THANK YOU God.
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Some of yall need to look past that tweet btw. Yall attacking the tweets and not the actual topic and getting hurt
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Post-Women's March: white women, working class, and people might need to reflect
- Thread starter Messofanego
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Some of yall need to look past that tweet btw. Yall attacking the tweets and not the actual topic and getting hurt
sturgboski
Member
Wait, didnt Trump do better with African Americans than Romney? Didnt Hillary garner less African American votes than Obama? So should no one have marched based off the logic of the tweets in the OP? Or what about those who decided "fuck it I am not going to vote and hope for the best" who then marched? I am really confused.
Night Angel
Member
Applying statistics that relate to a general population to a small subset of people in a very specific location gathered for a specific purpose generally doesn't work out. The people marching aren't a simple random sample of the population, so assuming their voting habits based on those statistics is a terrible assumption. Which is why your post is being met with incredulity.
It would be like assuming 90% of people eat meat at a vegan foods convention.
Then why was the photograph framed the way it was? That is no longer a statistical point, and is now singling out the women in the background of that photo.
And you have zero idea who they are. They could be LGBTQ, Jewish, immigrants, rape survivors. They could be biracial and you have no fucking idea. They could have biracial children and BLM could be incredibly salient in their daily lives.
The issue is not pointing out that white people elected Donald Trump. That is a truism, and one that I am ashamed of.
Framing the photo is a means of taking agency away from the individual and it's counterproductive bullshit.
I think this is a really good point when it comes to stuff like this.
Generally speaking, there are a shit ton of people who are more moderate about stuff. But it's the most extreme opinions that are the most "viral", because they piss people off and stuff that makes people angry gets shared more than stuff that makes people happy. That makes it easy for the actions of a small handful to seem to represent a much larger whole.
It's stupid to allow a few images to overshadow the reality that close to 5 million people around the world marched together for a common cause on Saturday. It would also be stupid to allow the success of the march to blind us to the fact that there's still a lot of work to be done for women and men of all races, creeds, and orientations.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
I'm sorry, I thought your post was talking down on people who didn't march.
DragonKnight
Member
This is kinda how im feeling. Its true but now isnt the time.
Did you vote for not Trump? Did you try to convince people to vote for not Trump? Then why are you upset when over half of white women and men who voted, voted for Trump?
Ravensmash
Member
That's been done.
Its 2017, election was last year.
I've never seen anything like Saturday in terms of protest in my lifetime. Push that, not worrying about what is done and inaugurated.
plagiarize
Banned
I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Everyone is susceptible to embracing their own non-reality as well. We're all humans. Like, the large number of Democrats who were completely convinced that Trump is toast all the way into November. Whoopsie.
White feminism had this mindset throughout its first wave and, arguably, still struggles with this problem even until today. This tweet points that out, however inelegant it may be.
TurnipFritters
Member
The framing of the photo is pretty bad, tbh, because it's also reinforcing some misogynistic bs that the left is supposed to be better than (heh women and their selfies!!)
Yeah, the tweet is pretty dumb but some random dude's dumb tweet doesn't really deserve the level of scrutiny it's getting here.
Okay, it is stil likely that of the 2.5+ million who marched, a lot of em ain't gonna be out voting.
Obliterator
Member
This is exactly what happens when you double down and base your entire party on identity politics. Each group feels oppressed in some way (here's a shocker so do low income white families) and it becomes a constant us vs them.
The Democratic party needs to come out with a message of "We don't care who you are we are here to help you". If your white, if your a person of color, if your straight, if your LGBT, if your a male, a female, anything. We are the party to push for general human rights and a better way of life.
This focus on constant who to blame and who to be angry at is a really poor one.
So talking to Trump supporting relatives is going to have a 100% effective conversion rate? Not to mention most of the women in these marches likely don't know any Trump supporters in their social circles or workplace, never mind their family life. It's a completely unrealistic connection and responsibility to place on these people simply because they are white.
Aaronology
Member
You are not the first person in this thread who has implied the disagreements here are stemming from an inability to empathize with minorities and/or that people who are expressing issues with the sign/tweet in the OP are white. Please stop, and try exhibiting some of the same self reflection you're asking others to display.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
You mean the way some posters keep ignoring the one problem depicted in the OP?
Problem: lumping together people as wrong-doers based on skin color is the very definition of racism. Hint: every other white female voter voted against Trump. Particularly, those at the march very likely so.
From there onwards: fracturing the progressive populace that would otherwise naturally vote against Trump only makes things worse.
OP derailed his own thread. If you can find a better way to frame the discussion, you should probably make a new thread. Might get better responses.
The implicit assumption in these instructions to "listen" is that a person who disagrees with a minority must not have listened, therefore they need to listen so that they would agree, because you can't listen and not agree.
People have been heard. People are entitled to feel and believe what they feel and believe. People are not automatically correct because they felt feelings and had beliefs.
That's exactly what my mom took from it talking to her afterwards. After so much pessimism, hopelessness and inwardness, she was glowing with renewed enthusiasm to resist and a sense of community with others that they're not alone in troubled times. And she ain't white either.
If some want to turn that positive action into broad racial divides and critiques on their allies, whatever. People are allowed to be mad, even irrationally so. But "talk to the white women Trump voters and convince them they're wrong" is a disingenuous way to translate the smug commentary. Like there's a white woman club card that enables you to talk sense to stupid, family or not.
people getting saltified over that pic and tweet need to remember that the dangerous focus needs to be on getting a working majority to address Congress and Trump. Not feeling good about ourselves because we stood up to him on his Inauguration weekend, or wigging out over "dissension" in the ranks.
like it or not, Dems are in for some gut check time, and some changes. trust is over. The unverified voting blocs did what they wanted. People feeling fragile over the facts of who voted for Trump should get over that. Large numbers voted way outside of the mainstream against their own interests based on nothing but promises and novelty. So reminding us how we will not win elections if we don't work and vote together isn't helpful. And telling us that reflection on just exactly who and what the Democrats are is counterproductive? Save your words, they fall on deaf ears.
I think the time is now. not 2018.
Obliterator
Member
Outstanding post.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
The point is the majority of white women voted for trump
We need to figure out why
We need to figure out why
I just come to accept it at this point.
I feel these conflicts within the Democratic party are not going away anytime soon.
Messofanego
Banned
That would be true if the march was done in only blue states, but it was done in plenty of red states. So I'm guessing people all over who participated in the march know Trump supporting relatives and acquaintances.
Night Angel
Member
celljean89
Neo Member
I don't understand when POC tell some white people about certain issues/problems, some white people get offended. Like POC have to put our issues in the back, to please white people feelings. Like there is no history that will explain what's happening. You know white people could just listen, and if you have questions, be respectful. I do the same when it comes to women rights and other groups rights.
I think if this divide white people from minorities on the left, like some people here said, then I guess you was never an ally to begin with. Which is fucking sad, I been through a lot because of my skin color. But I don't complain when women or another POC tell me their issues with certain groups. I listen and maybe it takes me awhile to understand, but I listen.
Also a majority of white women threw minorities under the bus this past election. It's up to white Democrat voters and the Democrats politicians to get them back, not the minorities. I'm tired of being the person to build bridges, and also I don't see black people out their voting to hurt white people. I still feel and know that majority of white Americans don't give a shit about me, or they will put their pockets in front of me and people like me.
But people like me will be okay, because people like me have been through way worse. White Americans should listen and try understand. Or simply get butt hurt like few people on this forum.
I think if this divide white people from minorities on the left, like some people here said, then I guess you was never an ally to begin with. Which is fucking sad, I been through a lot because of my skin color. But I don't complain when women or another POC tell me their issues with certain groups. I listen and maybe it takes me awhile to understand, but I listen.
Also a majority of white women threw minorities under the bus this past election. It's up to white Democrat voters and the Democrats politicians to get them back, not the minorities. I'm tired of being the person to build bridges, and also I don't see black people out their voting to hurt white people. I still feel and know that majority of white Americans don't give a shit about me, or they will put their pockets in front of me and people like me.
But people like me will be okay, because people like me have been through way worse. White Americans should listen and try understand. Or simply get butt hurt like few people on this forum.
plagiarize
Banned
We no more know why the photo was framed that way than we know whether all the people in it voted or not. Certainly the person who called it 'photo of the year' candidate was trying to make the point you believe the person who took the photo was, but we don't know *their* intent.
Why do you think that you presume the worst about the person who framed the photo, and the best about the white women in it?
You have no idea who took the photo. You have no idea what point they were trying to make, or what may have happened to them in their life. You have no more idea of their context for taking something like this.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
The tweet is telling protestors to stay home. His followup comment doesn't contradict or step back from that.
It was a dumb tweet that torpedoed an otherwise worthwhile discussion. Own it.
Because I believe in individual agency, and that photo was framed in a way that was designed to place blame at the feet of these particular women who almost certainly did not vote for Trump.
The tone that I have seen this exact argument framed in over the course of the weekend has been aimed squarely at white people who went to the women's march. Inclusive of this photo. This is not like someone just posted "White people are the problem, and they elected Donald Trump". That is true. The claims that white people put their economic fears above racism and xenophobia is true. But, the second you put someone in the background of the photo or direct it sharply at a particular group of people you don't know you switch from having a argument about issues in our society to putting blame on someone specifically.
It is a way to delegitamize the genuine upset and anger that these women (and men) feel about what is happening to their country and place the blame for what happened at their feet.
My wife is the daughter of immigrants, but is white. Her best friend is the daughter of immigrants and is muslim, but looks increadibly white. Same with my cousin. Same with two of my trans friends that you would out of hand dismiss as Cis-gendered white women.
Making presumptions about people based on their outward appearance is never ok.
Pretty much, in my day to day interactions with people, progressive minded individuals are far less likely to vote than conservatives because of bullshit like "I don't agree with 10 percent to 20 percent of the progressive candidates can views so I won't vote even though I don't agree with 90 percent of the conservative candidates views. Liberals have fantasy candidates that don't exist and refuse to be pragmatic. Hell, we see it all the time on GAF.
plagiarize
Banned
It's going to be a much higher conversion rate than minorities could achieve by trying to talk to them.
That's the point.
Indeed
MistakenMobius
Member
TurnipFritters
Member
It's the racism and anti-abortion stance.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Oh yay, more dividing.
So what really got you was the framing of the photo? That's it? That's a problem. If the entire message is lost because you take issue with the framing of the photo, that's how we get here.
plagiarize
Banned
I don't think he was literally suggesting that people should have physically stood in front of mirrors all day on Saturday.
That may be true, but that still doesn't make it even close to fair to basically rant at all white people.
So what are we supposed to do? Move to the mid-west and make it our life's goal? Personally I don't know a single Trump supporter in my life, so I'm not sure what's expected of me.
CountAntonius
Member
Race, economic anxiety and other issues aside I think we have forgotten in this election that many many people in this country will always vote Republican.
I am making the assumption that the photographer is a competent person and didn't include the 4 women in Uggz taking selfies and smiling by accident when the subject matter of his shot is in the lower 25% of the frame.
I could be wrong and they are randomly pointing a camera and don't know how to frame it, but it's either a very well framed shot accidentally or they knew precisely what they were doing.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
UncleSporky
Member
This was something mentioned earlier in the thread that I think is a really good point, aside from the discussion about what helps and doesn't help and alienates people and whether they were really allies if they feel alienated etc.
Fake allies are almost as good as real allies, and can even potentially be turned into real allies.
Who cares if they go home and drink their wine and later don't attend the next Black Lives Matter march? They went to this march.
History will not remember the kind of individuals who took part in the march. It will instead remember that Donald Trump took presidential office, and a few days later a shitload of people came out to march in protest, in favor of the rights of women and others, to signal they weren't giving up without a fight.
Imagine if weeding out worked. Imagine if the perfect test was available, and anyone who didn't fully support you could be marked and excluded. The only white people who remain are the introspective ones who see the sign and feel not anger but humility, and are in complete agreement about how they need to conduct themselves. The only women who remain are the ones who voted for Hillary, and Trump voters, independents and nonvoters are forced to go home. Most men aren't true allies either, they're really just there hoping to hook up with women for being seen as sensitive to their cause.
So then history remembers:
"Donald Trump took office; a protest the next day saw fewer people in attendance than even his dismal inauguration turnout"
I mean yeah, maybe the numbers are padded by imperfect individuals. But you can still use those numbers. You can say "holy shit, look how many of us there are, we could really accomplish something." Maybe the fake allies will feel empowered and exhilarated and graduate into full blown allies.
Fake allies are almost as good as real allies, and can even potentially be turned into real allies.
Who cares if they go home and drink their wine and later don't attend the next Black Lives Matter march? They went to this march.
History will not remember the kind of individuals who took part in the march. It will instead remember that Donald Trump took presidential office, and a few days later a shitload of people came out to march in protest, in favor of the rights of women and others, to signal they weren't giving up without a fight.
Imagine if weeding out worked. Imagine if the perfect test was available, and anyone who didn't fully support you could be marked and excluded. The only white people who remain are the introspective ones who see the sign and feel not anger but humility, and are in complete agreement about how they need to conduct themselves. The only women who remain are the ones who voted for Hillary, and Trump voters, independents and nonvoters are forced to go home. Most men aren't true allies either, they're really just there hoping to hook up with women for being seen as sensitive to their cause.
So then history remembers:
"Donald Trump took office; a protest the next day saw fewer people in attendance than even his dismal inauguration turnout"
I mean yeah, maybe the numbers are padded by imperfect individuals. But you can still use those numbers. You can say "holy shit, look how many of us there are, we could really accomplish something." Maybe the fake allies will feel empowered and exhilarated and graduate into full blown allies.
Agreed. White people always seem to be the best at reaching other white people concerning sensitive topics.
We have literally had discussions about this very issue here on GAF. And they weren't framed the way the OP and photos were and I was all for having the conversations. I don't like the agenda behind this shit. Its transparent, and Im not gonna pretend its not there. NO ONE is saying the issue isn't worth discussion, so miss me with the "forest for the trees" nonsense. Im saying be genuine with your approach to the topic and you will get the discourse you claim to desire.
Isn't the framing of the photo the whole point? To grab the attention of white women? Otherwise, wouldn't the photo be cropped to only feature the woman with the sign?
Lol you can't be serious.
ArchedThunder
Banned
That's a single type of racism.
The idea that minorities can't be racist is only damaging race relations more.
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