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[BlueManifest]

What's the reason for arm and breaking all backwards compatibility again?

 

[SABRE220]

This question doesn't make sense, ARM CPUs from various vendors are wildly different. Apple CPUs can match or even beat AMD CPUs at many benchmarks (particularly front-end bound int/scalar workloads) while ARM CPUs from other vendors range from slightly behind to very far behind.

Ok, let me redefine the question. Can the high-tier ARM CPUs (the relative peers spec/die wise to modern mobile variant Zen CPUs) match the current zen mobile cores available for handelds in gaming performace?

Basically, I'm trying to figure out if ARM CPUs can match the mobile versions of the current Zen CPUs in real-world gaming performance, and in case not currently can future ARM CPUs catch up or surpass Zen 6 in gaming performance in both a handheld power envelope and home game console like the Xbox next?

 

[Guilty_AI]

What's the reason for arm and breaking all backwards compatibility again?

Different CPU architechture

 

[KeplerL2]

Ok, let me redefine the question. Can the high-tier ARM CPUs (the relative peers spec/die wise to modern mobile variant Zen CPUs) match the current zen mobile cores available for handelds in gaming performace?

Basically, I'm trying to figure out if ARM CPUs can match the mobile versions of the current Zen CPUs in real-world gaming performance, and in case not currently can future ARM CPUs catch up or surpass Zen 6 in gaming performance in both a handheld power envelope and home game console like the Xbox next?

Apple's performance cores can, Qualcomm's are close but not quite on the same level, other ARM cores are not there yet.

 

[awwr999999]

Apple's performance cores can, Qualcomm's are close but not quite on the same level, other ARM cores are not there yet.

Apple's been working on their chip's R&D since 2010. MS isn't going to have anything like that soon.
What MS will get without real R&D and real time is going to be something a lot like what Nintendo got.
It would appear that MS is banking on a lower resolution future for gaming.

 

[Akuji]

Only possible to survive if Playstation does the Same. If ps6 is x64 and Xbox Series next is arm, They will get way less Games ported to their console.

 

[Esppiral]

What's the reason for arm and breaking all backwards compatibility again?

It doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Not a joke, any Windows gaming device is considered an Xbox now. There will be "Xbox" devices using chips from AMD, Intel, Qualcomm and even NVIDIA, and they will be made by ASUS, MSI, Lenovo, etc.

Mmm...that is certainly an approach. Makes sense, and hopefully we hear more specifics soon, officially or leaked, whichever ends up happening.

I had some small thought maybe they'd design a specific APU or chip package with a specific group of components, make that a blueprint, then license it out to OEMs to build devices out of with some room for customization (i.e enabled shaders, higher clocks etc.).

But that is probably too much an investment on MS's side for devices they probably aren't that interested in, and don't feel will sell large enough volumes to justify the R&D.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Wasn't the next Xbox console meant to be the biggest leap in power we have seen? Or something along those lines? I didn't realise they were going to make that leap BACKWARDS with power and not a console with MORE power...

They said "biggest generational leap", which could be anything and so far is basically just marketing hype. It doesn't necessarily see "biggest power leap"; besides, chasing power didn't help Series X at all this gen, why do it again?

That's called the tipping point, and that'll be up to Microsoft's engineers. If translating ARM to x86 instructions for their hardware still provides enough of a gain, that'll likely be the reason.

One scenario I didn't consider in my original post is the speculated Steam integration: it might be a big-boy console only feature. If their handheld is ARM and their home console is x86, and if their SDKs are actually up to spec, they'll be able to recompile easily enough to produce the different packages, minimising dev support issues. They could then use their Smart Delivery setup to dynamically deploy the correct package to whatever hardware you're using - like when you put an Xbone disc into an XSX and you get the XSX download. In this scenario, there would be no translation layer. The handheld can only play Xbox games, and the home console can integrate with Steam, GOG, and/or Epic.

An Xbox handheld that can only play Xbox games...is a dead handheld.

I can't help but think MS has always been miles ahead of everyone. So ahead that every move seems crazy. (Bad execution in short term strategy doesn't count)
MS and Nintendo are the ones trying to innovate, Sony on the other hand has brand name and experience.

MS aren't really ahead of anyone in the gaming space, insofar as platform. SIE, Nintendo, Valve, and Apple have much more popular gaming platforms, by far. SIE are ahead of MS in terms of ML upscaling tech and in-house game engines. Valve are ahead in terms of an actual gaming-optimized PC OS (Steam OS) and PC handheld device actually selling on the market (Steam Deck).

Apple are ahead in terms of a store front (iOS app store) that has genuine deeply-entrenched tie-in with their hardware devices, and Nintendo are ahead in terms of having an immensely popular handheld/hybrid on the market.

Also SIE have tried innovating this gen, with certain OS features, PSVR2, PS Portal and more.

Only possible to survive if Playstation does the Same. If ps6 is x64 and Xbox Series next is arm, They will get way less Games ported to their console.

No it won't. Devs had no issue porting games between extremely divergent systems generations ago with PS2, Gamecube, Xbox & Dreamcast, and MS see PlayStation as a revenue goldmine for their titles. Even more than their own hardware, and that won't suddenly change with the next Xbox systems.

They'll keep porting to PlayStation (and Nintendo) no matter what, regardless what the next Xbox devices are based on.

 

[KeplerL2]

Mmm...that is certainly an approach. Makes sense, and hopefully we hear more specifics soon, officially or leaked, whichever ends up happening.

I had some small thought maybe they'd design a specific APU or chip package with a specific group of components, make that a blueprint, then license it out to OEMs to build devices out of with some room for customization (i.e enabled shaders, higher clocks etc.).

But that is probably too much an investment on MS's side for devices they probably aren't that interested in, and don't feel will sell large enough volumes to justify the R&D.

They have a custom low power APU design with AMD for the "real" Xbox handheld, but the Windows "Xbox" handhelds will just use whatever APUs are available to OEMs (Z2E from AMD, Lunar/Panther Lake from Intel, X Elite 2 from Qualcomm and N1 from NVIDIA).

 

[Topher]

They have a custom low power APU design with AMD for the "real" Xbox handheld, but the Windows "Xbox" handhelds will just use whatever APUs are available to OEMs (Z2E from AMD, Lunar/Panther Lake from Intel, X Elite 2 from Qualcomm and N1 from NVIDIA).

This all sounds confusing as hell from a consumer point of view.

 

[KeplerL2]

This all sounds confusing as hell from a consumer point of view.

Well yeah Microsoft doesn't really have a vision they're just throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.

 

[Little Chicken]

Apple's been working on their chip's R&D since 2010. MS isn't going to have anything like that soon.
What MS will get without real R&D and real time is going to be something a lot like what Nintendo got.
It would appear that MS is banking on a lower resolution future for gaming.

A Step Forward for Gaming on Arm Devices - DirectX Developer Blog

This year at Microsoft Build 2024 we announced a new set of Windows devices, Copilot+ PCs. Copilot+ PCs are a new class of Windows 11 PCs, including Arm-powered devices that are powered by the Snapdragon® X Series. These new Arm devices have cutting-edge new processing power coming from the CPU...

devblogs.microsoft.com

MS have also been working on ARM R&D for a long time.

 

[Little Chicken]

Well yeah Microsoft doesn't really have a vision they're just throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.

You just made that up and lied.

 

[Topher]

You just made that up and lied.

 

[MrCunningham]

An ARM windows PC? Not a big fan, I think it's too soon.

It is a weird speculative leak. But then again, Windows 10 and 11 already have ARM based variants. Microsoft isn't beholden to any one architecture, their ultimate goal is to make their OSes function on any hardware platform. This is not going to be an issue from their end. Does this mean that they may do a handheld hybrid? Or will they just push for a high clocked ARM solution? 16 core? Not great news for AMD if true.

 

[MrCunningham]

You just made that up and lied.

Microsoft's vision: Make all the money.

 

[awwr999999]

Microsoft's vision: Make all the money.

Stopping everyone else from making money.

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

IIRC, all Microsoft Store apps can run on both x86 and ARM.

but not games, these are software written in ARM binary.
There is an emulation layer but is not very efficient then again, awful for gaming.

 

[old-parts]

but not games, these are software written in ARM binary.
There is an emulation layer but is not very efficient then again, awful for gaming.

It does allow Arm games (always has but were mobile only long ago), the current MS Store now fully supports Win32 Arm software, doesn't matter what kind work/game.

Performance of the translation layer is more to do with the fact the Qualcomm Adreno GPU is a mobile chip with drivers that are only for Direct-X 12, it works just not 100%.

AMD or Nvidia Arm chips with their mature Windows drivers could perform a lot differently and AMD is working on such a Arm/Radeon chip for MS.

If people believe the rumours the next Xbox is Arm/Win32 based system then its trivial for MS to have Arm native ports of games for Arm Windows PC's which it can sell or put on game pass as well.

 

[MrCunningham]

PowerPC on ARM. I bet that's not been done before.

Some of the PowerPC CPU's were made open source by IBM back in 2014 with the OpenPOWER consortium. Power5, Power8, Power9, and Power10 are all open source ISA derivatives. I don't know if there has been any attempt to merge any of these Power* cores with ARM CPU's? You don't really hear about OpenPOWER much, though. I feel like RISC-V became more favourable over it.

 

[RoboFu]

One reason why I think this may be true is because arm is taking over the server space and this would make it cheaper and easy to have cloud servers for Xbox games.

 

[simpatico]

The handheld or a box under the tv?

Considering most house don't even have any box under the TV, or even a place to put one, maybe it's time to look ahead.