Felessan
Member
FSR4 is an CNN-Transformer hybrid
LLM are transformer too and it's kinda time aligned transformers went into both language and graphics tech
And models developed prior (dlss 2.0-3.6 and PSSR) stuck with CNN
PS6 Might Not Support PS5 Pro Games Due to Different AI Upscaling Architecture?!
LLM are transformer too and it's kinda time aligned transformers went into both language and graphics tech
And models developed prior (dlss 2.0-3.6 and PSSR) stuck with CNN
viveks86
Member
Of course not. At the minimum, you can expect PSSR 2.0 to work.
I love how Nvidia marketing always makes people ignorant. The best image recognition models are precisely hybrid, because CNN have some advantages in local features extraction while transformer models exceed on capturing global context. If DLSS4 is better than FSR4 is simply because better training, more input processing, or bigger model, one of those reasons. Being full transformer is not the advantage.
PlayStaytion
Member
A vanilla underpowered console right out of the oven to sell tens of millions of units and to make the pro look worthy for the masses. They expect many ps6 owners to switch to pro.
Felessan
Member
What?
Pro will be seriously weaker in number of areas than PS6 and probably discontinued just before PS6 launch.
Radical_3d
Member
I know right? Trivial for a trash tier programmer like me, but somehow it's in doubt if a billion dollar company can. It's a mystery...
Tobimacoss
Member
Not really no. So let's say PS6 Orion and PS6 Canis dockable Handheld, it's a two SKU strategy, would Orion count as the "Pro" model? If so, would they never do a PS6 Pro?
darrylgorn
Member
Switch 2 +1
PaintTinJr
Member
But LLMs aren't a signal processing problem solution, so it is a stretch IMO - even if they both operate at a holistic level.
Felessan
Member
I am not saying they are the same
In my opinion LLM research brought transformers to light and graphics ML researchers took notion of it (they for sure look at progress/trends not only in their field but in ML in general) and start evaluating/testing it, leading to modern models.
So they are not the same but linked and rise of one led to progress in another.
yurinka
Member
I think the ideal solution for PS6, which I assume is in what Sony an AMD are working on, it's to not only just to improve PSSR, but instead to move it to a OS/system level, integrated in how the console renders the visuals, so they can apply it to all games rendered there (including PS5 and PS4 games, including the PS1/PS2/PSP Classics), being able to boost resolution and framerate of any game ran there without needing any per game PSSR implementation in the game's code.
If they achieve this, they could have a portable underpowered hardware compare to base PS5, who would use this to run base PS5 games natively running at the same or lower resolution than the commonly played in PS4 or PS5 (let's say internally works like a PS5 in low power mode limited to 720p-for when in portable mode- or 1080p -for when in docked mode-) and then use this to bump to 1440p -for when in portable mode- or 4K -for when in docked mode- by doubling its width an height, plus pretty likely also bumping fps with an optional 60fps cap.
I assume this would allow them to run any -or almost all- PS4 and PS5 games at 1440p in a portable at 60fps, maybe even the one locked at 30fps, at least in my fantasy. Now it's just a fantasy, but I trust people like Cerny who make stuff that are almost a miracle.
Regarding PS6 games, which I asume all of them will be released for PS5 to run them in the portable and also to take advantage to people who will stay on PS5 years after the PS6 release, would be able to enjoy this without having to spend game resources or dev time on it. Meaning, they may natively do their games with a native 1080p resolution and lower framerate, to focus the horsepower on adding extra detail and more dense worlds, and then use this next-gen, OS level PSSR bump losslessly the resolution from that to 4K or even 8K and also bump their framerate.
Gameplay Gods Bless
Member
PS5 Pro is better hardware it's just PSSR sucks ass and devs love making stupid decisions which leads to the pro version running worse than the base PS5.
MatrixReloaded101
Member
The whole point of the PS5 pro was to push PSSR so if PSSR sucks or don't work right the pro basically sucks lol.
Can't blame the devs when they are working with crap like the PSSR. Sony actually mentioned that they will be updating it next year.
Can we stop with this stupid bullshit hyperbole? When used properly PSSR it's far from shitty.
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PlayStaytion
Member
I'm partially trolling but we've seen this with the one x, the software side always outright the hardware side.
You need motion vectors for implementing those algorithms. You can't apply automatically for PS4 or PS5 games.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I get PS4 games, but why not PS5 games?
PaintTinJr
Member
And TOP for TOP, millisecond for millisecond if it was on an even keeled hardware and able to hide a 4ms-6ms process for better accuracy motion vector calculations - technically not PSSR - and spend longer on the - technically not PSSR part of - motion vector reprojection too, like DLSS and FSR4 do, then it would be on par or superior.
We saw DF put a RTX 5090 with DLAA3.x with fast frame-rates that mitigate reprojection ghosting against PSSR with Rachet and Clank and it still wasn't superior in all situations and it was still outclassed in some aspects by PSSR - particularly detail at extreme distance IIRC - and DLAA claimed wins that related more to effective frame-rate than scaling.
Even FSR3 isn't garbage, and PSSR like DLSS3.x/FSR4 are way above that. It is like claiming MP3 at 120kbps is garbage when comparing to analogue radio.
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Because the same issue applies, DLSS/FSR/PSSR/etc need motion vectors to be able to generate a coherent image. Although interestingly AFMF 3.0 is rumored to support driver-level motion vector extraction through methods like in-game motion blur and TAA, so that could allow for system-level FSR/PSSR injection, but still only for games that use motion vectors.
Tobimacoss
Member
So how does AutoSR work at the system level?
AutoSR does not use motion vectors, it's a spatial upscaler like DLSS 1.0/FSR 1.0
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Evil Calvin
Afraid of Boobs
Barely any PS5 only games either
PaintTinJr
Member
Unless I'm mistaken, and it is a while since I've read much about the technical setup of UE5, but by default it has a scaler that results in all UE5 games needing to calculate standard MV AFAIK. I believe it was the reason DLSS was so easily patched into the Matrix demo on PC, and I suspect Unity does the same for 3D games, unless TAA wasn't as widespread as I thought from DF coverage of TAA in games following the PS4 Pro release last-gen
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No way a big company as Sony who need offer support is going to bypass every engine to inject motion vectors to PSSR 2.0 when they are not doing in their own games.
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PaintTinJr
Member
The GPU in recent PlayStation gens provides all sort of heuristics AFAIK by default - from a video I watched on here a few years back about HDR tone mapping on PlayStation IIRC - so I'm pretty sure motion vector calculation is pretty trivial on PlayStation console hardware. But which of their own games are not using motion vectors and what is the source of that information to confirm that?
/edit
UE5 produces a Velocity buffer by default that it uses for its default Temporal Super Resolution(TSR) upscaler and is the info I was remembering, so at worst PS6 would just need to re-enable that and replace TSR on the many UE5 games. Checking Unity documentation and it too has default features for creating a motion vector texture and a temporal scaling.
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reinking
Gold Member
This thread confuses me. I do not believe the PS6 will run a PS5 Pro game because they do not exist. I believe it will run a pS5 game enhanced with whatever version of upscaling the PS6 uses. If anything, the PS5 Pro was a way for Sony to get experience with PSSR working with PS5 games. Why would they not be able to take that knowledge and use it on the newer version of PSSR?
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This isn't a rumor - AFMF always worked that way.
Extracting motion vectors from history has been done by TV algorithms at least since mid 00s, and if you want a 'driver level' example because TVs don't count for some reason - Oculus Space warp did it in 2016 (albeit they get motion tracking data for free so it's half cheating).
However - motion alone is not enough for resolution reconstruction - you can do motion inter/extra-polation, but for resolution-reconstruction you need additional spatial samples otherwise you're just doing a spatial upscale with made-up data.
All TAA derivatives - ML or otherwise, (all the way back into late 00s where this whole thing started) achieve this by sub-pixel jittering of the camera. And that's data you won't have access to if you're operating only in post/driver - a PSSR/DLSS injection isn't really possible.
TLDR - take the Digital Foundry's favourite test - a static camera - there's (basically)no motion vectors to extract, and all pixels in history are in the same place. Meaning no temporal resolution reconstruction either.
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Shifty1897
Member
PSSR is a software solution. Also it's getting upgraded next year anyway.
Everyone needs to calm the eff down.
Everyone needs to calm the eff down.
Crayon
Member
And it'll not play re8 at 1080p and it'll run like shit and catch on fire and so much more. It's fucking ridiculous.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
SegaSnatcher
Member
PS6 was never going to use the legacy PSSR.
SegaSnatcher
Member
FSR4 is literally the result from what was learned with PSSR. Sony simply didn't have the time to implement FSR4 for launch of PS5 Pro. It will require some optimization to work properly on the Pro, hence why we won't see it until 2026.
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You're confusing motion vectors with optical flow analysis, OFA is used by all forms of motion interpolation from DLSS FG, FSR FG, TVs Motion Smoothing, etc.
The rumor is AFMF 3 can directly access existing motion vector data from a game's TAA/motion blur implementation to improve frame-gen image quality.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I thought Alan Wake 2 had a bad implementation of PSSR. Did they fix that?
SegaSnatcher
Member
PSSR2 is just going to be a highly optimized version of FSR4 that can run on the PS5 Pro. PS6 will have the full fat FSR4 or FSR5 when it launches.
Ah direct access to game motion buffers is a different story of course (and that one I guarantee would be much harder on consoles).
But again - that would work for frame-gen, but still wouldn't help for reconstruction in-driver (for that you'd need pre-resolve color buffers, rely on the fact game already has camera-jitter inserted, and then need info on the jitter offsets to correctly interpret the samples).
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Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
That 40fps mode full blast gfx is fine.
Pssr got semi fixed.
But this game looks tits
Also forgot to add that callisto game also looks fucking insane on ps5 pro