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PolliGaf 2012 |OT5| Big Bird, Binders, Bayonets, Bad News and Benghazi

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T

thefro

Member
There's basically no reason to do a 30-minute, national informerical when it's an inefficient use of money. But we'll see, they may put something up if they have way more money than they can spend.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
empty vessel said:
But Mourdock is applying it to other people. Lord knows he will never end up pregnant from a rape. He is telling women they should not be permitted to abort the fetus because it is part of God's plan. And if the fetus is part of God's plan, so was the rape. And if the rape was part of God's plan, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you must find my client not guilty, for if it be holy writ, you must acquit.
Click to expand...

This is just the predestination fallacy. Sure, God may have written that you would rape this lady, but God also wrote that you would go to jail for 20 years to life, so everything works out*. The fact that God may have predetermined all of our actions doesn't remove our apparent responsibility for them, any more than the fact that the entire experience of life may be a fantasy in my head removes our apparent responsibility for them. That's the problem with nihilism (and predestination is certainly nihilistic), it's not applicable to actual questions because it just denies they exist.

Gotchaye said:
Theodicy doesn't tell people how to act; it just explains why the world looks the way it does. Mourdock was trying to tell people how to act.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about that. From the perspective of a hardline pro-life crazo such as Mourdock, "murder is wrong" is sufficient to tell people how to act. Mourdock isn't addressing the question of "why should we ban abortion in the case of rape" when he's talking about God's plan -- his answer is "because murder," which we all already knew he'd say. He's answering the question of "doesn't that position seem fundamentally messed up to you?" Theodicy is a (not necessarily the) response to that question.

Gotchaye said:
Edit: I should note that Mourdock's modified position on this seems to be going even further away from theodicy. He seems pretty clear now that the rape isn't intended by God, just the pregnancy, because "biology isn't random". What he's saying now is that pregnancy is literally miraculous, which is at least as crazy as "the female body has ways to shut that whole thing down" (and as Jon Stewart noted, it makes God an absolutely terrible gift-giver).
Click to expand...

Well, this is just stupid, but that's okay, I want him out anyway and I'm pro-choice, so.

* Nothing works out, but everything was intended to not work out.
 
F

Father_Brain

Banned
Here's the latest Romney spin on Ohio:

With less than two weeks to go, the Romney-Ryan ticket remains poised to win Ohio’s 18 electoral votes because our ticket has more enthusiasm, has a better ground game, is leading among independents by a wide margin, and is crippling President Obama’s early voting strategy by significantly slicing into his 2008 margin of victory in that category.

Further, a steady upward trajectory among key voting blocs indicates a close race, but one that is unmistakably moving in Mitt Romney’s direction.

Some public polling shows the true nature of the race. Rasmussen this week showed it tied at 48%, Suffolk tied at 47%, and Angus-Reid tied at 48%. Our view is that the race is a dead heat with Romney on an unmistakable upward track.

Other public polling continues to vastly overstate Democrat partisan advantages in Ohio. For example, the Time Magazine poll this week shows a nine-point advantage for Democrats in party identification, which would be a stronger Democratic turnout than in either of the last two presidential campaigns in the state. A reasonable look at the political climate tells us the partisan boundaries of this race will be fought somewhere between R+5 (2004) and D+8 (2008). Anything more than D+8 shows a survey to be vastly out of touch with today’s political reality – Obama isn’t as popular, his base isn’t as energized, and Mitt Romney’s supporters are poised to shatter voter contact records in Ohio.
Click to expand...

More at the link, if you dare.
 
G

Gotchaye

Member
pigeon said:
I'm not sure about that. From the perspective of a hardline pro-life crazo such as Mourdock, "murder is wrong" is sufficient to tell people how to act. Mourdock isn't addressing the question of "why should we ban abortion in the case of rape" when he's talking about God's plan -- his answer is "because murder," which we all already knew he'd say. He's answering the question of "doesn't that position seem fundamentally messed up to you?" Theodicy is a (not necessarily the) response to that question.
Click to expand...
Perhaps this isn't important enough to bother really getting in to, but if it's theodicy it's a very theologically silly kind.

Right? Ultimately, there are two ways to theodicize pregnancy from a rape. There's "That really sucks, but have faith that it's part of God's greater plan". And there's "Wow, you're so lucky that you got pregnant as a result of this horrible trauma. God has really blessed you." Typical theodicy doesn't assume that something that seems bad is actually good in itself; it just argues that things that seem bad are part of greater goods. Dr. Pangloss only ever celebrated apparent bads because he knew that they were part of greater goods, and he was a comical character because he was too focused on the greater goods to spend much time being sad about the apparent bads. Mourdock is going even farther and saying that women should celebrate apparent bads because they're wrong to even think that they're bad. Which is pretty offensive, if technically theodicy.

Edit: To be clear, my problem with Mourdock's comments taken as theodicy is that there's no sympathy there. It's not "yes, there's a lot of evil in the world, now let me explain to you why that evil is justified". It's "I know you think that there's a lot of evil in the world, but you're just wrong. Now smile!"
 
C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
Listening to Hannity just now and he was arguing that Romney is close to being up in Ohio, that he will take Florida, Colorado, Virginia, Penn, and has a good shot at Michigan. That the only reputable polls are Gallup and Ras which are showing Romney up three and that Obama will probably end at 45 nationally.

I laughed.
 
B

Bowdz

Member
ClovingWestbrook said:
Listening to Hannity just now and he was arguing that Romney is close to being up in Ohio, that he will take Florida, Colorado, Virginia, Penn, and has a good shot at Michigan. That the only reputable polls are Gallup and Ras which are showing Romney up three and that Obama will probably end at 45 nationally.

I laughed.
Click to expand...

I've always been curious if Hannity actually believes the shit that he says or if he is just playing the part for the money.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
empty vessel said:
But Mourdock is applying it to other people. Lord knows he will never end up pregnant from a rape. He is telling women they should not be permitted to abort the fetus because it is part of God's plan. And if the fetus is part of God's plan, so was the rape. And if the rape was part of God's plan, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you must find my client not guilty, for if it be holy writ, you must acquit.

Mourdock: rapes are God's plan for women, at least those that result in pregnancies anyway.
Click to expand...
And if the rape and the fetus are part of god's plan, the abortion is also part of god's plan. It has been that way for decades. If god really didn't like that, she would have changed it.
 
M

Mackenzie 92

Member
Heisenberg said:
Really don't want to see a popular/EC split and the controversy that comes with it.

I hope the popular vote swings before election day - even though 538 still has O getting 50% of the vote I'm not convinced.
Click to expand...



It just depends on if people get out and vote. At least people aren't going to get comfortable thinking Obama has it in the bag.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
Cyan said:
I don't see how that follows. It's like saying that because of physics, everything is determined ahead of time, and therefore it was always the case that this rapist would rape, and therefore you should find him not guilty.
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I'm just fooling around with the "defense arguments," but it is true that determinism does indeed raise philosophically serious questions about culpability and punishment. (That's an aside I'm not looking to get into.)

Cyan said:
Come on, amigo. The entire point of all that stuff I wrote was that this was not what he was saying at all.
Click to expand...

I think we just disagree. I agree that he was not saying that directly, or even consciously contemplating it. But it is just one, small logical step removed from what he was saying. And I don't think it's fair to let people get away with saying A but not B when B necessarily follows from A. Mourdock surely knows that women cannot become involuntarily pregnant without intercourse. I don't see how one can separate God's plan for pregnancy against a woman's will from God's plan for intercourse against the woman's will.

Of course, all this is argument, and Mourdock is an idiot. Still, I think even idiots should be accountable for the simple logical extensions of what they say. If we cannot hold idiots accountable, how will they ever learn?
 
X

xnipx

Member
People also justify death as a "home going" service and God "calling one of his Angels back" I don't really see it as a justification for murder just a rationalizing through faith. Akin can ead tho
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Cyan said:
I don't see how that follows. It's like saying that because of physics, everything is determined ahead of time, and therefore it was always the case that this rapist would rape, and therefore you should find him not guilty.
Click to expand...

No, he's saying god almighty, the ultimate dispenser of all justice, deemed that the rape occur and thus the rape must have been just.

Of course this only works if she gets pregnant . . . so all you aspiring rapists out there better figure out your victim's menstrual cycle before you strike.
Ugh. That is creepiest most disgusting thing I've ever written.
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Laugh it up you guys, Rasmussen had Romney ahead nationally this morning

Which is bad news for obama

Also, diablos, isn't the storm THIS weekend and not in 12 days? Are you cray?
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Y2Kev said:
Laugh it up you guys, Rasmussen had Romney ahead nationally this morning

Which is bad news for obama

Also, diablos, isn't the storm THIS weekend and not in 12 days? Are you cray?
Click to expand...
That's nice, you think Diablos takes facts into consideration.
 
S

StopMakingSense

Member
Y2Kev said:
Laugh it up you guys, Rasmussen had Romney ahead nationally this morning

Which is bad news for obama

Also, diablos, isn't the storm THIS weekend and not in 12 days? Are you cray?
Click to expand...

Check out the hurricane thread. The modeling for the storm hitting is currently NUTS and unprecidented and could easily cripple NE for well over a week. (I don't think it will affect the race, though)
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
Y2Kev said:
Also, diablos, isn't the storm THIS weekend and not in 12 days? Are you cray?
Click to expand...
I think he's implying that it'll do so much damage that power companies will still be out fixing it through election day.

Or something.

To be fair, that recent derecho did leave the DC metro area pretty bad. Took us ages to get our power back.
 
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