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[i-Lo]

Even if it's only 6 Gb its still massive...

So it is even at 5GB ;P

Frankly i don't think we are people who are be playing this game. I think it is created mainly with kids in mind same as was Crash or Spyro. It is directed by dude which was responsible for crash spyro and a lot of sonics past 1st one.

When you look at Knack and artstyle it is imo created with kids in mind. For example this character could be in any pixar film (from design not GFX side):

I have to say that looks astounding. I would not call it only for kids but rather the "adorable" style. The situation is parallel to what happened with PS3 and how Ratchet and Clank: ToD was announced to show case the graphical capabilities of the sytem.

 

[metalslimer]

Even if it's only 6 Gb its still massive...

Hell even when we thought there was only 4 it was a very large amount as a year ago people were talking about 2. 8 is just gargantuan. So was that trailer running in real time or was it CG?

Seems like kind of a big project for SCEJ to tackle

 

[Binabik15]

If the colourful look with super smooth IQ and good lighting is there in actual gameplay then hell yeah I'm gonna buy Knack. Knack itself needs a moving face with exaggerated emotions or at last make the eyebrows wiggle, but I like the Goblins and tanks and explooooosiooooons.

 

[i-Lo]

I might be wrong, but the comments are not about size, but type of the RAM - it's great to have 8Gb, but it doesn't need to be GDDR5. Adding that is pointless when you're limited by the GPU. For example nVidia's Titan has 6Gb of GDDR5 and is like 6-8x more powerfull than PS4's GPU - if they felt it's better of with 8 or 10Gb they'd put it there, because at this price 100$ more is not an issue anymore

Did you know that the GPU in PS4 is a Pitcairn derivative that falls between the 7850 and 7870 which was designed with 153.6GB/sec (base) of bandwidth (7850)?

So no, it was absolutely necessary to go for a memory architecture that would adequately support the GPU and CPU (which requires around 12GB/sec in bandwidth). And at this point, without resorting to stacking DDR3 chips with 1024bit bus, GDDR5 is the best option.

 

[Callibretto]

Frankly i don't think we are people who are be playing this game. I think it is created mainly with kids in mind same as was Crash or Spyro. It is directed by dude which was responsible for crash spyro and a lot of sonics past 1st one.

When you look at Knack and artstyle it is imo created with kids in mind. For example this character could be in any pixar film (from design not GFX side):

but we adore crash, spyro and has been asking for new Jak 4 even now.

we're hyped for Tearaway and Puppeteer, targeting kids doesn't mean alienating adults, Pixar film in particular are very accessible for all ages.

 

[Perkel]

A smoke being "volumetric" or not has nothing to do with bandwidth - you need bandwidth for overdraw, i.e. how much transparent things you can put on screen at one time (and this is where PS2 & X360 where much better than PS3). Volumetric means that the smoke (or fire, water, etc.) are not just sprites, but are "conscious" about the geometry & conditions of the scene (e.g. wind) and - being split in mutitude of particles - interact with it, i.e. smoke is moved by wind, by passing objects, flows through scenery (e.g. gaps in stairs). This requires strong CPU or - even better - a GPGPU, because it can be highly parallelised. And this is why PS4's extra 6 Compute Units (18 vs. 12 in Durango) is - might be, it's still uncertain - such a big advantage.

I what is "volumetric". As i said "volumetric" doesn't mean that it will be reactive to everything. As of bandwidth didn't know that it isn't that much needed but still size was problem (aside from CPU/GPU lack of power).

As of Knack demo. I highly doubt something like this can be replicated by using sprites. To much volume change on different parts, to much lightning exposition and from looks it grows in realistic way.

I am yet to see sprite based smoke like that.

 

[HoodWinked]

Mentioned by me volumetric effects (explosions, smoke) from Knack trailer.

i like how the smoke plumes are identical.

 

[Perkel]

but we adore crash, spyro and has been asking for new Jak 4 even now.

we're hyped for Tearaway and Puppeteer, targeting kids doesn't mean alienating adults, Pixar film in particular are very accessible for all ages.

Most of us including myself love it but there will be people complaining or not liking artstyle.

 

[Perkel]

i like how the smoke plumes are identical.

You are right. Most right and middle are the same. Looks like prerecorded volumatric smoke animation (same as Uncharted 2 granade explosion).

Which would mean it is in game not CGI

 

[Dany]

GDDR5 is based on DDR3 with 4x the cycles per clock signal, GDDR3 is 2x.

Ok thanks.

 

[Zwei]

That's what she said

She's lying.

 

[antic604]

Yeah, you're wrong. It needs to be GDDR5. Lesser GPUs than the one in the PS4 still use GDDR5 - in fact, if you're buying any graphics card at all you shouldn't buy one without it, because that means the manufacturer doesn't give a fuck about the performance. Now if you're making a console and doing some custom shit like Microsoft you have options, but if you're just going to stick some chips on there and call it a day it should be fast RAM.

Did you know that the GPU in PS4 is a Pitcairn derivative that falls between the 7850 and 7870 which was designed with 153.6GB/sec (base) of bandwidth (7850)? So no, it was absolutely necessary to go for a memory architecture that would adequately support the GPU and CPU (which requires around 12GB/sec in bandwidth). And at this point, without resorting to stacking DDR3 chips with 1024bit bus, GDDR5 is the best option.

Guys, I know it needed to be GDDR5, but I think 4Gb of it was enough for graphics - adding another 4 won't improve anything and lower latency of GDDR5 (vs. DDR3) might cause bottlenecks in general computing tasks. I meant that if they wanted to go to 8Gb, it would be enough if they used DDR3 for this additional part, but obviously it's much easier technically to increase the RAM of the same type, rather than mix two different types of it.

GTX690 has only 2 Gb of GDDR5, so - in a sense - 8Gb of it in PS4 is a bit 'overkill', as something of lesser quality & cost would suffice.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Guys, I know it needed to be GDDR5, but I think 4Gb of it was enough for graphics - adding another 4 won't improve anything and lower latency of GDDR5 (vs. DDR3) might cause bottlenecks in general computing tasks. I meant that if they wanted to go to 8Gb, it would be enough if they used DDR3 for this additional part, but obviously it's much easier technically to increase the RAM of the same type, rather than mix two different types of it.

GTX690 has only 2 Gb of GDDR5, so - in a sense - 8Gb of it in PS4 is a bit 'overkill', as something of lesser quality & cost would suffice.

Yeah right. 8GB is what devs want.

 

[kami_sama]

Guys, I know it needed to be GDDR5, but I think 4Gb of it was enough for graphics - adding another 4 won't improve anything and lower latency of GDDR5 (vs. DDR3) might cause bottlenecks in general computing tasks. I meant that if they wanted to go to 8Gb, it would be enough if they used DDR3 for this additional part, but obviously it's much easier technically to increase the RAM of the same type, rather than mix two different types of it.

GTX690 has only 2 Gb of GDDR5, so - in a sense - 8Gb of it in PS4 is a bit 'overkill', as something of lesser quality & cost would suffice.

There's always diminishing returns, you are right. But this futureproofs the console. And I don't think the higher latency will cause problems later on. I suppose non-graphics things would tolerate more latency.

 

[artist]

Yeah right. 8GB is what devs want.

#1 Developer request.

Guys, I know it needed to be GDDR5, but I think 4Gb of it was enough for graphics - adding another 4 won't improve anything and lower latency of GDDR5 (vs. DDR3) might cause bottlenecks in general computing tasks. I meant that if they wanted to go to 8Gb, it would be enough if they used DDR3 for this additional part, but obviously it's much easier technically to increase the RAM of the same type, rather than mix two different types of it.

GTX690 has only 2 Gb of GDDR5, so - in a sense - 8Gb of it in PS4 is a bit 'overkill', as something of lesser quality & cost would suffice.

You are forgetting that the GTX690 is also not operating in pure vacuum, there is 8/16GB DDR3 for the CPU to fallback on. The damage control or overkill blanket statements are really not well thought through.

 

[Wishmaster92]

People, we should remember that 8GB is the system total and not what will be available to devs after the OS takes a bite out. It will be more like 6GB (which is still substantially above the rumoured 3.5GB).

i-Lo, wasn't there a rumor that had something to do with the os being on a separate chip and that it wouldn't even use that much ram if any? Idk what it was exactly, like when you started to play let's say Killzone shadow fall, the full 8gb of ram would be used for the game? Was this debunked?

 

[i-Lo]

Guys, I know it needed to be GDDR5, but I think 4Gb of it was enough for graphics - adding another 4 won't improve anything and lower latency of GDDR5 (vs. DDR3) might cause bottlenecks in general computing tasks. I meant that if they wanted to go to 8Gb, it would be enough if they used DDR3 for this additional part, but obviously it's much easier technically to increase the RAM of the same type, rather than mix two different types of it.

GTX690 has only 2 Gb of GDDR5, so - in a sense - 8Gb of it in PS4 is a bit 'overkill', as something of lesser quality & cost would suffice.

GTX690 has 4GB

Anyway, you do realize that 8GB - OS consumption, would be available for both graphical and general purpose tasks. IIRC adding another type of RAM for general purpose would screw with the design simplicity and the memory controller. Plus, it far removed for an elegant solution of a single pool that allows developers to draw their own lines. If the Xbox 360 was not a proof of that concept, I do not know what is. And, it's also about future proofing the console where developers are looking mitigate if not completely eliminate all types of pop-ins as the years go by.

i-Lo, wasn't there a rumor that had something to do with the os being on a separate chip and that it wouldn't even use that much ram if any? Idk what it was exactly, like when you started to play let's say Killzone shadow fall, the full 8gb of ram would be used for the game? Was this debunked?

Oh it was all speculation back in the day when we were not even sure of the RAM size. Right now it looks like it will be eating into the main system RAM barring some other offloading solutions that they have yet to reveal.

 

[antic604]

Yeah right. 8GB is what devs want.

Yes, but they've not specified it has to be of GDDR5 variety!

If you want to tune your regular family car's engine you have to stop at some point (probably around 200bhp), because other parts were not designed to cope with such power. Only in this case it's the other way around - they've put a 100bhp engine (the GPU) in a car fitted with sport suspension & gearbox, performance exhaust and two white stripes accross the bonnet (the memory)...

 

[mavs]

Guys, I know it needed to be GDDR5, but I think 4Gb of it was enough for graphics - adding another 4 won't improve anything and lower latency of GDDR5 (vs. DDR3) might cause bottlenecks in general computing tasks. I meant that if they wanted to go to 8Gb, it would be enough if they used DDR3 for this additional part, but obviously it's much easier technically to increase the RAM of the same type, rather than mix two different types of it.

GTX690 has only 2 Gb of GDDR5, so - in a sense - 8Gb of it in PS4 is a bit 'overkill', as something of lesser quality & cost would suffice.

Oh right that was bandied about as an option, but really nobody expected them to do any more tinkering with the APU. If they were going to add a pool of DDR3 you may as well ask them to add more GPU power while they are at it, or match MS's rumored instruction set extensions.

Really the 8GB of GDDR5 made more sense in every way. Memory prices are falling faster than the APU prices are likely to, and if they have to take a bath for the first year that's nothing compared to the lifespan of the system. Shortly after this thing is launched the price of the RAM will be a non-issue, it would be a real shame to give in to such short-run thinking.

 

[Daante]

So let me get this straight, ppl are actually complaining now about that the PS4 has 8 GB of gddr5 ram?

Really? ^^

 

[Projectjustice]

Even if it's only 7Gb. It's still massive.

It wont be 7GB either. Not if its constantly recording the past 15 mins of your gameplay and all the other instant features its using.

 

[antic604]

Once again, I fully understand what you're all saying but I mean if it was technically possible it would be better and less expensive for Sony to go for 4Gb GDDR5 + 4Gb DDR3 without any hit to graphical fidelity. I'm happy for 8Gb, just not so confident if how they achieved it is the best solution, although probably only one practically available.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Yes, but they've not specified it has to be of GDDR5 variety!

If you want to tune your regular family car's engine you have to stop at some point (probably around 200bhp), because other parts were not designed to cope with such power. Only in this case it's the other way around - they've put a 100bhp engine (the GPU) in a car fitted with sport suspension & gearbox, performance exhaust and two white stripes accross the bonnet (the memory)...

I'm not really in the combative mode to disagree but you're not entirely wrong but I will say that several people I know who make the games really like the 8GB.

 

[coldfoot]

I really really wish Sony ups the clock of the APU to around ~870 MHz so they can advertise a 2TF GPU.

 

[Metalmurphy]

It wont be 7GB either. Not if its constantly recording the past 15 mins of your gameplay and all the other instant features its using.

You can't possibly think the recording will be done on the RAM...

1GB is more then enough for a console OS.

 

[cyberheater]

It wont be 7GB either. Not if its constantly recording the past 15 mins of your gameplay and all the other instant features its using.

It can record that directly to the hard drive. No memory needed.

 

[i-Lo]

It wont be 7GB either. Not if its constantly recording the past 15 mins of your gameplay and all the other instant features its using.

There have already been talks about how the separate video compression chip may alleviate the issue and write it straight to either HDD or that 16GB (rumoured) flash chip may come into play here in some way.

It would be remiss not mention that the recording and uploading (Share function) features existed at a time where EDGE had pegged the RAM at 4GB and the OS ~512MB.

 

[artist]

GTX690 has 4GB

Each GPU has 2GB addressable VRAM.

 

[Insane Metal]

Any info on the CPU > RAM bandwidth? I remember seeing 12GB/s in those VGLeaks pics... if that's real, it's really bad isn't it?

 

[Van Owen]

It wont be 7GB either. Not if its constantly recording the past 15 mins of your gameplay and all the other instant features its using.

Can't they just like, use the hdd?

 

[Drek]

Any info on the CPU > RAM bandwidth? I remember seeing 12GB/s in those VGLeaks pics... if that's real, it's really bad isn't it?

The GDDR5 ram is supposed to have 176GB/s bandwidth on the PS4. There should not be any CPU specific bottleneck to change that. This is the entire point to a unified memory structure.

 

[Apath]

It's blowing my mind that we're actually having people argue that 8GB of GDDR5 isn't in fact amazing.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

GTX690 has 4GB

GTX690 is a dual GPU with internal SLI, so there is only 2GB VRAM available.

Its worth mentioning it needs lot of VRAM being aimed at very big resolutions like 5720x1080 or stereoscopic gaming.

 

[yarden24]

GTX690 is a dual GPU with internal SLI, so there is only 2GB VRAM available.

Its worth mentioning it needs lot of VRAM being aimed at very big resolutions like 5720x1080 or stereoscopic gaming.

I know little about computers tech wise, but honestly, you seem like one one of the most level headed people in this thread, and everyone just insulting you without having any way to counter your points reeks of fanboyisim on their part.

 

[Perkel]

GTX690 is a dual GPU with internal SLI, so there is only 2GB VRAM available.

Its worth mentioning it needs lot of VRAM being aimed at very big resolutions like 5720x1080 or stereoscopic gaming.

Or just dumping high resolution textures. As i said earlier 2GB of Vram isn't that much in PC gaming if you want to use high resolution textures.

Currently what could be closest to next gen is GTA4 Ienchancer.

With good texture packs, better textured and meshed cars, better world textures you need 2GB+ of GDDR5. People would already go beyond that if they would have hardware to do that (since it was problem to get more than 2-3GB GDDR5)

 

[BuzzJive]

It can record that directly to the hard drive. No memory needed.

I don't think they'll be recording to the hdd. It'll make for all kinds of problems when dealing with other hd access during the recording functionality.

The RAM is the place to record to for best performance. You can save it to the hdd afterward if you so choose.

 

[yurinka]

i-Lo, wasn't there a rumor that had something to do with the os being on a separate chip and that it wouldn't even use that much ram if any? Idk what it was exactly, like when you started to play let's say Killzone shadow fall, the full 8gb of ram would be used for the game? Was this debunked?

Sony confirmed that with the system shut down (stand by), there will be a separate secondary system capable to download and install game updates or games purchased remotely.

They also confirmed that the main system doesn't do the streaming stuff because there is another secondary system (maybe the same stated above?) in charge of it.

So it wouldn't be strange that this (or these) secondary systems would take care of OS and camera while playing, leaving all the main CPU, GPU and RAM 100% (or almost) free for games.

So considering this and how small is Vita OS print when playing, I also think that 512MB is way more enough than to allow multitask (example: to be able to open a browser without needing to clos the game), to use the camera and to save video in the HDD / stream it.

 

[tipoo]

This is what the WiiU did and Iwata said that they are looking to reduce 1024MB OS footprint in half.

Source please?

 

[fixuis]

So it is even at 5GB ;P



I have to say that looks astounding. I would not call it only for kids but rather the "adorable" style. The situation is parallel to what happened with PS3 and how Ratchet and Clank: ToD was announced to show case the graphical capabilities of the sytem.

Came here to say this exact same thing. Game looks phenomenal. I still remember the time i played rather TOD for the firs time. Jaw on the floor. Get the exact same feeling from knack, laid back fun yet made for the core gamer feeling. Need to see more of this game in action.

 

[Curufinwe]

I know little about computers tech wise, but honestly, you seem like one one of the most level headed people in this thread, and everyone just insulting you without having any way to counter your points reeks of fanboyisim on their part.

Yes, fanboyism is terrible.

8GB is not good for gamers.

 

[i-Lo]

Source please?

Apologies for not having a proper source. I was reading it here on GAF when some member said that they are looking to give up to 512MB RAM back to the developers. No tentative date or anything.

 

[Lord Error]

Can't they just like, use the hdd?

It would be amazingly dumb not to. Lets face it, they won't record low-compressed 1080p footage either, it will be something more manageable and easier to upload.

 

[Razgreez]

I don't think they'll be recording to the hdd. It'll make for all kinds of problems when dealing with other hd access during the recording functionality.

They'll have some rudimentary flash memory in there to temporarily store the video to since it is a major feature. That would be the logical plan of action

 

[kaching]

I don't think they'll be recording to the hdd. It'll make for all kinds of problems when dealing with other hd access during the recording functionality.

The RAM is the place to record to for best performance. You can save it to the hdd afterward if you so choose.

I can't think of any problems that would be significant enough to warrant sequestering much more precious RAM.

DVRs have been recording straight to HDD for years. Multiple streams, playback while recording, rarely is there a significant problem.

 

[Quicksilver4648]

Yeah, the recorded video will probably be saved straight to the HDD but the real question is at what levels of compression? Maybe it is the cynic in me, but I don't see the PS4 saving uncompressed 1080p30fps video. It will probably be reduced to a compressed mp4 file at 720p30fps for easy upload and reduced size.

 

[AgentP]

GTX690 is a dual GPU with internal SLI, so there is only 2GB VRAM available.

Its worth mentioning it needs lot of VRAM being aimed at very big resolutions like 5720x1080 or stereoscopic gaming.

Ok, then a GTX 680 with 4GB.

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

Knack looks pure cgi Pixar movie to me. As long as physics and animations and AI is good, everyone will be quite happy for next gen.


Final fantasy are gonna benefit so much from this badass ram setup. I believe they said with their type of game they preferred more ram instead of less ram high bandwidth. Now that they have best of both worlds I'm very happy with what they can accomplish. Pc architecture should help too so when they announce new FF at e3, it better not take 7 years to develop and be pushes to ps5 cause that's just pathetic and inexcusable in my books.

Anyways all future consoles going with pc architecture will mean that we will be garaunteed BC just like you can play every pc game created on your modern build.

 

[mavs]

Yes, fanboyism is terrible.

Can't really call that fanboyism by itself. Dude is nothing if not consistent. Computation uber alles. There is an argument to be made along those lines, that gamers will pay for the RAM and the benefits will fall more on the side of simpler development than on a higher ceiling for graphical quality, when compared to an increase in CPU or GPU power. It's not an argument I find compelling in this exact circumstance though.

 

[tipoo]

Apologies for not having a proper source. I was reading it here on GAF when some member said that they are looking to give up to 512MB RAM back to the developers. No tentative date or anything.

But is that from Nintendo, or some pipeline rumor?

 

[ypo]

Here's a question. Let's say MS announces 8gb of 3 RAM. Sony has 8gb of 5 RAM.

What exactly does this mean for games? If Call of Duty 20 was made for each system in 2014, what kind of graphical differences would there be?

Pretty meaningful. Theer were PC graphics cards comparisons where the DDR5 version of the same card netted about 10fps advantage on average compared to DDR3 version.