what's the difference? racism is racism.
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Racist Dr. Seuss drawing up for auction upsets fans
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what's the difference? racism is racism.
Burgess_101
Member
Gotta take the rough with the smooth.
Dictator93
Member
This is common history I have known since like... 15 years maybe? Why are people surprised? Ever look at his political cartoons during WWII? They are just filled with this crap.
This is also why he wore the onion on his belt.
Jo Shishido's Cheeks
Member
Ahhh it's from a time where people were incapable of independent thought, that explains it.
Cheers guys.
Cheers guys.
King Tubby
Member
I just assume that every person pre-1960's (and only most people after) were terrible racists. Whatever. His books still helped me learn to read.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I actually came out of this thread feeling really uplifted. Honestly, my opinion of him is raised knowing that he changed his mind on this. That's something that's really difficult to do. It's easy not being racist when you've been raised not be racist in a culture that (on the surface at least) espouses that racism is bad. Growing up in the very early 1900s, and being an embedded racist in your youth, makes conversion all the more impressive - breaking free of how you were raised, admitting how wrong you were. Seeing those comics from when he was 25, and then the ones from when he was 65... if only that happened to all racist people.
Probably that he already knew about that stuff in Seuss' "back catalogue".
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
Huh.
I had no idea this was an actual idiom.
Anecdote time: From the ages of 5 to 10, I lived in an extremely rural area of Upper Michigan. The populace there was, let's say, not so tolerant. One time a kid in my class uttered to me a phrase he had learned from his grandfather: "There's a n----- in the woodpile." Now, there are no awful people in my family, so I had never heard that word before in my life. But based on on the glee with which this kid recited it, I gathered that the phrase itself was inherently hilarious.
FAST FORWARD TO: Several years later, my family moved to suburban Minnesota. I still had no idea what "the N-word" was. One time during a group activity in sixth grade, I repeated the phrase I had heard in Michigan, oblivious to its meaning, but expecting a raucous reaction from those around me. Imagine my horror when I was immediately taken for a racist. It's one of the most embarrassing memories of my youth.
I've never shared this story before. I didn't imagine there would ever be a relevant context.
More on topic: shame about Dr. Seuss.
I had no idea this was an actual idiom.
Anecdote time: From the ages of 5 to 10, I lived in an extremely rural area of Upper Michigan. The populace there was, let's say, not so tolerant. One time a kid in my class uttered to me a phrase he had learned from his grandfather: "There's a n----- in the woodpile." Now, there are no awful people in my family, so I had never heard that word before in my life. But based on on the glee with which this kid recited it, I gathered that the phrase itself was inherently hilarious.
FAST FORWARD TO: Several years later, my family moved to suburban Minnesota. I still had no idea what "the N-word" was. One time during a group activity in sixth grade, I repeated the phrase I had heard in Michigan, oblivious to its meaning, but expecting a raucous reaction from those around me. Imagine my horror when I was immediately taken for a racist. It's one of the most embarrassing memories of my youth.
I've never shared this story before. I didn't imagine there would ever be a relevant context.
More on topic: shame about Dr. Seuss.
Well shit O_O This took me by surprise, I had no idea. Given his later works I was already familiar with, and some of the examples posted here, its clear he "grew up" as a human being as he aged and that's great. I still had no idea about some of his earlier works or the WWII stuff. That's some super racist shit and its fair to call it out. It certainly doesn't at all negate the good work he did late in his life (If I ever had kids I'd still read them his children books, they're good) but his early work is still some fucked up shit worth being discussed and criticized.
The bit with his wife I had no idea about either. When did that happen? Was that also in his twenties? Doing that shit later in his life suggest there were still ways he didn't improve as a person though :/
Finally, I can't say I understand all the "product of his time" or "these other people you like were also racist" comments in this thread. Just because everybody else was doing it doesn't make it above reproach (and its not like there was NOBODY with progressive thoughts even back during the heydays of say slavery or the midst of WWII). As with regards to other "heroes", people give them shit all the time. As an example, everybody who actually knows Disney was an anti-Semite (which is not everybody) gives him shit over it. How is "these other people you like also kind of suck" a relevant defense?
I hope you're joking :/
The bit with his wife I had no idea about either. When did that happen? Was that also in his twenties? Doing that shit later in his life suggest there were still ways he didn't improve as a person though :/
Finally, I can't say I understand all the "product of his time" or "these other people you like were also racist" comments in this thread. Just because everybody else was doing it doesn't make it above reproach (and its not like there was NOBODY with progressive thoughts even back during the heydays of say slavery or the midst of WWII). As with regards to other "heroes", people give them shit all the time. As an example, everybody who actually knows Disney was an anti-Semite (which is not everybody) gives him shit over it. How is "these other people you like also kind of suck" a relevant defense?
I hope you're joking :/
No, but it makes it common instead of exceptionally bad.
Thought this was well known. Like many he was a product of his times. What's important to me is his later activities and apparent change of belief in these areas.
Doesn't excuse what he was but it seems he did change for the better over time and hopefully see the error of his ways.
Surprised it didn't sell although rather glad too. I'd rather see stuff like this in museums for the education of others.
I guess though if you just know him via Cat in the Hat and The Grinch this is a bit of a shocker. My jaw certainly dropped when I first encountered these elements of his past.
Doesn't excuse what he was but it seems he did change for the better over time and hopefully see the error of his ways.
Surprised it didn't sell although rather glad too. I'd rather see stuff like this in museums for the education of others.
I guess though if you just know him via Cat in the Hat and The Grinch this is a bit of a shocker. My jaw certainly dropped when I first encountered these elements of his past.
The other explanation being of course that in the past, most people actively chose to be arseholes and now they don't. Seems pretty logical to me.
Yeah, as we all know Dr. Seuss was the first person to ever make words rhyme
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
mr rogers put pineapple and chicken on his pizza
Whoa...didn't expect a sentiment like that on GAF...
NHarmonic.
Member
What happened with Madre Teresa? She's probably the best role model ever. She was incredible.
Oh you poor fool...
Edit: and in case the tone of that article puts you off, here's a more objective Wiki section that supports the same accusations.
Black Republican
Member
We should have a new thread of tainted legends
I didn't say "invent", but like Tommy Dreamer, and Kanyon, Suess was the innovader of his particular genre.
Damn, that's really disappointing. Had no idea. First Bill Cosby and now Dr Seuss... My childhood was a lie!
Can you provide examples though? The difference is that overt racism was socially acceptable then and it's not now. Furthermore, you are missing that the jokes have to be viewed from in light of the intent of the author.
Originally Posted by DoktorEvil said:
Can you provide examples though? The difference is that overt racism was socially acceptable then and it's not now. Furthermore, you are missing that the jokes have to be viewed from in light of the intent of the author.
birthday-suit
Banned
I don't care when ppl turn out different than we imagined.I feel like to be 'mad' at them implies they owe us in some kind of way.
Also product of the times is not an excuse. It's such a white thing to say. Slave masters did terrible things but its not their fault! It was the times, ignoring the suffering of the people who were opressed.
And it assumes were more civilized now. We are a little, but human beings still ain't shit.
Also hate the saying 'on the wrong side of history', for focusing on how someone will be judged, instead of judging the actual issue and promotes groupthink.
Also product of the times is not an excuse. It's such a white thing to say. Slave masters did terrible things but its not their fault! It was the times, ignoring the suffering of the people who were opressed.
And it assumes were more civilized now. We are a little, but human beings still ain't shit.
Also hate the saying 'on the wrong side of history', for focusing on how someone will be judged, instead of judging the actual issue and promotes groupthink.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
How is this surprising to anyone and why would it make his later works suddenly invalid?
He did this stuff in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. You can't judge the past with the morality of the present. You must contextualize. Plus, as far as I know not a shred of his early racism is present in his children's books.
He did this stuff in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. You can't judge the past with the morality of the present. You must contextualize. Plus, as far as I know not a shred of his early racism is present in his children's books.
Sure you can. What is morally wrong now was morally wrong then.
It may not be full blown racism, but all three people are associated with cartoon shows that have definitely used stereotypical jokes towards certain groups of people in the past and probably continue to to this day(I don't really know, don't watch any of these shows anymore). It is comparable to this situation in that during the time this particular cartoon was drawn it may have merely been seen as stereotypical and not full blown racist, and the reason it is now is because of the way people's viewpoints progressed a few decades after Seuss drew it.
Who knows, something like this might been seen as full blown racist and not just stereotypical in the future.
excelsiorlef
Member
Isn't it the best when basically people Avenue Q the past?
Everyone was racist so who cares!
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
I'll assume you aren't an historian. Presentism is a big taboo in academic history, generally its only used by plebeian popular histories which have no real academic value. Presentism creates a distorted understanding of historical events and persons. Just because someone did racists art in the 1920s doesn't mean they are akin to modern-day racists.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Well, it seems even more blatant these days, but the phrase was a common one back when this was written. Since the phrase isn't well known now, for good reason, it's racist and deals with something that isn't happening now, it seems even worse at face value. The blackface style of drawing black people back then was common as well.
So yes, it's racist, no denying that.. while today this is outright Stormfront styled shit today, this was just your basic everyday casual racism from the day.
I think Seuss turned his message around considerably by the 50's and 60's. I don't think this hurts those books, because the message in them is counter to what you see in his early works.
People change, times change, people didn't have access to things they do now to educate themselves.
People who still espouse racist views today.. where you have information at your fingertips.. there's no excuses.
Yeah. A lot of people in this thread have a difficult time thinking critically.
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
Writing kids books doesn't change that he was a white man in the 1920's, this isn't surpring at all, especially if you've seen his WW2 propaganda peices.
If this bothers people that much then I hope they don't think too hard about what their grandparents were like back in their day.
If this bothers people that much then I hope they don't think too hard about what their grandparents were like back in their day.
excelsiorlef
Member
That isn't the sentiment and you know it.
NormalFish
Banned
Doc Seuss has made some pretty offensive strips but this one is comparatively mild. It's making fun of idiomatic phrases. One of those phrases -- as others have made plain -- has very racially charged history and tone, but didn't actually refer to race in its contemporary form.
Is the comic racist and tasteless by modern standards? Yeah, of course. But I don't think his intention was to put down blacks or anything to that tune.
Is the comic racist and tasteless by modern standards? Yeah, of course. But I don't think his intention was to put down blacks or anything to that tune.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Great post... that most will ignore.
Dice//
Banned
Yeah, i hate what I'm looking at, but the start of our century and the beginning of the last century are very, very different and you can't look at it through the same lens.
I agree racism sucks and it's even more 'surprising' coming from a beloved children's author, but what can you do?
You just gotta learn from it that crap like this doesn't happen again.
mariachi507
Member
It's Dr. Suess, how bad could it be????? Holy shit, this is very disappointing to me.
Well to be fair for the most part they have. Most of the scenes in your post have been edited out of airings, and a couple of them they don't even show the cartoon in general. Same with Looney Tunes, there's several cartoons they don't air anymore.
Stereotypes aren't racist per se though.
The difference is that the "racism" in these things is parody. They are using stereotypes to make fun of stereotypes. It knows that it's "racist", but is also done without malice. It's therefor self-referential. This is totally different than things from the past that either unknowingly used stereotypes or contained deliberate malice.
A really clear example is the "Stereotyping Jews is terrible" scene from South Park. It's not racist because it's parody. It may be insensitive however which is what I think people are conflating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_ZNoPONhqw
"Getting Gay With Kids" might still offend though.
Wow. Nobody tell this guy about Walt Disney, he'll want to burn down the entire Disney Vault.
Not at all, no. Prejudice against black people, the Japanese, Jewish people, the Irish, Russians, Mexican Americans, and Native Americans all differ, with their own histories and dynamics.
Like I said, me and Dr. Seuss squashed our beef amicably. But if he died an unabashed racist, what's the harm in throwing out his shit? If one of those Duggar idiots ends up writing kids books, why should an LGBT parent keep their book on the shelf once they find out their views?
lmao, thank you. I can't wait for 100yrs from now when a professor shows his class the Eric Garner video and warns "you can't judge these officers by today's morals, they were a product of dey tamz!!!"
I have only seen this excuse used to protect white offenders. Like clockwork. Columbus was a product of da tamz! Everyone was committing genocide, slavery, and mass rape back then yo!
I've never seen the excuse used for Chairman Mao, Genghis Khan, Robert Mugabe or any other non-white scoundrel.
Barbacoatl
Banned
Incredible at letting people die like dogs and stealing money.
Is this sarcasm? Honestly can't tell. Do you honestly think all human beings before the '60 were all pieces of shit because of their patriarchal views?
Morality is an extremely relative concept. I find it funny in a sense that we all talk about acceptance and equality and then we're all basically dismissing uneducated people as subhumans. I guess we're still a long way off from understanding others.
D
Deleted member 284
Unconfirmed Member
Yet the niggers of today are seen as less than human by many in America. What I'm trying to say is that you should be careful in thinking that one racism is worse than another. It's just racism, pure and simple. Ain't no fucking degrees to this shit.
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