right now for the rally. There are a lot of people here. Anybody have any numbers on how many people saw the debate last night?

I told you to be there at seven!

 

[infiniteloop]

not sure if this has been posted, but here's a CBS video podcast of the debate from iTunes, iPod/iPhone ready:

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=292336523

 

[syllogism]

Rove said this pre-debate

Mr. McCain needs to come across as optimistic, loose and likable. He must guard against revealing his lack of respect for Mr. Obama. And he must grab the "change" banner from Mr. Obama by describing a few things he'll do internationally that are new and different.

He achieved none of those

Also:

Mr. Obama must avoid the pervasive sense of nuance that weakened his performance at the Saddleback Forum. He should attack less.

The counterpunch is better than the punch. The first person to attack generally suffers, especially if the attack comes across as exaggerated or unfair. Attack sparingly and then by inference and obliquely.

A debate tie goes to the frontrunner. With that now being Mr. Obama by a slim margin, Mr. McCain must emerge the clear winner, or his prospects of being the next president will dim.

 

[gkryhewy]

:lol :lol

When is that from?

 

[gkryhewy]

:lol @ Time grading the candidates' debate performances:

Wow, Mark Halperin was really positive on Obama.

 

[Jirotrom]

I said something similar, Biden needs to play his game and show he knows his stuff. Let Palin slit her own throat. She has done 3 interviews and managed to do it 3 times already. Just let the contrast speak for itself, dont go after her.

Biden said something similar last night as well, I think on the MSNBC interview (who knows, I saw 3 of his interviews). He basically said "look, im not there to beat Palin, Im there to speak to the american people". I think they know how to play this to, they are smart guys.

I mean, why try and hurt someones credibility when they are so much better at it themselves.

:lol :lol

 

[lexdysia]

Since Lehrer allowed the Democratic ticket to answer first this time, I hope the next moderator "allows" the Republican ticket to go first next time, with a hard-hitting question. chuckle.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I couldn't believe that McCain said on live TV that Obama voted to raise taxes on the middle class. Not only that, but he said it's a fact! Go check the sources!

Okay:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_32000_question.html

The McCain campaign falsely claims that Obama voted to raise income taxes on individuals earning "as little as $32,000 per year."

Summary

The McCain campaign claims that Obama voted to raise income taxes on individuals who earn as little as $32,000 per year. That's wrong.

The resolution Obama voted for would not have increased taxes on any single taxpayer making less than $41,500 per year in total income, or any couple making less than $83,000. The $32,000 figure is approximately the taxable income of a single person making $41,500 per year, after all deductions and exclusions.

Obama's vote (for a non-binding budget bill) does not change the fact that his own tax plan would provide a tax cut of $502 for a non-married taxpayer earning $35,000.
Update, July 11: After this article was posted the McCain campaign and the Republican National Committee aired a radio ad in two states repeating the bogus $32,000 figure. The campaign also sent an e-mail to reporters defending it, but failing to note that it refers to taxable income and not total income.

:lol

 

[aceface]

I'm honestly surprised this morning that Obama is generally the consensus winner of the debate. Maybe the country really did learn something from 8 years of Bush.

 

[starchild excalibur]

Since Lehrer allowed the Democratic ticket to answer first this time, I hope the next moderator "allows" the Republican ticket to go first next time, with a hard-hitting question. chuckle.

i don't get it. Are you chuckling or are you asking me to chuckle?

:|

I'm honestly surprised this morning that Obama is generally the consensus winner of the debate. Maybe the country really did learn something from 8 years of Bush.

Same here, although i'm ecstatic to see that's the case. Right after the debate it felt like sort of a tie for me due to my fears that McCain's condescending demeanor might be read as a sign of power. I'm glad I was wrong for the most part.

 

[Hitokage]

i don't get it. Are you chuckling or are you asking me to chuckle?

:|

Don't just sit there. CHUCKLE, DAMN IT.

 

[3rdman]

Combination of the two.

A lot of Americans who dont pay that close of attention thought Obama didnt have the sort of basic knowledge of FP issues that he displayed last night. In that way just showing up and not getting basic facts wrong was a big win for him.

The other big winner was the economy, that was the number 1 voter issue and continues to be. So Obama being able to reassure people on FP issues while getting high marks for the economy was a big part of why he won this in their minds.

And McCain looking and acting like a jerk while Obama was calm and collected was a big plus.

Look, Gaffers wanted Obama to go for blood and just tear McCain apart. If he had done that, McCain would have won. Team Obama knows what they are doing and they coached him to come off exactly the way he did for a reason.

I really think that was a concerted strategy...he's behind and he knows that Obama has got his shit down. His only chance was to antagonize him and hope that he gaffes. Ultimately McCain came off as someone with plenty of understanding of the issues but petulant...Last night he acted like the stereotypical "old guy" wondering who this "young whippersnapper" thinks he is...

 

[starchild excalibur]

Don't just sit there. CHUCKLE, DAMN IT.

HA
HA!

 

[Tobor]

I really think that was a concerted strategy...he's behind and he knows that Obama has got his shit down. His only chance was to antagonize him and hope that he gaffes. Ultimately McCain came off as someone with plenty of understanding of the issues but petulant...Last night he acted like the stereotypical "old guy" wondering who this "young whippersnapper" thinks he is...

The infamous "Get off my lawn!" strategy.

 

[Cloudy]

Any new polls besides Rasmussen?