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[Dead Man]

27 pages? Really? How many people actually use the OtherOS-function on their PS3s and most of all... why?

You... didn't read any of them, did you?

 

[Dogenzaka]

As long as they don't touch backwards compatibility I'm fine

 

[Shaka]

someone should start up a hacking blog and claim they've found vulnerabilities in ps3's backwards compatibility with ps1 and ps2 games, and streaming media support, so then sony can remove those too just in case.

Do people really think they're removing Linux because of Geo what's his face? Really?

 

[bluemax]

From twitterland:

JIT compiler for SPUs wouldnt exist without Linux/PS3; Putting a bullet on PPC innovation/work, one of the few affordable systems for devel

Confirmed. For real. RT @okonomiyonda Just talked to SCEI. OtherOS is gone forever. Wish I could fix bugs by removing features


@beatwho I agree, seems like this will *encourage* rather than discourage hacking, since to do homebrew there won't be an alternative.

"Meh" to the people whining about Linux removed from PS3. "Meh!"

@felixthinks Boo hoo hoo, is what I think. It is such a non-issue, and everyone crying needs to get a life.

So the head of Engine Development at Insomniac is bummed about this but the head of Technology at Sony Santa Monica thinks it is no big loss.

27 pages? Really? How many people actually use the OtherOS-function on their PS3s and most of all... why?

Some developers do.

 

[DCharlie]

As long as they don't touch backwards compatibility I'm fine

lol, like we won't have EXACTLY the same thread!

MOTHERSHIP --> FANBASE --> GAF

<robot voice>
BE BE BE BEEE BEE BEEP INCOMING TELEX BE BE BE BEEE BEEEE
I NEVER USED PS2 BC ANYWAYS
I BOUGHT A PS3 TO PLAY PS3 GAMES
I AM GLAD ITS GONE
SONY HAVE DONE ME A FAVOUR
</robot voice>

 

[itxaka]

That distros exist doesn't mean the platform is well supported or that the packages are as up to date/well maintained as the x86/x64 versions.

Ubuntu 9.04 is well maintained and it's the standard distro people use on the ps3. Of course, a lower userbase means that the updates arent on the same day as the x86/x64 platforms but to say they still have firefox 3.01 shows that you have 0 idea about the state of linux on PPC platforms.

 

[Om3ga]

Do people really think they're removing Linux because of Geo what's his face? Really?

He did find an "exploit" and then released that exploit onto the web. It's possible Sony's engineers took that code and found a way that the system could be compromised if left un-patched.

If a Sony says Linux on PS3's are here to stay 6-7 months ago, an exploit is found last month then this month they are saying they are removing Linux. Then I'm really going to have to believe it really is because of the exploit "Geo what's his face" found.

 

[mAcOdIn]

Edit:
Doesn't that reasoning only apply to the slim, and not the phat? Or have I missed the point?

Well the "cost" of a product is a sum of all work and support that goes into it. So, if cutting the "Other OS" option saves them money from not having to pay one guy each firmware update for who knows how many man hours testing that release but because they have to keep the guy working anyways because they're going to continue supporting the feature on the older models, well then they haven't saved any money at all.

Although, I'm not convinced it really was a cost savings measure, I'm sure BC also does something with the hypervisor, maybe not but I'd imagine it does, and they still allow that even though they killed that feature, fuck they support HW, SW and no BC, if they were truly cutting costs by reducing the amount of programming and testing of their firmware I figure they'd have ditched that as well, so I'd also imagine it was because they think it was an avenue that could lead to the system getting hacked, to which I could only really say "no shit," allowing it to run any code was a vector for it to get hacked. But, perhaps it really was a cost savings measure and the backlash of taking away linux being less than taking away BC they've decided they're going to go ahead and take the PR hit.

 

[Freshmaker]

He did find an "exploit" and then released that exploit onto the web. It's possible Sony's engineers took that code and found a way that the system could be compromised if left un-patched.

If a Sony says Linux on PS3's are here to stay 6-7 months ago, an exploit is found last month then this month they are saying they are removing Linux. Then I'm really going to have to believe it really is because of the exploit "Geo what's his face" found.

That's absurd. The hackers still have access to the hardware as long as they don't update, and that would mean Sony was planting a massive neon sign above their heads saying "You're on the perfect track! Keep going!" The move in that case does absolutely nothing to curb the hacking projects.

Far easier to believe that Sony didn't feel like supporting a feature they've dropped from newer systems, and cut the feature from older systems simply so that they can do less work while implementing firmware updates in the future.

 

[Hy_]

Guess the novelty of playing SNES/Genesis/etc emulators is over.

Oh wait, I don't care.



"But it's the principal of removing features! blah yada blah"


:lol

 

[Brofist]

That's absurd. The hackers still have access to the hardware as long as they don't update, and that would mean Sony was planting a massive neon sign above their heads saying "You're on the perfect track! Keep going!" The move in that case does absolutely nothing to curb the hacking projects.

Far easier to believe that Sony didn't feel like supporting a feature they've dropped from newer systems, and cut the feature from older systems simply so that they can do less work while implementing firmware updates in the future.

I think they realize they can't stop the Geohots out there, but they are going to try and cut the number of PS3s that can potentially run an Other OS hack down to a very small number. Sucks in the way they are doing it though.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Do people really think they're removing Linux because of Geo what's his face? Really?

Can you think of any other reason for them breaking an explicit prior promise to not remove the Other OS option from "fat" models?

 

[Dreamgazer]

Can you think of any other reason for them breaking an explicit prior promise to not remove the Other OS option from "fat" models?

Obviously cause Sony is evil, that and OtherOs maintenance(???) cost a lot of money.

yeah...that...

 

[panda21]

That's absurd. The hackers still have access to the hardware as long as they don't update, and that would mean Sony was planting a massive neon sign above their heads saying "You're on the perfect track! Keep going!" The move in that case does absolutely nothing to curb the hacking projects.

Far easier to believe that Sony didn't feel like supporting a feature they've dropped from newer systems, and cut the feature from older systems simply so that they can do less work while implementing firmware updates in the future.

if otheros is the only way to run the exploit, then even if they do figure out a way to do it, it won't matter because almost no one will have a ps3 capable of using otheros anyway.

 

[The Seventh Taylor]

Yeah a lame hardware change, on the flipside I only have 1 SACD, but then again that single SACD is now just a coaster. =(

Let me guess... is it Dark Side of the Moon? That's a hybrid SACD, so unless you've got another well-mastered CD copy it's far from useless.

Anyway, for an overview of which PS3s play SACD and which don't, see the PS3 SACD FAQ.

 

[Dreamgazer]

Far easier to believe that Sony didn't feel like supporting a feature they've dropped from newer systems, and cut the feature from older systems simply so that they can do less work while implementing firmware updates in the future.

read this :

The reasons are simple: The PS3 Slim is a major cost reduction involving many changes to hardware components in the PS3 design. In order to offer the OtherOS install, SCE would need to continue to maintain the OtherOS hypervisor drivers for any significant hardware changes – this costs SCE. One of our key objectives with the new model is to pass on cost savings to the consumer with a lower retail price. Unfortunately in this case the cost of OtherOS install did not fit with the wider objective to offer a lower cost PS3.

Turns out Sony saves money by not updating the hypervisor with every new update. And according to GAF, geohotz is a hack, so...

A.K.A. Sony already stop bothering with OtherOs Hypervisor drivers since Slim (actually way before that.)

 

[iapetus]

Regardless, I want you to think about this very carefully.

"Is there any law that prevents Company X from engaging in misleading marketing practice Y?" Depending on what practice Y is, often no, there isn't.

In this specific case, there probably is. There's a European directive that says that for at least 2 years (more depending on member state) a device must do what it is advertised that it would do. In the UK this extends to 6 years, which covers all PS3s out there.

If the device doesn't do what it was advertised to do, the manufacturer must replace it or provide a full refund.

This will be tested in court, and if it's successful, I'll be returning my PS3 for £425 - the amount I spent on it.

 

[Azerach]

In this specific case, there probably is. There's a European directive that says that for at least 2 years (more depending on member state) a device must do what it is advertised that it would do. In the UK this extends to 6 years, which covers all PS3s out there.

If the device doesn't do what it was advertised to do, the manufacturer must replace it or provide a full refund.

This will be tested in court, and if it's successful, I'll be returning my PS3 for £425 - the amount I spent on it.

That's more of a warranty type thing, i used that directive to get my YLOD PS3 repaired after the warranty was out. But in this case the primary function of the device remains unaffected, it's just that the provided extra service (PSN) will become unavailable.

 

[iapetus]

That's more of a warranty type thing, i used that directive to get my YLOD PS3 repaired after the warranty was out. But in this case the primary function of the device remains unaffected, it's just that the provided extra service (PSN) will become unavailable.

It's intended as a warranty, but it applies here. Sony are removing one set of functionality depending on whether you upgrade or not. Still looks like a clear violation of the directive to me.

 

[LM4sure]

Do people really think they're removing Linux because of Geo what's his face? Really?

Yes. And that is probably the case. Sony is scared shitless. Remember when the PSP was hacked? That really blew up in Sony's face! :lol

 

[spwolf]

It's intended as a warranty, but it applies here. Sony are removing one set of functionality depending on whether you upgrade or not. Still looks like a clear violation of the directive to me.

scary man indeed! Just making sure you dont lose your sanity when dealing with courts.

 

[LM4sure]

if otheros is the only way to run the exploit, then even if they do figure out a way to do it, it won't matter because almost no one will have a ps3 capable of using otheros anyway.

This is why I probably won't upgrade. I'll wait for the PS3 to be hacked and then there will be a backdoor to getting on PSN without the new firmware. Shouldn't take too long...

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

This is why I probably won't upgrade. I'll wait for the PS3 to be hacked and then there will be a backdoor to getting on PSN without the new firmware. Shouldn't take too long...

:lol

 

[yurinka]

This will cause hackers releasing custom firmwares to enable it, which later also will be used to run pirated games. Just around when PS3 HW turns profitable. Piracy will push HW sales in severall countries. mmmm....

 

[criesofthepast]

This is why I probably won't upgrade. I'll wait for the PS3 to be hacked and then there will be a backdoor to getting on PSN without the new firmware. Shouldn't take too long...

I know your joking...right?

It's been over 3 years. It ain't happening soon. Please don't hold your breath, my friend. Update the system.

 

[Philanthropist]

This is why I probably won't upgrade. I'll wait for the PS3 to be hacked and then there will be a backdoor to getting on PSN without the new firmware. Shouldn't take too long...

Sounds like a long wait. Either that or there'll be a good chance your PSN account will be banned. You're in quite a lose-lose situation.

 

[kamorra]

I know your joking...right?

It's been over 3 years. It ain't happening soon. Please don't hold your breath, my friend. Update the system.

It doesn't matter. It's been 5 years for the 360 and now we have Jtag.

 

[Gibb]

nm..

 

[spwolf]

It doesn't matter. It's been 5 years for the 360 and now we have Jtag.

10 year cycle FTW

 

[iapetus]

scary man indeed! Just making sure you dont lose your sanity when dealing with courts.

Oh, I'm planning on letting someone else deal with the courts first. Once the precedent's set there, Sony will have to buckle for everyone.

 

[criesofthepast]

It doesn't matter. It's been 5 years for the 360 and now we have Jtag.

Wasn't the 360 hacked a few months after it was released? Totally different beasts I think.

The PS3 hacking scene has been quiet (non-existent) until recently with this geohot stuff.

I just don't see it happening anytime soon. Have fun not going on PSN for a few years while you wait for it to be cracked. Does anyone seriously see something big coming anytime soon? I don't even see it happening before the PS4 is released.

 

[Ashes]

Firmware locked in via psn and future games... :lol
No way, can I do without PSN or future ps3 games... :/
And I don't get the ps2 compatibility and other os comparison....
Quick question... do retail games that require the latest firmware update come with the latest firmware update, because there must be a lot of people who don't have their ps3s connected to the Internet; some don't even have the Internet..

 

[spwolf]

do retail games that require the latest firmware update come with the latest firmware update, because there must be a lot of people who don't have their ps3s connected to the Internet; some don't even have the Internet..

yes, there are also bd movies that come with firmware update...

 

[Dead Man]

Well the "cost" of a product is a sum of all work and support that goes into it. So, if cutting the "Other OS" option saves them money from not having to pay one guy each firmware update for who knows how many man hours testing that release but because they have to keep the guy working anyways because they're going to continue supporting the feature on the older models, well then they haven't saved any money at all.

Although, I'm not convinced it really was a cost savings measure, I'm sure BC also does something with the hypervisor, maybe not but I'd imagine it does, and they still allow that even though they killed that feature, fuck they support HW, SW and no BC, if they were truly cutting costs by reducing the amount of programming and testing of their firmware I figure they'd have ditched that as well, so I'd also imagine it was because they think it was an avenue that could lead to the system getting hacked, to which I could only really say "no shit," allowing it to run any code was a vector for it to get hacked. But, perhaps it really was a cost savings measure and the backlash of taking away linux being less than taking away BC they've decided they're going to go ahead and take the PR hit.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[JaseC]

I just don't see it happening anytime soon. Have fun not going on PSN for a few years while you wait for it to be cracked. Does anyone seriously see something big coming anytime soon? I don't even see it happening before the PS4 is released.

A handful of posters seem to believe the reason the PS3 has yet to be hacked is simply because nobody's put the requisite amount of effort into trying. :lol

 

[gcubed]

This is why I probably won't upgrade. I'll wait for the PS3 to be hacked and then there will be a backdoor to getting on PSN without the new firmware. Shouldn't take too long...

lol... this is a serious post?

 

[Vagabundo]

A handful of posters seem to believe the reason the PS3 has yet to be hacked is simply because nobody's put the requisite amount of effort into trying. :lol

I agree, but the is some significant hurdles, it is probably one of the best protected consoles out there and OtherOS may have take some of the talent of the PS3 hacking pool.

It will be interesting time to see how the scene responds, they may take up the gauntlet and run with it. Having a hacked PS3 would be a good thing. OtherOS was a little too limitieed for my liking.

It would be interesting to run PS3 games while in otherOS and having servers and other stuff running in the background. PS3Hacking4evar or something somthing.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

This is why I probably won't upgrade. I'll wait for the PS3 to be hacked and then there will be a backdoor to getting on PSN without the new firmware. Shouldn't take too long...

You tell 'em!

 

[GSG Flash]

The more I think about this, the more I'm wondering about the legality of all this. They are removing a feature that was pointed out as a selling point, a feature many people paid for even if they never intended to use it.

I guess Sony is trying to jump around the whole legal aspect by saying it's optional and that you can use your console for games and blu rays that don't require the new update and whatnot, however not installing the update will immediately cripple your ability to use another advertised feature of the PS3, the PSN, and will cripple your ability to play games and blu rays in the future.

I have never witnessed any company actually remove an advertised feature through a firmware update (I know Nintendo removed MP3 support from the Wii, but that was a true optional update, unlike this), so it's interesting to see where this stands when it comes to the law.

 

[Erebus]

Any word on what the new FW will actually offer (apart from removing functionality)?

 

[DeadGzuz]

I have never witnessed any company actually remove an advertised feature

Link to that advertisement?

 

[Azure Dream]

Link to that advertisement?

It's promoted on Playstation.com to start with.

There is more to the PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3™) computer entertainment system than you may have assumed. In addition to playing games, watching movies, listening to music, and viewing photos, you can use the PS3™ system to run the Linux operating system.

By installing the Linux operating system, you can use the PS3™ system not only as an entry-level personal computer with hundreds of familiar applications for home and office use, but also as a complete development environment for the Cell Broadband Engine™ (Cell/B.E.).

 

[RotBot]

This is annoying. I installed Linux on my PS3 last summer and I won't be able to reclaim that partition without formatting the whole disk.

 

[Prezhulio]

This is annoying. I installed Linux on my PS3 last summer and I won't be able to reclaim that partition without formatting the whole disk.

Yep. Even if I had the space on an external (which i dont) to backup my 320gb hard drive that is nearly full from installs, movies and downloads it would be a hell of an annoyance time wise, so I'm just settling for losing that 10gb for now.

 

[iapetus]

The more I think about this, the more I'm wondering about the legality of all this. They are removing a feature that was pointed out as a selling point, a feature many people paid for even if they never intended to use it.

As pointed out many times, this is against EU law for a given period of time - at least 2 years, and up to 6 years in some countries (the UK included). By this law, Sony are obliged to either replace the non-confirming hardware with hardware that provides the advertised functionality (ie. restore OtherOS functionality) or provide a full original cost refund.

If they have to do the latter, I advise everyone with a launch unit to return it for a £425 refund, then get themselves a £249 PS3 Slim and pocket the change.

 

[harriet the spy]

It's intended as a warranty, but it applies here. Sony are removing one set of functionality depending on whether you upgrade or not. Still looks like a clear violation of the directive to me.

I am not sure it will work, though. I once applied a mac firmware update to my macbook, in the short window it was available. It fucked the DVD drive irreversibly. Apple told me that it was too bad, but that I didn't _have_ to apply the firmware updates, and that when they were personally doing so, they were praying really hard that it wouldn't brick because who knows what can happen right. Such.Fucking.Bullshit!

Technically, no one forces you to update. It will still play currently available ps3 games.
Anyhow, I am not an expert in legal matters, but if I were to bet, I'd be on Sony winning the case. Then again, Europe actually has some consumer protection laws that make sense.

It sucks for me as well. I was using the ps3 linux a bit, for emulation and to play with the cell And I can't stand to reformat the whole thing, which means I'll probably lose 10g of my disk.

On the other hand, _if_ this geo hack actually lead to piracy, then I am not sure it is for the worse. I have rarely heard of CFW that doesn't eventually lead to piracy. I certainly don't care if Sony crashes and burns and disappears tomorrow. My selfish interests, though, are aligned with having more games, and less cheaters on PSN, and the illogical glee to know no one but thieves played Valkyria Chronicles without paying for it.

And before Dragona goes all irate on me: no, I am not saying that CFW using people are pirates. I use CFW on my PSP and my iphone (not technically CFW there, i guess), because it exists and me using it won't change anything to the piracy existing on these platforms.

On a last point, I have no way to prove it, but put me on the camp of those who believe that the PSP was actually hurt by piracy. I know , bubub DSes are easy to pirate! But the people who ended up buying PSPs and DSes are different demographic. And having to buy hardware to pirate makes a difference, empirical evidence from the CFW thread suggests.

 

[iapetus]

I am not sure it will work, though. I once applied a mac firmware update to my macbook, in the short window it was available. It fucked the DVD drive irreversibly. Apple told me that it was too bad, but that I didn't _have_ to apply the firmware updates, and that when they were personally doing so, they were praying really hard that it wouldn't brick because who knows what can happen right. Such.Fucking.Bullshit!

And did you just believe them, or did you take them to task about it? Of course they're going to tell you that they're right, even though they're wrong. Sony aren't going to get that luxury.

Technically, no one forces you to update. It will still play currently available ps3 games.
Anyhow, I am not an expert in legal matters, but if I were to bet, I'd be on Sony winning the case. Then again, Europe actually has some consumer protection laws that make sense.

If you don't update then you're losing other advertised functionality. Sony are removing advertised functionality either way - either PSN and games or Other OS. "You don't have to upgrade" doesn't save them, because they make it quite clear that if you don't upgrade you'll lose functionality too.

 

[Version 3.0]

This thread has so many shitty analogies it makes me want to cry.

It's so tempting to call the people in here who value corporate rights over their own mindless sheep, but they're not. They're more like the genetically engineered cow that wants to be eaten from The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

Really, people. Stop telling yourselves that you don't own anything. It's sickening. But what's worse is that if enough of you believe it, it could actually become true someday.

 

[Master Z]

Has anybody ever challenged an EULA in court and actually won the case? Sorry if this has already been answered I really didn't want to wade through 20+ pages.

 

[Zen]

I really need to make a programme or a game and have part of the EULA state that whomever buys the game agrees to the EULA and that they are my personal slaves, and they are under a legal contract for them to forward their banking information to me so I can withdraw all of their (my) money.

That's illegal, so no dice.