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[Althane]

I really need to make a programme or a game and have part of the EULA state that whomever buys the game agrees to the EULA and that they are my personal slaves.

Hmmm... Sounds promising.

Trying for world domination?

*hopes it's a good game, at least. =P*

 

[charlequin]

You mean just like the EULA you agreed to when you purchased the PS3?

As has been hashed out quite a few times in this thread already, there is a significant chance that any EULA that may have been present on tombstone's PS3 cannot in fact legally adhere to him or bind his actions in any way (depending primarily on where he lives.)

Yes, but is there any law that says the software always has to be compatible?

There are requirements that products that are sold indeed provide the features and functionality with which they are advertised. The specifics of how applicable these laws are to this particular issue are, like many of the other related topics raised in this thread, legally ambiguous -- there are almost no explicitly-written laws that cover such situations, and a paucity of case law.

Regardless, I want you to think about this very carefully.

"Is there any law that prevents Company X from engaging in misleading marketing practice Y?" Depending on what practice Y is, often no, there isn't.

"Is there any law that prevents Company X from selling knowingly shoddy hardware that will expire shortly after their limited warranty so as to lock customers into repeat purchases?" Generally speaking, no.

In what way does the potential on-a-technicality-legality of such practices translate into a moral imperative to defend the ethics of the decision to pursue them?

 

[Raist]

WOW!

*shovels popcorn in mouth*

This is REALLY good!

I don't think you guys get it yet, hahahaha. There's more to the blog post than just the date of the firmware's release.

None of you are looking in the right place. I mean... it's so obvious.

That's all I'm saying.

Hmm... the fct that this 3.21 FW will come before the 3.20 one which supposedly is the one adding 3D output?

 

[racerx]

Not the same thing on so many levels. You bought the software as is and any updates are optional and won't break using the software. Typically, they don't cut out an OS midway through the product life of software. If anything they would do that in the next version like going from Photoshop CS3 to Photoshop CS4 in which you are required to buy the newer product if you want to move on. At that point you would know that there is an OS issue and are given the choice to move up or not. Your analogy is way off but if they did what you just said, you can be sure the company could be sued.

No, I disagree. The analogy works. The firmware update doesn't break anything, it just prevents you from using new features - such as new games. all your old games work.


There have been updates to OSes whether the mac or PC that broke old software. Most unintentional, others intentionally.

 

[Alex]

I really need to make a programme or a game and have part of the EULA state that whomever buys the game agrees to the EULA and that they are my personal slaves, and they are under a legal contract for them to forward their banking information to me so I can withdraw all of their (my) money.

I think it's been done. It's probably in the WoW EULA. Along with the ability to evict you and build a railroad over your land.

 

[itxaka]

I really need to make a programme or a game and have part of the EULA state that whomever buys the game agrees to the EULA and that they are my personal slaves, and they are under a legal contract for them to forward their banking information to me so I can withdraw all of their (my) money.

*Pages Wrath2x

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

It only DID everything!

 

[racerx]

I really need to make a programme or a game and have part of the EULA state that whomever buys the game agrees to the EULA and that they are my personal slaves, and they are under a legal contract for them to forward their banking information to me so I can withdraw all of their (my) money.

I know your being facetious, but for contracts to be enforceable they have to be legal. Slavery is illegal, thus your EULA is illegal.

 

[Marty Chinn]

No, I disagree. The analogy works. The firmware update doesn't break anything, it just prevents you from using new features - such as new games. all your old games work.


There have been updates to OSes whether the mac or PC that broke old software. Most unintentional, others intentionally.

The PC method doesn't apply here because in the scenario of a PC, software isn't licensed and in many cases the company will be obligated to some degree to supply a fix in such an event. Microsoft has no obligation to the thousands of software out there because none of them are sanctioned by MS.

However, when it comes to PlayStation games, every single one of them is sanctioned by Sony and every developer has no choice but to go through them. Sony then has a responsibility to allow the playability of software of the device on the console as that is the feature functionality that they sold to a consumer.

There is a drastic difference between the two models. Do you think it would be ok on day 1 Sony offered an update that prevented you from playing all future games? You bought the system on the premise that you could play the available games then, but no guarentee you could play future games? That sure wouldn't fly but you seem ok with the fact that Sony could cut off game support at any time.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I think it's been done. It's probably in the WoW EULA. Along with the ability to evict you and build a railroad over your land.

I should make sure the EULA says that anyone who even heard of the game/programme has agreed to the EULA and better pony up their cash monies.


I'll be RICH!

 

[Macmanus]

Personally, I'm annoyed. I want the Other OS to be there. But I'm pretty sure that the removal of the Other OS is because of geohot's hack. If the Other OS remains, it's quite possible that with geohot's hack, hackers could compromise the ps3 and psn further. Some hackers, not all, could compromise trophies, maybe some would send out message bombs, maybe some could have cheats - like wall hacks, etc...

I don't want to play on a compromised network, so for the sake of consumer protection, sony needs to everything in it's ability to make sure the ps3 doesn't get hacked.

This logic is so beyond fucked up I don't even know where to begin.

So for the sake of consumer protection, Sony needs to remove features it gave the consumer.

What?

 

[cRIPticon]

I just wanted to get you clearly and officially on record as saying that Benjamin Heckendorn was unambiguously in the wrong morally for building a one-handed controller so that an injured Iraq war vet could continue to game after losing the use of his right hand.

Well, to be fair, the controller (which is awesome, BTW), in no way jeopardizes or, potentially, jeopardizes other Xbox 360s. It is not a threat to the software/hardware security model of XBox Live or the 360. The intentional hacking of the PS3 and revealing possible system and network exploits, enabled through the OtherOS feature, is not the same thing as modding a controller.

To be clear, I really have no issue with Sony doing this if it is going to make their service to us more secure. I understand why some may be upset, but it's really not that big of a deal, for THIS particular thing.

 

[shuri]

Other than for cell clusters (and lets face it, serious academia didnt give much of a fuck); what interesting ps3-linux-born creations are we going to lose with this?

I want serious answers, google is too bombed to give back legit answers..

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Well, to be fair, the controller (which is awesome, BTW), in no way jeopardizes or, potentially, jeopardizes other Xbox 360s. It is not a threat to the software/hardware security model of XBox Live or the 360. The intentional hacking of the PS3 and revealing possible system and network exploits, enabled through the OtherOS feature, is not the same thing as modding a controller.

To be clear, I really have no issue with Sony doing this if it is going to make their service to us more secure. I understand why some may be upset, but it's really not that big of a deal, for THIS particular thing.

It could. What if it was modified that it allowed such a high turbo to be enacted, that within a certain game it caused a buffer overflow allowing someone to gain access to the hypervisor?

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Other than for cell clusters (and lets face it, serious academia didnt give much of a fuck); what interesting ps3-linux-born creations are we going to lose with this?

I want serious answers, google is too bombed to give back legit answers..

Sounds like I can't use my PS3 for emulators, although I either use my HTPC or PS2 for that anyway.

 

[BocoDragon]

I really need to make a programme or a game and have part of the EULA state that whomever buys the game agrees to the EULA and that they are my personal slaves, and they are under a legal contract for them to forward their banking information to me so I can withdraw all of their (my) money.

"You can't break the shackles off, my dear... It's against the DMCA..."

 

[Raist]

There is no such distinction. If you believe there is such a distinction, you are mistaken. Every single thing that any electronic device does is a function of hardware and software working in concert. You can frame this change in exactly the same way: it reduces the functionality of your CELL processor (hardware) by preventing it from being used for one of its out-of-the-box functions (running Linux).

Well if you use this line of thinking I sure hope that you go for a war against every single software company out there that releases security patch, because even if it doesn't lock out a function it's going to prevent your CPU from functioning in a certain way for some lines of code.

I do not think it is going to tremendously help your argument to repeatedly admit that you're willing to side with the manufacturer over your fellow consumers just because you happen to not be inconvenienced this time around in particular.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I'm in the "it depends on context and the actual impact on consumers" camp, not the "any single move made by a company is 200% evil because they just want to screw consumers over omg let's start a revolution" camp.
And I'm not "siding with the manufacturer" (sounds like your typical line from someone who stands in the latter camp). I don't give a shit and I can see how that could piss people off, but I just think it's overreacting, especially given what the actual consequences of this particular decision are.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

"You can't break the shackles off, my dear... It's against the DMCA..."

You're right. I need to set up in Texas.

 

[jepjepjep]

Other than for cell clusters (and lets face it, serious academia didnt give much of a fuck); what interesting ps3-linux-born creations are we going to lose with this?

I want serious answers, google is too bombed to give back legit answers..

Here's a serious answer. What does ps3-linux-born creations have to do with anything?

They are removing a feature that they advertised at the time of sale. If I boot linux to browser the web, write a paper, run a file/print server, write a molecular dynamics simulation, etc. I am using this feature and it has value to me.

Does anyone think that the serious ps3 hackers are going to update their firmwares? How exactly does this feature removal make the platform more secure? The cat is already out of the bag.

 

[badcrumble]

I'm a bit surprised to see this devolve into overblown comparisons to slavery instead of Nazism, but I suppose Godwin's Law has its variations.

 

[Raist]

Does anyone think that the serious ps3 hackers are going to update their firmwares? How exactly does this feature removal make the platform more secure? The cat is already out of the bag.

Well if hackers do manage to find a way through security systems based on the OtherOS functions, it wouldn't work for the millions of people who will have updated their console because that function won't be available anymore. Of course, that won't work if a potential backdoor found through OtherOS hacks doesn't actually use the OtherOS to eventually work, but since hackers will be completely blind to any new changes brought by new FW, they'll be back to square one.

I guess a related question to yours would be: why would they remove OtherOS support other than for security reasons?

 

[racerx]

The PC method doesn't apply here because in the scenario of a PC, software isn't licensed and in many cases the company will be obligated to some degree to supply a fix in such an event. Microsoft has no obligation to the thousands of software out there because none of them are sanctioned by MS.

First, every time you install or use a pc / mac you are bound to the terms of the EULA. There is no getting around this fact. Whether the EULA or parts of it stand up in court, I don't know. And I'm not talking about the thousands of 3rd party software out there, I'm talking specifically about MS's OS.

However, when it comes to PlayStation games, every single one of them is sanctioned by Sony and every developer has no choice but to go through them. Sony then has a responsibility to allow the playability of software of the device on the console as that is the feature functionality that they sold to a consumer.

But sony does, you just have to update the software. You have to choose.

Again, where is there a law that says that old features can never be removed? If there was this law then MS wouldn't have been able to update the dashboard for the new experience (People 's old themes were lost in the new update).

 

[racerx]

This logic is so beyond fucked up I don't even know where to begin.

So for the sake of consumer protection, Sony needs to remove features it gave the consumer.

What?

Man, you're reaching far back. Sony responsibility is to keep psn secure and make sure cheaters don't exist. A hacked ps3 could lead to hackers to run wall-hack on their ps3s and thus allow rampant cheating to occur.

 

[grumble]

I still think this will be April Fools.

 

[Madman]

Does anyone think that the serious ps3 hackers are going to update their firmwares? How exactly does this feature removal make the platform more secure? The cat is already out of the bag.

Theoretically, removing it would at least prevent online cheaters even if the system is hacked by those who choose not to update.

 

[jonabbey]

Man, you're reaching far back. Sony responsibility is to keep psn secure and make sure cheaters don't exist. A hacked ps3 could lead to hackers to run wall-hack on their ps3s and thus allow rampant cheating to occur.

So detect the hacked systems and ban them.

Of course, they're not doing that, because their concern is not PSN, their concern is paid content on those systems.

PSN is just the stick.

 

[vag 2.0]

It's vastly overstated how useful running Linux on a ps3 is. Try a PPC distro if you have an old spare mac lying around - you're not going to find some amazing development environment or usable desktop. Packages just aren't maintained anymore - nobody gives a shit about the platform. In truth, you're going to be stuck with Firefox 3.01 or something and no flash plugin.

 

[Truespeed]

Well if hackers do manage to find a way through security systems based on the OtherOS functions, it wouldn't work for the millions of people who will have updated their console because that function won't be available anymore. Of course, that won't work if a potential backdoor found through OtherOS hacks doesn't actually use the OtherOS to eventually work, but since hackers will be completely blind to any new changes brought by new FW, they'll be back to square one.

I guess a related question to yours would be: why would they remove OtherOS support other than for security reasons?

That's not the point. They're removing the Other OS functionality to try and prevent any security vectors from being discovered, vis-à-vis the Other OS, and implementing these exploits in all PS3's including the slim. Right now the path of least resistance is the Other OS route so that's where everyone gravitates to when looking for an exploit. By removing this feature, you remove the facilitator and complicate things.

 

[Raist]

That's not the point. They're removing the Other OS functionality to try and prevent any security vectors from being discovered, vis-à-vis the Other OS, and implementing these exploits in all PS3's including the slim. Right now the path of least resistance is the Other OS route so that's where everyone gravitates to when looking for an exploit. By removing this feature, you remove the facilitator and complicate things.

Yes I know, I'm just saying that exploits found through OtherOS might not work on consoles that don't have this function anymore. And even if it happens to work, they might implement countermeasures that hackers won't be able to analyse through an OtherOS exploit, since in order to "see" these features they'd have to update their system, closing he only door they have.

Anyway. As I said earlier, why the hell would this update be numbered 3.21?

 

[Afrikan]

I still think this will be April Fools.

I can see it now....Geohot has a live stream showing his first true "hello world" demo....but right before he shows it...he turns to the camera rips off his shirt, to reveal a pic of

.
.
.
.
.
.
.

......with the footage on monitor showing "It only does Epic April Fools"


Geohot sold out months ago....this is all ONE BIG April fools.

 

[dakster]

GeoHot encouraging folks not to update.

Life will find...erm i mean he'll find a way :

http://geohotps3.blogspot.com/2010/03/dont-update.html

 

[Truespeed]

GeoHot encouraging folks not to update.

I thought his 15 minutes were up?

 

[XiaNaphryz]

GeoHot encouraging folks not to update.

Life will find...erm i mean he'll find a way :

http://geohotps3.blogspot.com/2010/03/dont-update.html

Posted several pages back. Keep up man!

 

[androvsky]

Anyway. As I said earlier, why the hell would this update be numbered 3.21?

Debug 3.20 has been floating around for a while, that's the one that adds 3D support (for games,iirc), and it's rare for debug firmwares to be out before retail versions (sounds backwards, I know). I think it's pretty clear they got close to releasing it before an exec decided to shit on linux users.

I'd be really surprised if 3.21 doesn't have 3D support. I'd also heard solid rumors that cross-game voice chat was delayed until the March update, but I don't know if Sony thought they'd have Premium PSN going by now.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Posted several pages back. Keep up man!

The post is now updated saying that CFW doesn't mean piracy.

 

[mre]

No, I disagree. The analogy works. The firmware update doesn't break anything, it just prevents you from using new features - such as new games. all your old games work.

So everyone that wants to keep Linux on their PS3 and be able to play, for example, MAG, will be able to do so?

 

[itxaka]

It's vastly overstated how useful running Linux on a ps3 is. Try a PPC distro if you have an old spare mac lying around - you're not going to find some amazing development environment or usable desktop. Packages just aren't maintained anymore - nobody gives a shit about the platform. In truth, you're going to be stuck with Firefox 3.01 or something and no flash plugin.

The fuck are you smoking?

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPCDownloads - Ubuntu 9.10 PPC, same version as available for x86 and x64

http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/support/installation/ydl6.2_ps3_guide.pdf - YDL, Centos based distro with business support.

 

[patsu]

Yes, clearly because I am in favour of consumers owning what they paid for I am also in favour of theft.

I am just pointing out that there are flip sides to everything, especially when taken to the extreme. IP laws have their purposes.

 

[Dead Prince]

i find this great that this idea popped up :lol http://share.blog.us.playstation.com/ideas/2010/03/29/easier-war-to-shift-to-ooslinux/#comments
http://share.blog.us.playstation.com/ideas/2010/03/29/delete-linux-os-without-reformat/

http://share.blog.us.playstation.com/ideas/2010/03/29/sony-should-arrest-geohot/
okay. this idea gets through but my shit doesn't? Fuck you Grace Chen.

 

[vag 2.0]

The fuck are you smoking?

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPCDownloads - Ubuntu 9.10 PPC, same version as available for x86 and x64

http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/support/installation/ydl6.2_ps3_guide.pdf - YDL, Centos based distro with business support.

That distros exist doesn't mean the platform is well supported or that the packages are as up to date/well maintained as the x86/x64 versions.

 

[Shaka]

This thread has so many shitty analogies it makes me want to cry.

 

[Massa]

That distros exist doesn't mean the platform is well supported or that the packages are as up to date/well maintained as the x86/x64 versions.

That's what Debian is for.

By the way they approved my idea. :lol
http://share.blog.us.playstation.com/ideas/2010/03/29/sony-should-add-back-linux-support-to-the-ps3/

89 votes in favor, 53 against as of now.

And to remind every one:

One of the most powerful things about the PS3 is the "Install Other OS" option.

Phil Harrison. I guess I was stupid enough to believe him.

Please be assured that SCE is committed to continue the support for previously sold models that have the "Install Other OS" feature and that this feature will not be disabled in future firmware releases.

This is from Geoff Levand, Sony's Linux/PS3 maintainer. I sincerely hope he still has a job.

The reasons are simple: The PS3 Slim is a major cost reduction involving many changes to hardware components in the PS3 design. In order to offer the OtherOS install, SCE would need to continue to maintain the OtherOS hypervisor drivers for any significant hardware changes – this costs SCE. One of our key objectives with the new model is to pass on cost savings to the consumer with a lower retail price. Unfortunately in this case the cost of OtherOS install did not fit with the wider objective to offer a lower cost PS3.

Turns out Sony saves money by not updating the hypervisor with every new update. And according to GAF, geohotz is a hack, so...

 

[Freshmaker]

Legally I guess they'd argue it's a choice, and wave EULAs in front of the court (whether they're worth, nothing or something). If there was a legal challenge, as long as they could drag it out in the courts ad nauseum it would be a small price to pay for them given what they think is at stake (the security of the system). There are some fairly high profile clients of PS3 Linux though, so will be interesting to see what if any reaction there is.

One thing that makes this whole business completely silly is, all a prospective hacker would have to do is not update and keep digging in. This move really doesn't change anything in terms of potential risk.

 

[TTP]

Turns out Sony saves money by not updating the hypervisor with every new update. And according to GAF, geohotz is a hack, so...

The way I read that part is that it costs Sony to update the hypervisor when "any significant hardware change (meaning new models I guess)" occurs. New hardware components = new drivers.

 

[Dead Man]

That's what Debian is for.

By the way they approved my idea. :lol
http://share.blog.us.playstation.com/ideas/2010/03/29/sony-should-add-back-linux-support-to-the-ps3/

89 votes in favor, 53 against as of now.

And to remind every one:



Phil Harrison. I guess I was stupid enough to believe him.



This is from Geoff Levand, Sony's Linux/PS3 maintainer. I sincerely hope he still has a job.



Turns out Sony saves money by not updating the hypervisor with every new update. And according to GAF, geohotz is a hack, so...

Bloody hell, that was some turn around by them. August last year - Linux here to stay, March this year - Nah, fuck Linux. :lol

Edit:

The reasons are simple: The PS3 Slim is a major cost reduction involving many changes to hardware components in the PS3 design. In order to offer the OtherOS install, SCE would need to continue to maintain the OtherOS hypervisor drivers for any significant hardware changes – this costs SCE. One of our key objectives with the new model is to pass on cost savings to the consumer with a lower retail price. Unfortunately in this case the cost of OtherOS install did not fit with the wider objective to offer a lower cost PS3

Doesn't that reasoning only apply to the slim, and not the phat? Or have I missed the point?

 

[diddlyD]

someone should start up a hacking blog and claim they've found vulnerabilities in ps3's backwards compatibility with ps1 and ps2 games, and streaming media support, so then sony can remove those too just in case.

 

[RoninChaos]

Yeah I'm a douchebag for not wanting to see firms see their systems hacked to bits and investments go down the drain.

I do draw a line, but consumer sovreighty is not the absolute be all and end all.

In the case of the Blu-ray playback, if you hack a BD-ROM you more than likely have access to hack the entire system. They would just go down the route of Microsoft and beginning shutting down consoles that are using that exploit. Don't have a problem with that.

I'm sure some people on here want a PS3 hacked specifically because they want to steal games. However, the tone I've gotten from this thread is that people are outraged because Sony is removing a feature without consent. That outrage is certainly justifiable. It shows that a company can render a piece of hardware useless to certain people just because they want to.

What makes you a douche bag is that you can't even understand, or do not want to understand, why this upsets people, and the type of precedent it is setting if people just roll with it.

I'm sure there are a lot more reasons as to why you're a douche bag, and I'm sure tons of people have already thought of some, but the replies I've seen towards you already kind of paint that picture for you.

Step back for a second, put the pom poms down, listen, and you might understand why people are upset.

...

Of course, this is the internet so ... yeah. You're a douche bag.

 

[neorej]

27 pages? Really? How many people actually use the OtherOS-function on their PS3s and most of all... why?

 

[hateradio]

someone should start up a hacking blog and claim they've found vulnerabilities in ps3's backwards compatibility with ps1 and ps2 games, and streaming media support, so then sony can remove those too just in case.

They've already killed PS2, unless you mean a FW update that removes the feature :lol that would be cruel

 

[Brofist]

27 pages? Really? How many people actually use the OtherOS-function on their PS3s and most of all... why?

Well when you have people repeating something that had been posted 100 times as if it's a new idea you get a 27 page topic.