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[Deus Ex Machina]

CNN Quick Vote up. The President vs. A Dick on Gitmo.

"Whom do you agree with most on closing Guantanamo Bay?"

http://www.cnn.com/

 

[polyh3dron]

One thing Cheney said in his speech that I completely agree with:

The administration seems to pride itself on searching for some kind of middle ground in policies addressing terrorism. Triangulation is a political strategy, not a national security strategy.

 

[APF]

Cheney is just trying to defend his record. It has nothing to do with trying to be the GOP leader or whatever nonsense.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

One thing Cheney said in his speech that I completely agree with:

And torture is Illegal. Who gives a shit what he thinks.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Cheney is just trying to defend his record. It has nothing to do with trying to be the GOP leader or whatever nonsense.

Yes. But by going out there, it has bigger implications than just trying to set the record straight about what happened during the Bush years. This debate is currently going on in Washington, and Cheney -- regardless of his reasons -- has the appearance of spearheading the GOP ideology on this topic. Incidentally, it gives him an aura of leadership.

This, of course, is a gift from the gods for the Obama administration.

 

[PhoenixDark]

The "flaw" was slavery.

gotchya!

So will everyone be saying this on the afternoon news shows, responding to the speech?

 

[polyh3dron]

And torture is Illegal. Who gives a shit what he thinks.

Yes, torture is illegal and I think Cheney should be prosecuted for his role in the policy that enabled said torture, but that has nothing to do with the Obama Administration basically going for some false middle ground on many issues, not just national security.

 

[Particle Physicist]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/20/dems-hire-speed-reader-for-climate-change-bill/

Dems hire speed reader for climate change bill

WASHINGTON (CNN) – As Congress prepares for a weeklong recess next week, Democrats on the House Energy and Commerce Committee have armed themselves with a special weapon to deal with a possible Republican effort to delay getting a major piece of legislation out of committee by Memorial Day.

Democrats on the committee have hired a speed reader to read the more than 900-page climate change bill if necessary.

A request to have the entire bill read aloud is a prerogative Republicans have a right to invoke which could be used to frustrate Committee Chairman Henry Waxman's deadline of Memorial Day to get the committee's work on the bill done.

Even with the use of the speed reader, reading the entire bill could take the equivalent of more than a full work day of time.

:lol

 

[JayDubya]

So will everyone be saying this on the afternoon news shows, responding to the speech?

I would love for the afternoon news shows to address a radio interview in which our current president states that it was a tragedy that the Constitution wasn't radically reinterpreted by the Supreme Court to favor "redistributive change."

I mean, that's certainly the same thing as "Slavery was bad."

 

[mckmas8808]

I'll just like to say FUCK THE GOT DAMN MEDIA!!!!

Edit: I'm watching MSNBC

 

[APF]

Yes. But by going out there, it has bigger implications than just trying to set the record straight about what happened during the Bush years. This debate is currently going on in Washington, and Cheney -- regardless of his reasons -- has the appearance of spearheading the GOP ideology on this topic. Incidentally, it gives him an aura of leadership.

This, of course, is a gift from the gods for the Obama administration.

You realize though, this "quest for the GOP leader" meme is entirely constructed by the DNC. If Scorcho were here he'd call that "savvy," and I'd be inclined to agree.

 

[polyh3dron]

I'll just like to say FUCK THE GOT DAMN MEDIA!!!!

Edit: I'm watching MSNBC

Why, what did they say?

 

[speculawyer]

Cheney is just trying to defend his record. It has nothing to do with trying to be the GOP leader or whatever nonsense.

No matter his intent, he is the face of the GOP that has been getting the most TV & radio time, so that makes him the face of the GOP for the moment.

 

[mckmas8808]

And this 14% "return to the battlefield" number is COMPLETE BULLSHIT!!! The information is out there to prove that, that number is too high and the CIA or/and FBI are lying.

 

[adamsappel]

I'm sick of this whole "find a middle ground" schtick of Obama's right now. Basically it seems like he's looking at both sides of an argument with a disregard for the difference in validity on either side and then he compromises and goes straight down the middle.

The problem with this is that one side (the GOP) will take a doubly crazy hard line stance on everything so that the middle ground ends up being exactly what they wanted in the first place.

You can't fucking build consensus on any of these issues and I don't know why Obama is pussyfooting around trying to please these fucktard Republicans. Watch the Supreme Court Justice he ends up nominating be a center-right kind of judge which makes the Supreme Court basically conservative. And even with a moderate to center-right nominee the Republicans will STILL come out saying he/she is an ultra-liberal activist judge.

They are going to scream bloody murder no matter WHAT Obama does, he may as well go and do the RIGHT THING.

The people who will end up being most disappointed with Obama will be leftist-liberals. Conservatives will eventually realize they kept their guns, (most of them) got tax cuts, he didn't appoint Jay-Z to a cabinet position, there were no concentration camps or reparations, etc. But, despite what some want to believe, Obama is not a closet atheist, he doesn't support full marriage rights for gays, he doesn't want marijuana legalized, he will nominate a moderate judge for the Supreme Court. He's just not that guy, sorry. That guy is actually unelectable, and those policies wouldn't be enacted by Congress anyway. Perhaps those policies will come to fruition under his watch, but he's not going to, nor can, declare them by fiat.

 

[Clevinger]

No matter his intent, he is the face of the GOP that has been getting the most TV & radio time, so that makes him the face of the GOP for the moment.

That would be Steele or Boehner (or even Rush), not Cheney.

 

[mckmas8808]

Why, what did they say?

They are treating Cheney on level ground with Obama. As if Cheney didn't start a war on bullshit intellengence.

The media is acting like Cheney didn't DIRECTLY lie to them about the evidence against Saddam. And they are acting like we haven't/aren't housing terrorist on America soil now!

 

[Deku]

They are treating Cheney on level ground with Obama. As if Cheney didn't start a war on bullshit intellengence.

The media is acting like Cheney didn't DIRECTLY lie to them about the evidence against Saddam. And they are acting like we haven't/aren't housing terrorist on America soil now!

That is unfortunatelly the problem with US news coverage in general.

If there's two sides to an argument they will cover both and lend credence to both sides even if one of the sides is completely off the wall.

That has been the right wing corporate strategy to stall climate change regulations. They try to create the impression of controversy to create a false debate.

 

[Duke Togo]

I'm just making sure its still 2009, and not 2002,3,4,5,6,7 or 8. Why the FUCK is Dick Cheney still on my TV?

 

[GhaleonEB]

Just thought I'd mention that Al Gore at least had the class to wait a few years before he began criticizing the Bush administration in public. He gave them the courtesy a long grace period, as Bush - to his credit - is also doing now. Cheney is a resentful douche bag.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Nevada-GAF

Vote Harry Reid out please

there's no coming back from the retarded shit i just heard coming out of him

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Nevada-GAF

Vote Harry Reid out please

there's no coming back from the retarded shit i just heard coming out of him

What did Harry Reid say yesterday about GITMO detainees? Something about if you put in then you have to let them go? I wanted to jump out my balcony.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Just thought I'd mention that Al Gore at least had the class to wait a few years before he began criticizing the Bush administration in public. He gave them the courtesy a long grace period, as Bush - to his credit - is also doing now. Cheney is a resentful douche bag.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...bush_policies_un-american_in_2002_speech.html
?

Cheney wanting to defend himself is understandable, and imo preferred over him hiding while this debate is going. That being said, his attacks on Obama are ridiculous. He can "defend" his record honorably without throwing pot shots

 

[Steve Youngblood]

You realize though, this "quest for the GOP leader" meme is entirely constructed by the DNC.

Yes. Your point?

 

[APF]

They are treating Cheney on level ground with Obama.

If Cheney is to be considered the defacto head of the GOP, then why shouldn't he be treated as a direct ideological opponent to the head of the Democratic party?


Steve Youngblood: nothing, just saying you're falling for and regurgitating talking points, is all.

 

[polyh3dron]

What did Harry Reid say yesterday about GITMO detainees? Something about if you put in then you have to let them go? I wanted to jump out my balcony.

Yes. I thought he was a Republican for a minute.

 

[GhaleonEB]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...bush_policies_un-american_in_2002_speech.html
?

Cheney wanting to defend himself is understandable, and imo preferred over him hiding while this debate is going. That being said, his attacks on Obama are ridiculous. He can "defend" his record honorably without throwing pot shots

Heh. Didn't know about that speech. Still, I can't recall this kind of long, sustained PR campaign by Gore or any other former president/veep right after an election. I'm fine with him defending himself - considering he was the architect of a lot of this - but as you said Cheney is being, well, Cheney in the process. Lies, fear mongering, the works. Pretty classless.

 

[speculawyer]

That would be Steele or Boehner (or even Rush), not Cheney.

I don't think anyone takes Michael Steele seriously. The GOP is trying to figure out how to fire him without it being an ugly mess. Cheney has been getting more coverage than Boehner lately.

Dick Cheney even delayed the start of his speech so press coverage could move to him. He's certainly trying to grab the attention.

 

[Justin Bailey]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/20/dems-hire-speed-reader-for-climate-change-bill/

Dems hire speed reader for climate change bill





:lol

Is the micro-machine guy still around? They should get him to do it.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Heh. Didn't know about that speech. Still, I can't recall this kind of long, sustained PR campaign by Gore or any other former president/veep right after an election. I'm fine with him defending himself - considering he was the architect of a lot of this - but as you said Cheney is being, well, Cheney in the process. Lies, fear mongering, the works. Pretty classless.

Agreed, Gore had a few "shots fired" moments but nothing like this. I haven't read/seen his speech yet but I saw some excerpts on tpm including

Another term out there that slipped into the discussion is the notion that American interrogation practices were a "recruitment tool" for the enemy. On this theory, by the tough questioning of killers, we have supposedly fallen short of our own values. This recruitment-tool theory has become something of a mantra lately, including from the President himself. And after a familiar fashion, it excuses the violent and blames America for the evil that others do. It's another version of that same old refrain from the Left, "We brought it on ourselves."

What the hell. That's not a left mantra, it's something the CIA has said for a long time.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Steve Youngblood: nothing, just saying you're falling for and regurgitating talking points, is all.

Falling for? No. It is possible to understand and distinguish the merits of politics as it relates to policy making and how it plays out as a form of theatre.

As it pertains to the latter, Cheney coming out to talk about national security is absolutely the last thing the GOP needs right now. And again, when I say "the last thing the GOP needs right now," I'm specifically talking about how it affects public opinion.

 

[Diatribe1974]

Never count on any current politician to ever keep their campaign promises. Oh, you might see an occasional one kept, but the bulk of their promises will either be conveniently "forgotten" or at the very least, met with varied stages of compromise. For me, the last real "For the people..." president we had was JFK.

 

[APF]

Falling for? No. It is possible to understand and distinguish the merits of politics as it relates to policy making and how it plays out as a form of theatre.

And yet, by repeating a meme constructed solely for the latter purpose, you demonstrate an inability to do so.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

And yet, by repeating a meme constructed solely for the latter purpose, you demonstrate an inability to do so.

I don't follow your game, here.

...Aha! You got me again, APF!

Anyhoo, my analysis -- if you'll allow me to use such a lofty word for time-wasting at work -- is purely in regards to the spectacle that is these guys duking it out to win public opinion. In that regard, this could not possibly play out any better for Obama or the Democrats.

Concerning whatever trap of your's that you think I've fallen victim to, congratulations?

 

[APF]

Uh, my "trap" was just to say my original point, that this isn't about Cheney trying to be the head of the GOP or any such nonsense, and is really just about him trying to defend his record.

 

[Justin Bailey]

Falling for? No. It is possible to understand and distinguish the merits of politics as it relates to policy making and how it plays out as a form of theatre.

As it pertains to the latter, Cheney coming out to talk about national security is absolutely the last thing the GOP needs right now. And again, when I say "the last thing the GOP needs right now," I'm specifically talking about how it affects public opinion.

Since when did Cheney care about public opinion? lulz

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Uh, my "trap" was just to say my original point, that this isn't about Cheney trying to be the head of the GOP or any such nonsense, and is really just about him trying to defend his record.

Which is perfectly fine.

What I'm saying, though, is that politically (in polling terms), this is a terrible move for the GOP. Mind you, I'm not saying that Cheney isn't moving to the beat of his own drum, or that this is a concerted effort. I'm just saying that if I was a GOP strategist, for instance, I would be doing everything in my power to keep Cheney out of the spotlight. Barring that, I would be distancing myself from this fight in Congress.

Regardless of whether or not they approve or disapprove or care about Cheney at all, they ARE trying to spark up the national security debate again. And whether concerted or not, the viewers at home can only sit there and think that Cheney is leading the GOP charge on this debate.

Again, I don't really care to guess at what Cheney's true motives are. He's clearing his name? That's not how it plays out.

But do carry on with your style of winning arguments nobody but you cares about to be the ultimate contrarion.

Justin: I never said he did.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Cheney is dividing this country even more for his own political gain, and I would love for an investigation to reveal the illegality of his actions. The American people need to see accountability in some form for what has happened over the past 8 years.

 

[APF]

And whether concerted or not, the viewers at home can only sit there and think that Cheney is leading the GOP charge on this debate.

The "viewers at home" don't tend to see everything in starkly partisan terms, which is why the Dems have tried to spread this meme of, "so-and-so is the defacto head of the GOP."

 

[Steve Youngblood]

The "viewers at home" don't tend to see everything in starkly partisan terms, which is why the Dems have tried to spread this meme of, "so-and-so is the defacto head of the GOP."

They've tried to "spread the meme" because it is shrewd strategy aimed at exploiting the directionless nature of the GOP.

Whether Cheney cares or not (and it's likely he doesn't), a competent Republican strategist should be pulling their hair out knowing that the response to Obama's national security speech is going to be offered by Cheney. Furthermore, Cheney's rhetoric is largely consistent with what Republicans are still arguing in Congress RIGHT NOW, so it's not like they can throw him under the bus and say that he's gone rogue and is playing his own game.

In summary, Cheney in the spotlight is bad for Republicans.

 

[APF]

I believe I called it "savvy"

 

[mckmas8808]

If Cheney is to be considered the defacto head of the GOP, then why shouldn't he be treated as a direct ideological opponent to the head of the Democratic party?


Steve Youngblood: nothing, just saying you're falling for and regurgitating talking points, is all.

Air time is one thing. But to act as if Obama and Cheney have the same crediblity is stupid.

Dick literally LIED on national TV (MSNBC's Meet the Press) about the evidence that they had on Saddam. That should count for something. And the media should remember that. It just happened 6 years ago and everything is on tape.

No excuses.

 

[APF]

There's a high tolerance in people's minds for politicians being flexible with the truth. Of course, this has little to do with the media going with the natural pairing-off that's occurred with these two speeches.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I believe I called it "savvy"

Which I believe I conceded as a fair assessment.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Larry O' Donnell is fucking pissed. :lol :lol :lol

http://tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com/?id=2566806&ref=fpblg

 

[Karma Kramer]

Larry O' Donnell is fucking pissed. :lol :lol :lol

http://tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com/?id=2566806&ref=fpblg

Good... he's the only one cutting through the bullshit in the media.

 

[mckmas8808]

Larry O' Donnell is fucking pissed. :lol :lol :lol

http://tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com/?id=2566806&ref=fpblg

And he deserves to be because people like Pat Buchanan are acting like having Gitmo terrorist locked up on America's soil is a horrible thing.

But Pat never ever mentions the fact that many terrorist are already locked up in our prisions today.

Politics are so fucking stupid sometimes.

 

[Oblivion]

Does somebody have a video of the speech?

 

[APF]

Independents Take Center Stage in the Obama Era

Centrism has emerged as a dominant factor in public opinion as the Obama era begins. The political values and core attitudes that the Pew Research Center has monitored since 1987 show little overall ideological movement. Republicans and Democrats are even more divided than in the past, while the growing political middle is steadfastly mixed in its beliefs about government, the free market and other values that underlie views on contemporary issues and policies. Nor are there indications of a continuation of the partisan realignment that began in the Bush years. Both political parties have lost adherents since the election and an increasing number of Americans identify as independents.

The proportion of independents now equals its highest level in 70 years. Owing to defections from the Republican Party, independents are more conservative on several key issues than in the past. While they like and approve of Barack Obama, as a group independents are more skittish than they were two years ago about expanding the social safety net and are reluctant backers of greater government involvement in the private sector. Yet at the same time, they continue to more closely parallel the views of Democrats rather than Republicans on the most divisive core beliefs on social values, religion and national security.

While the Democrats gained a sizable advantage in partisan affiliation during George Bush's presidency, their numbers slipped between December 2008 and April 2009, from 39% to 33%. Republican losses have been a little more modest, from 26% to 22%, but this represents the lowest level of professed affiliation with the GOP in at least a quarter century. Moreover, on nearly every dimension the Republican Party is at a low ebb--- from image, to morale, to demographic vitality.

By contrast, the percentage of self-described political independents has steadily climbed, on a monthly basis, from 30% last December to 39% in April. Taking an average of surveys conducted this year, 36% say they are independents, 35% are Democrats, while 23% are Republicans. On an annual basis, the only previous year when independent identification has been this high was in 1992 when Ross Perot ran a popular independent candidacy.

As has been the case in recent years, more independents "lean" Democratic than Republican (17% vs. 12%). Yet an increasing share of independents describe their views as conservative; in surveys conducted this year, 33% of independents say they are conservatives, up from 28% in 2007 and 26% in 2005. Again, this ideological change is at least in part a consequence of former Republicans moving into the ranks of independents.

[...]

More

 

[Particle Physicist]

If Cheney is to be considered the defacto head of the GOP, then why shouldn't he be treated as a direct ideological opponent to the head of the Democratic party?


Steve Youngblood: nothing, just saying you're falling for and regurgitating talking points, is all.

Because Obama is the head of the whole country, not just one party.