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[Crocodile]

So I just want to make sure I understand the gist of this thread.

A significant number of posters in here are upset because three women who are impossible to identify and those cannot be traced back as individuals maybe/might've been implied to be Trump voters and not just used as generic stand-ins to highlight a truth about the voting patterns of White Women overall and the decades long friction between Women of Color and White Women within the feminist movement? We are more upset about this and how it might turn off allies or is "why Trump won" and less concerned about the very real frustrations and sense of betrayal this Black woman is expressing and other people, even other White people, feel? How their lives will be made worse by Trump? We are more interested in yelling "INFIGHTING" than figuring out why White Women fell in line for Trump and how to change that moving forward?

I just want to be clear on all of this. Is this how we are rolling right now?

 

[Adam_Vania]

if there are going to be these massive protests then there are going to be people there who hold a lot of views that you don't necessarily agree with. this is ok. particularly for marginalized voices it is important that they get represented, even if you feel icky about it, and in the long run being in their presence and perhaps knowing how they honestly feel will foster a deeper connection, making that protest experience that much more meaningful. personally i can't see the value in trying to get less people to show up to a march but they are free to express their opinions.

 

[Plum]

I'm not commenting on the photo or tweet. Just that I disagree with you on what racism entails. Power and attitude.

No matter what definition you subscribe to, it shouldn't be an automatic reason for why any discrimination against white people (i.e. generalizing a physical majority because a voting minority did something bad) shouldn't be called out or criticized. Semantics shouldn't be an excuse for shitty behaviour.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

That tweet and that image are some stupid shit. 53% voted for him, the other 47% didn't. Why wouldn't the women in these marches be in the 47%? This is a distraction that's just causing more division. Women are human beings, they make mistakes, they have faults, they're just as stupid as men sometimes. To say all women have to reflect, man fuck that nonsense. You only learn if you want to learn, and for some people, it's trial by fire. If some of the 53% of women realized they made a mistake after the election they have every right to go out and protest and want things to change.

The only people that need to reflect here are navel gazing pseudo-intellectuals whose only platform for "change" is a fucking tweet.

"Maybe UR the problem, think about that one?"

Fuck off.

The tweet and image was pointed towards white women.

 

[QisTopTier]

How?

Are these serious post? Would you have preferred he said racial hatred instead of racism? Like I really don't see how that's eye rolling or a "how" question?

If a white dude hates a black dude because his skin color that's racist

If a black dude hate a asian dude because he's asian that's racist

If an asian dude hates someone who is hispanic they are hispanic that's racist

and if a black dude hates a white dude because he is white thats racist.

It's not rocket science

 

[Cipherr]

If you made a thread "Why did 51% of white women vote for Trump?" I guarantee you will have answers up to your ears.

Its been discussed but only in bits and pieces in threads and PoliGAF. Its a fantastic topic, I just resent how it was presented here. Wrapping it the way OP did ensures that folks would spend more time attacking allies IMO rather than discussing the core.

Full Frontal with Samantha Bee - White people fucked up
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1311645

What Can Democrats Do To Appeal To White Women?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1312911

NYT: White Resentment on the Night Shift at Walmart
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1329540


It could use a laser focused thread, but damn, don't poison the entire well from jump man.

 

[D i Z]

For an event that is supposed to expose privilege and hold people accountable for the troubles of ours times, It's so typical that there are automatic zones of people to which these goals do not apply.
Next, when we finally get around to really kicking the asses of the relatives of Trump voters for not doing what they could to elevate understanding and reason ( like they should have been doing for everyday in accordance with their "values") because of "issues", we'll find deflections for those people too.

"Allies" and this coalition do not exist when people pick and choose when and on what terms they decide to show up.

If you aren't rounding up the people in your own court, then you are failing. Do better. White people, you need to do better, and you know it.

 

[not psycho]

Obama got called a "race baiter" by people for pointing out the very real systemic racism. Cold hard factual statements of historical events were now "just attempts to stir people up". The typical "I'm not responsible for slavery because I didn't exist then but I'm sure as fuck going to partake in the benefits of that event that exist to the day" "let's just all get along and not yell" quote progressive unquote

All true, but it isn't clear that Clinton had any easier time convincing those same people. They never believed she was the least bit genuine on racial issues in the first place.

And don't call it "white fragility". I have every right to be mad for being lumped in with the action of people that I loath and vehemently have opposed my entire life.

"You may feel a slight sting. That's pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts. It never helps. You fight through that shit."


Why is the word "fragility" so personally insulting? Is the idea that racial issues can be painful for white people to think about really so insulting?

Fight through it. It is natural to feel bad about the association with horrible people. But don't get mad at the ones bring up true statistics.

 

[Koodo]

People also need to stop viewing the protest of minorities through a lens of partisanship.

"They're not helping us unite as Democrats to stop the Republicans" is woefully missing the point of why a minority is usually protesting in the first place. Unless it's specifically at a partisan rally, these protests are usually about survival. Granted, these requests tend to lean more Democrat than Republican, but in no way is the intention partisan at its core – minorities merely want people, anyone, to stop treating them like shit.

 

[DarkKyo]

As a male minority, what bothers me about the women's march is that it places the female gender's concerns vis-à-vis men as being equal to male and female minority's concerns vis-à-vis white people. And that's disingenuous. Promoting understanding between races is the singularly most important, difficult, and complex issue of our times. It's insulting and childish to behave as if a white woman's concerns are equivalent to a black man's. They're not.

That's something I agree with. If it was the first big protest event against Trump it really should have sounded more inclusive from the start. While it's true that a myriad of different views and causes were marched for that day, calling it a "woman's march" from the very start almost sets up people's expectations that other perspectives and causes are secondary from day one of Trump's reign.

 

[theignoramus]

Police racism has an entire group that has held multiple major, televised protests trying to stop it. How is that not a "massive level of support"?

The police show up to those protests in riot gear looking to intimidate and arrest people. Theyre not remotely cowed by them and neither are the local prosecutors.

 

[Gutek]

Most important thing right now is to get Trump out of office. Questioning ourselves will not help, but divide.

Let's get this done first.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Its been discussed but only in bits and pieces in threads and PoliGAF. Its a fantastic topic, I just resent how it was presented here. Wrapping it the way OP did ensures that folks would spend more time attacking allies IMO rather than discussing the core.

Full Frontal with Samantha Bee - White people fucked up
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1311645

What Can Democrats Do To Appeal To White Women?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1312911

NYT: White Resentment on the Night Shift at Walmart
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1329540


It could use a laser focused thread, but damn, don't poison the entire well from jump man.

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[Abounder]

People also need to stop viewing the protest of minorities through a lens of partisanship.

"They're not helping us unite as Democrats to stop the Republicans" is woefully missing the point of why a minority is usually protesting in the first place. Unless it's specifically at a partisan rally, these protests are usually about survival. Granted, these requests tend to lean more Democrat than Republican, but in no way is the intention partisan at its core – minorities merely want people, anyone, to stop treating them like shit.

Word. Protests are about getting attention for your agendas, they are not a zerg hivemind on the same side. It's about posting inconvient truths even, or especially, if it gets white people mad. Just look at how divided the camps are in the Dems and Reps for another example, the unity arguments are missing the point completely

 

[Sunster]

Are these serious post? Would you have preferred he said racial hatred instead of racism? Like I really don't see how that's eye rolling or a "how" question?

If a white dude hates a black dude because his skin color that's racist

If a black dude hate a asian dude because he's asian that's racist

If an asian dude hates someone who is hispanic they are hispanic that's racist

and if a black dude hates a white dude because he is white thats racist.

It's not rocket science

you are describing prejudice.

 

[Plum]

The police show up to those protests in riot gear looking to intimidate and arrest people. Theyre not remotely cowed by them and neither are the local prosecutors.

How does that diminish the fact that BLM and their cause has garnered massive, massive support and is, in itself, a pretty major protest group running today? Unless you're talking about political support but, in that case, I don't see many in politics today coming out in favour of dropping the bathroom bill.

 

[QisTopTier]

"You may feel a slight sting. That's pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts. It never helps. You fight through that shit."


Why is the word "fragility" so personally insulting? Is the idea that racial issues can be painful for white people to think about really so insulting?

Fight through it. It is natural to feel bad about the association with horrible people. But don't get mad at the ones bring up true statistics.

While statistics are important and can help paint a picture of what needs to be worked on, people that use said statistics to promote an US VS THEM mentality fuck shit up beyond belief

you are describing prejudice.

But at the end of the day why are you nitpicking word use and dodging the issue?

 

[voodoojohn]

That's something I agree with. If it was the first big protest event against Trump it really should have sounded more inclusive from the start. While it's true that a myriad of different views and causes were marched for that day, calling it a "woman's march" from the very start almost sets up people's expectations that other perspectives and causes are secondary from day one of Trump's reign.

I don't even think it should have sounded more inclusive. It just should have been about race, instead of about gender.

 

[plagiarize]

So I just want to make sure I understand the gist of this thread.

A significant number of posters in here are upset because three women who are impossible to identify and those cannot be traced back as individuals maybe/might've been implied to be Trump voters and not just used as generic stand-ins to highlight a truth about the voting patterns of White Women overall and the decades long friction between Women of Color and White Women within the feminist movement? We are more upset about this and how it might turn off allies or is "why Trump won" and less concerned about the very real frustrations and sense of betrayal this Black woman is expressing and other people, even other White people, feel? How their lives will be made worse by Trump? We are more interested in yelling "INFIGHTING" than figuring out why White Women fell in line for Trump and how to change that moving forward?

I just want to be clear on all of this. Is this how we are rolling right now?

That's what I'm getting from it. Oh, that and 'let's turn this into a conversation about those poor white people and all the racism they suffer from tweets like this, instead of looking into the much bigger issues that provoked tweets like this in the first place'.

 

[clockworkinyou]

Lmao he hasn't even posted since he made this garbage thread

He bounced

OP Just selectively posts responses showing that he has no idea what he was thinking when he made this thread.

 

[LionPride]

Better photo I guess

 

[Cesare Borgia]

How?

It belittles advances minorities have made by essentially suggesting none have any power or ability, ignores the reality that there is a minority middle class, etc. A basic example: a black business owner who refuses to hire an Arab man/woman because of racial prejudice. Is he racist? What about an Asian business owner who refuses to hire a black person because [insert racial prejudice]. Is he racist?

Of course those are specific examples, but you don't need power to be a racist.

 

[notworksafe]

you are describing prejudice.

if only there was a word for prejudice based on race

 

[lcbrus]

Is the anti-abortion a Christian issue for the most part (well it is I don't know I'm asking since it's rhetorical)? Like if you are white Christian women then being anti-abortion is likely to be super super high on your list? What's the breakdown of Christian white women?

nvm

 

[Skytylz]

you are describing prejudice.

You are arguing semantics.

Racism is pretty much always used to describe prejudice based on race. Maybe oppression was a component of it at one point, but that's not how it's used today. Language changes. It's a pointless argument anyways.

 

[DarkKyo]

I don't even think it should have sounded more inclusive. It just should have been about race, instead of about gender.

Oh. Uhhh, I guess I disagree then. I'm not saying that the problems faced by people of color aren't as severe as those of women in general(because for the most part they are much more severe), but it seems to me that everyone who wants to be on the side of acceptance and love need to band together against all the shit that Trump and the GOP want to put us through as a people. Societal regression encompasses both race and gender.

 

[Trey]

reaction:



blame the targeted community for putting in the oppressor rather than the ones that put him in and are not targeted by his policies



disown the negative while embracing the benefits of being white



it's so hard, I didn't get the instant results I'm used to being able to get due to my white privilege



gonna need blood and sweat and skin in the game in addition to dollars. as soon as you went home from the march, you were no longer actively engaged. POC are engaged 24/7. Whether they like it or not.



Because a lot of earlier feminists specifically excluded POC from the movement. They often promoted bans on interracial marriage and wanted suffrage only for white women. That didn't just disappear overnight.

and therefore we come back to the white fragility:



white people: collectively benefitting each other but absolutely hate being identified for being a collective that needs to work more to talk to other white people instead of pushing black people out in front of them and going "don't worry i'll spot you 10$"


"being lumped in" is what POC have to deal with from the white population CONSTANTLY. Having your identity removed is part and parcel of being non-white in this country and feeling like you've been betrayed or hurt by simply being addressed as part of the group you are is one of the literal examples of white fragility.

well said. I'll add on to it that it's quite weird that the tone of this thread plays into the point of the sign in the first place.

the overwhelming reaction is that this sign is disrespecting the women who did vote against trump, as she protests with them side by side. And the common refrain is that the sign, those tweets, and sentiments like them are why Trump will win...but apparently not the majority of white women voters voting against their own interests?

Because whether you take responsibility or action or any measure of self reflection - Trump is still the President based in large part to the voting of the white woman demographic. And black women will be disproportionately affected by Trump's policies, so in that regard their frustration is exceedingly understandable given how the exit pool data breaks down.

Obviously an individual can only do but so much. But it starts with conversations - tough ones - about who we are as a country. Certainly not this sort of reaction, where no attempt to understand were the spirit of this protest comes from; only in how it makes you feel.

If being confronted with the fact that a majority white women voters supported Trump is what will mitigate liberal allies, were they really down for what needs to be done?

 

[blu]

I'm not commenting on the photo or tweet. Just that I disagree with you on what racism entails. Power and attitude.

There's some serious logical fallacy in the above.
'If a man wants to hurt me that's their problem. If the man has a knife, that's my problem.'

No, sir. It's why they want to hurt me that defines them as racist.

Attitude based on race is the very definition of racism. The means are always found. 'When there's a will, there's a way.'

 

[QisTopTier]

Better photo I guess

A billion times better in multiple ways

 

[theignoramus]

I gave an example, but hey if you want to absolve yourself of all guilt of helping others while condemning everyone else regardless of whether those specific people are helping you or not be my guess. It doesn't make you any less of a hypocritical fool though. Also, I'm not sure what I'm "feigning outrage about", I'm not mad in any sense but you seem to enjoy assumptions.

Hell no, were not playing that shit.
You made a point to come in here and talk slick shit about Black males, own your shit.

 

[UncleSporky]

"You may feel a slight sting. That's pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts. It never helps. You fight through that shit."


Why is the word "fragility" so personally insulting? Is the idea that racial issues can be painful for white people to think about really so insulting?

Fight through it. It is natural to feel bad about the association with horrible people. But don't get mad at the ones bring up true statistics.

There are ways to discuss things that doesn't require one party to fight through it.

Like you are literally saying "I am going to intentionally insult your pride now without seeking for a way not to, and if you pass the test then you get to be an ally."

"I'm saying things that I don't think should hurt you, and if it does hurt you, fuck you I'm not going to examine the way I said it at all, grow a thicker skin."

In a world where people say nasty things all the time about LGBT people and when called out on it, say "oh, grow a thicker skin."

Yeah, that's just their pride screwing with them. They need to fight past that...

 

[Aaronology]

The message itself is still meaningful. More white women voted for Trump than not. Fact. While i do not like the photo itself. The message ain't lost on me, I understand what is being said. I won't let it stop me from understanding what is being said.

I'm a little bothered to see you and others falling back on "it's just statistics" when I see that same sort of disingenuous rhetoric on FreeRepublic, Voat, Breitbart and Stormfront every day. If a white man showed up at a BLM rally holding a sign protesting black on black violence and citing legitimate data he would immediately be marked as an antagonist. You would not for a second believe this individual actually cared about black lives lost by intraracial violence. Context matters, and trying to mitigate the offensiveness of the sign/tweet in the OP feels incredibly hypocritical and dishonest to me. Attacking women who have very likely already done (and continue to do) everything in their power to protest Donald Trump is counter productive and pretty stupid, and I don't see why you have to defend that behavior or go to lengths attempting to justify it.


Edit:

While statistics are important and can help paint a picture of what needs to be worked on, people that use said statistics to promote an US VS THEM mentality fuck shit up beyond belief.

Aye.

 

[stephen08]

Better photo I guess

Can you please explain what this photo conveys that the table by itself does not?

 

[Cagey]

All true, but it isn't clear that Clinton had any easier time convincing those same people. They never believed she was the least bit genuine on racial issues in the first place.





"You may feel a slight sting. That's pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts. It never helps. You fight through that shit."


Why is the word "fragility" so personally insulting? Is the idea that racial issues can be painful for white people to think about really so insulting?

Fight through it. It is natural to feel bad about the association with horrible people. But don't get mad at the ones bring up true statistics.

Yawn inducing pop culture reference aside, people tend not to like being called soft or thin skinned or delicate or overly sensitive, all insulting things that "fragile" implies when used for a person.

This is known and subsequently ignored because otherwise we'd have to admit the term white fragility has such a fun element of insult to it, doubly fun when a negative reaction to be called out for exhibiting it lets the other person kick-start the circular "dohhhh but you crying about being called fragile that's white fragility" argument.

Why admit enjoying insulting people? That makes us bad. Let's pretend we don't instead.

 

[voodoojohn]

Oh. Uhhh, I guess I disagree then. I'm not saying that the problems faced by people of color aren't as severe as those of women in general(because for the most part they are much more severe), but it seems to me that everyone who wants to be on the side of acceptance and love need to band together against all the shit that Trump and the GOP want to put us through as a people. Societal regression encompasses both race and gender.

Sure, we can band together. But as a white woman at these events, you should feel you are here for your black brothers and sisters, first. Then, for yourself.

 

[Lesath]

Most important thing right now is to get Trump out of office. Questioning ourselves will not help, but divide.

Let's get this done first.

Okay, so let's have a conversation: the feeling of resentment that some POC have against white women as a group for enabling the election of Trump is very real. All this talk about "let's not fight amongst ourselves" isn't going to make it go away. I am going to argue that "let's ignore your grievances" is also in itself divisive. What is your solution?

 

[Gutek]

Okay, so let's have a conversation: the feeling of resentment that some POC have against white women as a group for enabling the election of Trump is very real. All this talk about "let's not fight amongst ourselves" isn't going to make it go away. I am going to argue that "let's ignore your grievances" is also in itself divisive. What is your solution?

Get rid of Trump with the help of white women and give them a chance to redeem themselves that way.

 

[LionPride]

Can you please explain what this photo conveys that the table by itself does not?

Something that doesn't say, this lays at the feet of white people as a whole, I guess

So I just want to make sure I understand the gist of this thread.

A significant number of posters in here are upset because three women who are impossible to identify and those cannot be traced back as individuals maybe/might've been implied to be Trump voters and not just used as generic stand-ins to highlight a truth about the voting patterns of White Women overall and the decades long friction between Women of Color and White Women within the feminist movement? We are more upset about this and how it might turn off allies or is "why Trump won" and less concerned about the very real frustrations and sense of betrayal this Black woman is expressing and other people, even other White people, feel? How their lives will be made worse by Trump? We are more interested in yelling "INFIGHTING" than figuring out why White Women fell in line for Trump and how to change that moving forward?

I just want to be clear on all of this. Is this how we are rolling right now?

Yep

 

[QisTopTier]

Sure, we can band together. But as a white woman at these events, you should feel you are here for your black brothers and sisters, first. Then, for yourself.

Or maybe they should feel like they are there for everyone equally?

Edit: The point of the march ya know?

 

[FortuneFaded]

Sure, we can band together. But as a white woman at these events, you should feel you are here for your black brothers and sisters, first. Then, for yourself.

At a Women's March, you should put men first?

 

[Ravensmash]

The message itself is still meaningful. More white women voted for Trump than not. Fact. While i do not like the photo itself. The message ain't lost on me, I understand what is being said. I won't let it stop me from understanding what is being said.

What it says is irrelevant to the current context. It's a picture with a view point attached.

People need to start focusing on the now, rather than the has been.

A protest movement does not rise through deflection and hyperanalysis. You grab on to what's happening now and progress through that.

The fact that a large demographic voted one way should not be ignored, but it shouldn't be a focal point of a campaign - nor should it detract from the passion that's burning in this instance.

Fuck, the opposite side is proof of that!

 

[stephen08]

Okay, so let's have a conversation: the feeling of resentment that some POC have against white women as a group for enabling the election of Trump is very real. All this talk about "let's not fight amongst ourselves" isn't going to make it go away. I am going to argue that "let's ignore your grievances" is also in itself divisive. What is your solution?

Grievances with a group based on race alone is the cause of a lot of this in the firstplace. If we're going to take the stance that racism is wrong we have to be the ones to stop it. I get being mad at a group of people who have been oppressive but when they start coming to your side attacking them for being part of the group isn't going to help at all.

 

[devilhawk]

It belittles advances minorities have made by essentially suggesting none have any power or ability, ignores the reality that there is a minority middle class, etc. A basic example: a black business owner who refuses to hire an Arab man/woman because of racial prejudice. Is he racist? What about an Asian business owner who refuses to hire a black person because [insert racial prejudice]. Is he racist?

Of course those are specific examples, but you don't need power to be a racist.

Your examples actually meet his criteria. The business owner actually holds power and can therefore be racist according to the power definition. Just like a lone white kid being subjected to racism attending an inner city school. Many advocates of this definition commonly forget or dismiss this application of power in microcosms.

 

[chromatic9]

It's not inconceivable that from the millions of white women who voted for Clinton that whatever the number was at the marches of white women, 500k 700k 1.5m? that those were impassioned people following through with their vote. I can only imagine a few stragglers who perhaps kept quiet to their friends they voted trump and ended up going. People who march are highly motivated, most people don't bother.

Stupid analogy time but if I run a poll of who likes marmite and 50% say they hate it then later I do a marmite giveaway with 2.5 million cueing up in the stores across the land I'm going to assume nearly all are there because they like marmite. People who don't want it aren't going to waste time or try to sell a jar. You're going to get a bunch of people who like marmite and can be bothered to cue up for short time.

 

[Aaronology]

Okay, so let's have a conversation: the feeling of resentment that some POC have against white women as a group for enabling the election of Trump is very real. All this talk about "let's not fight amongst ourselves" isn't going to make it go away. I am going to argue that "let's ignore your grievances" is also in itself divisive. What is your solution?

How does attacking the women who are actively opposing Donald Trump address your grievances with the women who voted for him? Explain that one to me.

 

[Dead Man]

Sure, we can band together. But as a white woman at these events, you should feel you are here for your black brothers and sisters, first. Then, for yourself.

Is this post for real? At a womens march?

 

[benicillin]

Okay, so let's have a conversation: the feeling of resentment that some POC have against white women as a group for enabling the election of Trump is very real. All this talk about "let's not fight amongst ourselves" isn't going to make it go away. I am going to argue that "let's ignore your grievances" is also in itself divisive. What is your solution?

I guess I don't understand why there is resentment against white women as a group when the divide on how the votes fell were affected by religion and education as much as they were about race.

 

[Trey]

What it says is irrelevant to the current context. It's a picture with a view point attached.

People need to start focusing on the now, rather than the has been.

A protest movement does not rise through deflection and hyperanalysis. You grab on to what's happening now and progress through that.

The fact that a large demographic voted one way should not be ignored, but it shouldn't be a focal point of a campaign - nor should it detract from the passion that's burning in this instance.

Fuck, the opposite side is proof of that!

it was one sign and a few tweets amidst millions of participants. It's not like the DNC are sending people newsletters in the mail titled "The White Women Are At It Again."

I think in all things we can always do better, doubly so when the stakes are this high. We cannot discount how people voted, and why.

 

[Seiryoden]

This is painfully reminiscent of the finger-pointing that followed California Prop. 8.

 

[stephen08]

Something that doesn't say, this lays at the feet of white people as a whole, I guess

So you're saying that the photo is meant to show that not all white people voted for Trump and are against the cause? I find that hard to believe given the surrounding tweets on the other photo in the OP.