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[Panajev2001a]

apple has proven other wise

Apple has been essentially financing TSMC evolution and getting from them the most advanced process nodes available (they have soldered down fine tuned RAM modules console like and tons and gobs of cache and execution resources)… and yet their approach scaling up from mobile optimised designs upwards is starting to hit a limit… despite how good they are.

Also, people overestimate the X86 vs RISC difference: https://chipsandcheese.com/p/why-x86-doesnt-need-to-die?open=false

 

[twilo99]

This is likely for the handheld the big rig will be x86

 

[twilo99]

Microsoft is already promoting Windows on ARM. So it's a matter of time when developers begin making native ARM games. Potentially the other based on ARM platforms (MacBook, iPhone, Android) will also get more native ports.

The M4 based Mac mini is the perfect game console it just needs games

 

[Little Chicken]

Exciting things happening in the Xbox campus!

 

[Topher]

Topher good job taking the screenshot

Figured they would take it down.

 

[thebigmanjosh]

One of the biggest trends lately with the whole AI PC push has been MS's championing of ARM.

Would be interesting if this is part of their watershed moment to shift away from x86 once and for all with custom ARM (Qualcomm) architecture for their hybrid mobile device and AMD chips for the home console.

I also can't imagine Sony has been too happy with AMDs offerings. They'll never go back to Nvidia, but this PSSR semi custom/custom approach will likely expand with the PS6. I'd expect 2028/29 at the earliest

 

[MacReady13]

Wasn't the next Xbox console meant to be the biggest leap in power we have seen? Or something along those lines? I didn't realise they were going to make that leap BACKWARDS with power and not a console with MORE power...

 

[SHAKEZ]

Not a joke, any Windows gaming device is considered an Xbox now. There will be "Xbox" devices using chips from AMD, Intel, Qualcomm and even NVIDIA, and they will be made by ASUS, MSI, Lenovo, etc.

I wonder if they'll also have Steam support in those boxes.

 

[StereoVsn]

It's going to be interesting to see performance with the translation layers. Current ARM Windows boxes kind of suck for games and that is taking into account generally weaker integrated GPUs.

 

[Syphon Filter]

arm sucks, bad idea.

 

[Syphon Filter]

Arm should and will replace the shitty x86.

arm sucks dick, it will never replace x86. people been saying that for years and it still hasn't happened. it will be 2050 and people will still be delusional about shitty as arm taking over lol.

 

[twilo99]

It's going to be interesting to see performance with the translation layers. Current ARM Windows boxes kind of suck for games and that is taking into account generally weaker integrated GPUs.

Gotta be native code otherwise it's a pointless exercise

 

[StereoVsn]

Gotta be native code otherwise it's a pointless exercise

But if it's native code it means no BC or at least pretty terrible BC.

And are 3rd parties going to be interested in making the effort to port? Hell, barely anyone ports anything to Mac OS and those sell a lot of units.

 

[ZehDon]

Gotta be native code otherwise it's a pointless exercise

Not necessarily; if the handheld is ARM based, it'll all be about power efficiency - getting the most per watt. In this scenario, the main box remains x86 derivative because it's about raw power regardless of efficiency - it's plugged into the mains, after all, and is for the enthusiasts. In this scenario, a lightweight translation layer for the handheld makes the most sense, allowing devs to largely ignore the ARM architecture while still allowing the platform to reap the benefits of the increased power efficiency. We've seen this in Macs, and it's surprisingly good. If Microsoft are trying to out-do the current crop of Windows handhelds, it's about the only way they're going to do it - there's only so much more you can get by miniaturising x86 PCs and still calling them "handheld".

 

[DenchDeckard]

Nvidia? Is that you?

One can hope.

I kid. Nvidia has cpus coming soon but they are not anything to do with qualcomm obviously.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Which modern or old commercial x86 CPU is the most powerful arm equivalent to?

 

[Fortuneelsewhere]

I can see already this will cost me a ARM and a LEG…

 

[nowhat]

It depends on the scenario. When you're concerned about performance per watt then ARM can be great, but when you value performance over power efficiency x86 is often a better choice.

L1Techs just did a video on desktop ARM hardware:



So yeah, ARM is power-efficient and offers decent performance. But to pit it against something like an Epyc, no contest when it comes to performance.

 

[crackajack]

It depends on the scenario. When you're concerned about performance per watt then ARM can be great, but when you value performance over power efficiency x86 is often a better choice.

Consoles never fully went for performance though, last gen used netbook X86 variants, current gen uses okay APUs, but also not freakish high end with kinda limited clocks, still with a power draw on the very end of what consoles ever did. Maybe more efficient big ass ARM makes maybe perfect sense for consoles, especially for Xbox with their virtualised OS stuff. Compatibility might be easier to achieve than it possibly will/would be for Sony.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Not necessarily; if the handheld is ARM based, it'll all be about power efficiency - getting the most per watt. In this scenario, the main box remains x86 derivative because it's about raw power regardless of efficiency - it's plugged into the mains, after all, and is for the enthusiasts. In this scenario, a lightweight translation layer for the handheld makes the most sense, allowing devs to largely ignore the ARM architecture while still allowing the platform to reap the benefits of the increased power efficiency. We've seen this in Macs, and it's surprisingly good. If Microsoft are trying to out-do the current crop of Windows handhelds, it's about the only way they're going to do it - there's only so much more you can get by miniaturising x86 PCs and still calling them "handheld".

In Macs Rosetta and Rosetta2 were always transitional tech, most stuff moved to native universal binaries pretty quickly. Lightweight or not, a translation layer done in software still eats into that power efficiency gains you mention and once you go modern Ryzen vs modern ARM in comparable manufacturing processes the advantage is not quite as the one we expect.

There are likely a good bunch of server workloads where each core performance is less important than horizontal scaling / how many cores you can fit and that is an area where ARM has expanded into a lot.

 

[ZehDon]

... Lightweight or not, a translation layer done in software still eats into that power efficiency gains you mention...

That's called the tipping point, and that'll be up to Microsoft's engineers. If translating ARM to x86 instructions for their hardware still provides enough of a gain, that'll likely be the reason.

One scenario I didn't consider in my original post is the speculated Steam integration: it might be a big-boy console only feature. If their handheld is ARM and their home console is x86, and if their SDKs are actually up to spec, they'll be able to recompile easily enough to produce the different packages, minimising dev support issues. They could then use their Smart Delivery setup to dynamically deploy the correct package to whatever hardware you're using - like when you put an Xbone disc into an XSX and you get the XSX download. In this scenario, there would be no translation layer. The handheld can only play Xbox games, and the home console can integrate with Steam, GOG, and/or Epic.

 

[Moses85]

Remember, everything is an Xbox

Or soon

 

[PJX]

Are they really going all in on Handheld/hybrid like system?

MS couldn't even compete against Sony this gen, imagine going directly against Nintendo, lmao

Hope @HeisenbergFX4 is right and there is also big ass power monster next to this thing or they're completely out of their mind

MS don't know what the fuck they are doing. They are chasers never the leader. At this point they are just throwing shit against the wall and hope something sticks.

 

[Stafford]

 

[Thebonehead]

The M4 based Mac mini is the perfect game console it just needs games

Ah so it's an Xbox?

 

[twilo99]

Ah so it's an Xbox?

for sure bro

 

[Drew1440]

Could be huge for the PC market, if It encourages developers to produce ARM versions of their games. It opens the door to nvidia and Qualcomm competing in the CPU space.

Back compatability will be an issue as always, but microsoft have done an astounding job with adapting the PowerPC Xbox 360 games to the x86 arch. Though I fear we will see titles drip fed throughout the generation, and a thing that relies on licensing will be problematic.

 

[MrAlwaysRight]

this will be for the handheld, you need arm to get the power requirements down, it will just mean the big boy variant of xbox will run it's games in containers that emulate the arm instructions on x86

 

[UltimaKilo]

this will be for the handheld, you need arm to get the power requirements down, it will just mean the big boy variant of xbox will run it's games in containers that emulate the arm instructions on x86

Nah, Microsoft has been shifting to ARM for years now to catch up to Apple.

 

[twilo99]

this will be for the handheld, you need arm to get the power requirements down, it will just mean the big boy variant of xbox will run it's games in containers that emulate the arm instructions on x86

AMD has a few options that work well with a handheld power envelope so going ARM has more to do with the "future" than an immediate need for lower power draw

 

[Fake]

ARM is trash. Good luck trying to get performance over ARM.

Just because Nintendo have their first party doing wizard stuff doesn't mean ARM is good.

 

[twilo99]

Nah, Microsoft has been shifting to ARM for years now to catch up to Apple.

Qualcomm are about 3 years behind Apple and Microsoft's ARM software is about as far behind as well but they will eventually get to an acceptable level

 

[twilo99]

ARM is trash.

You are very confused

 

[MrAlwaysRight]

AMD has a few options that work well with a handheld power envelope so going ARM has more to do with the "future" than an immediate need for lower power draw

Nothing like ARM they don't, you're talking 15 watt's in handheld not plugged into the mains, AMD CPU's are going to be eating more than half if you want to power next gen games, where if they use ARM they can use 3 watts for the CPU and let the GPU eat the rest.

 

[twilo99]

Nothing like ARM they don't, you're talking 15 watt's in handheld not plugged into the mains, AMD CPU's are going to be eating more than half if you want to power next gen games, where if they use ARM they can use 3 watts for the CPU and let the GPU eat the rest.

Sure but devs have to optimize everything in order for that to manifest that's why I think it might take some time.

Long term ARM makes perfect sense for a handheld

 

[jm89]

 

[UltimaKilo]

Qualcomm are about 3 years behind Apple and Microsoft's ARM software is about as far behind as well but they will eventually get to an acceptable level

Exactly, they need to start somewhere and pull off that bandage.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Makes perfect sense for a Series S level handheld. Would be something new. Seriously doubt this would be the console. But it allows them to set up their emulation and get that all ready for the future.

It doesn't. Emulating old content would be very difficult for similar reasons BC from Xbox to Xbox 360 was extremely difficult.

For $7K this machine runs Doom Eternal at 40 fps

System76 built the fastest Windows Arm PC | Jeff Geerling

www.jeffgeerling.com

 

[LarsQMorient]

Will an ARM Xbox able to run the current games, I mean, it will be backwards compatible. I doubt it.

This new ARM console/handheld will demand ports just like the Switch 2, IDK if Microsoft is in a position to warrant all that effort from the thirdparties.

IIRC, all Microsoft Store apps can run on both x86 and ARM.

 

[Esppiral]

Gaf told me there is no next Xbox, how is this news possible?

 

[Topher]

The M4 based Mac mini is the perfect game console it just needs games

And more power.

https://www.xda-developers.com/mac-mini-m4-gaming-hands-on/

 

[SHA]

you guys are crazy... arm can be better and less power hungry. long gone are the days where arm just meant low performance mobile devices.

Yup, it's Arm's prime age.

 

[SHA]

I'm afraid a wide range of games will taste like chicken.

 

[SABRE220]

I understand that ARM is very power efficient, but when targeting a certain power envelope, which future handhelds will be targeting between series S and the PS5 is there any real proof that ARM can offer better or the same performance as an x86 Zen6? I mean, I understand ARM would be brilliant on ultrabooks and cellphones that need to last 12 hours, but the gaming handheld will need to provide a current-gen/quasi next-gen experience where most sessions are going to be in the under 3-hour range. So I'm genuinely curious and would appreciate some input from people with technical knowledge on the matter Does the arm have any actual irrefutable advantages in performing on par or better than a x86 zen6 option?

From my understanding, Arm devices only have an advantage in ultra-low power ranges, but as power scaling ramps up, they become a less efficient choice when targeting performance comparable to x86 variants like modern zens. Also, can someone chime in on what the inherent advantage is that allows ARM devices to be much more power efficient at optimal power ranges, and can an x86 CPU designed around those specific parameters be competitive?

 

[KeplerL2]

Also, can someone chime in on what the inherent advantage is that allows ARM devices to be much more power efficient at optimal power ranges, and can an x86 CPU designed around those specific parameters be competitive?

The only real advantage ARM has is fixed length instruction encoding with makes wide decoding easier. But x86 CPUs can workaround that with things like uop caches and clustered decode setups.

 

[The Inventor]

I can't help but think MS has always been miles ahead of everyone. So ahead that every move seems crazy. (Bad execution in short term strategy doesn't count)
MS and Nintendo are the ones trying to innovate, Sony on the other hand has brand name and experience.

 

[SABRE220]

The only real advantage ARM has is fixed length instruction encoding with makes wide decoding easier. But x86 CPUs can workaround that with things like uop caches and clustered decode setups.

Thank you, so when targeting a certain power envelope, which future handhelds will be targeting between series S and the PS5, do you think ARM can offer better or the same performance as an x86 Zen6? I mean, I understand ARM would be brilliant on ultrabooks and cellphones that need to last 12 hours, but the gaming handheld will need to provide a current-gen/quasi next-gen experience where most sessions are going to be in the under 3-hour range so wattage can be between 15-25W. So could ARM compete and perform on par or better than an x86 Zen 6 option for gaming?

 

[AJUMP23]

I hope I use my hands to play. Not just arms.

Arm is not the best Nintendo game.

 

[KeplerL2]

do you think ARM can offer better or the same performance as an x86 Zen6?

This question doesn't make sense, ARM CPUs from various vendors are wildly different. Apple CPUs can match or even beat AMD CPUs at many benchmarks (particularly front-end bound int/scalar workloads) while ARM CPUs from other vendors range from slightly behind to very far behind.

 

[Dynasty8]

The next PlayStation will be based on LEG.