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Racist Dr. Seuss drawing up for auction upsets fans
- Thread starter Dram
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triplestation
Member
Green eggs and damn
CharminUltra
Member
I'm not suprised. I mean, even the Beatles were racist:
they're not really skeletons though.
roald dahl looked down on jews, ian fleming wrote race as a character trait, gauguin basically used his time painting in tahiti to fuck all the native tahitian girls he could.
my grandmother was racist as fuck but i still loved her because i recognized that she was ignorant because she was raised ignorant.
the reason we don't accept it these days is because everyone should know better.
People tend to whitewash over the darker parts of peoples history especially once they become a beloved person to so many. Look at Columbus up until the late 1980s he was mostly presented as a heroic man to look upto.
Look at FDR. Its always about how awesome he was with maybe a footnote about his Anti-Japanese policies. They completely overlook his attempts and desire to dismantle 1/3 of the United States Government to ensure Executive Power would have no counter.
He was basically a racist man who wanted authoritarian power but that's all passed over
talisayNon
Member
and to think we used to celebrate Dr Seuss day in elementary school lol. Have a funny feeling we wont be doing that anymore.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
I mean, not much has changed on that front.
sure we will. celebrating someone who realized he was raised racist and actively worked to change is nothing to be ashamed of.
DarkArterialGore
Member
I've got to be honest, I'd probably buy it too.
I'd imagine it would be quite the conversation starter which is the sort of reaction you'd want from any art piece irrelevant of the obviously negative connotation featured in the drawing.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Seuss' racist cartoons have been known for decades.
It is not like people have stopped Columbus Day's celebrations either.
I don't remember that. All I remember is him standing up from his wheel chair to motivate the troops, hanging out with Little Orphan Annie(the white one), and Josh Hartnett banging his brother Ben Affleck's girlfriend behind his back.
What is wrong with Gandhi? Not the he was racist in South Africa story surely?
I love watching Gaffers gets their panties in a knot.
Suess was illustrating a common saying at the time, just like fly in the ointment. This wouldn't have been considered racist in 1920.
He evolved along with the rest of society, as shown in his later works. But we should still vilify him right?
Suess was illustrating a common saying at the time, just like fly in the ointment. This wouldn't have been considered racist in 1920.
He evolved along with the rest of society, as shown in his later works. But we should still vilify him right?
MightyHedgehog
Member
I wouldn't say everyone so easily, but yeah, an entire population of hundreds of millions in this country and who knows how many across the world was okay with fellow human beings openly treated like sub-humans and property for the white and wealthy does definitely takes a lot of time to change. It's only been a couple of generations since and a ton of those folks are still alive and kicking today, voting, passing down bad views to their children and their children's children. We aren't ever going to be done with systemic and fundamental societal problems with regard to bigotry and unfair notions weighed against people just because of how they look, where their ancestors came from, or who their parents were. Constant struggle.
This is what I do not get when some people mentioned Gandhi in this thread. Gandhi was most assuredly racist at the early part of his life but he did not die a racist. He played a significant role in not just giving India freedom but also tried his level best to break the class, caste and religious barriers that existed in the country. Is he flawed? Yes but which human is not? I guess India should have looked at the likes of Penn and teller for Independence. Putting Gandhi in the same sentence as the vile Mother Teresa is extremely ridiculous. I dont know much about Suess so I do not know if he understood the error's of his ways.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Why are people doing this? Why are they honestly trying to say one is "worst" than the other? FFS they're both bad, everyone knows why in both cases. No reason to try and put one on a higher platform of attention.
Besides, this thread was specifically created about the piece that was put up for auction. Try to stay on-topic.
Did you not pay attention in history class in middle school? I can assure you, not everyone was racist back in Dr. Seuss's time.
So. Stop. Using. That. As. An. Excuse.
If you can't tell the difference between an explanation and an excuse you should probably go back to school. The official policy of the country at the time was racism. Nobody should be blamed for being a product of their environment. Once he knew better, he did better.
Of course not everyone was racist, but that sort of racism was the default mode for most white people then. Rage about it if you want, but I'd rather acknowledge it's pervasiveness than point out each individual as a racist. It was not shocking or strange or unusual for people to think like that then. Acting as if he is some specially horrible person misses the point entirely. It also trivialises the plight of minority people at the time if you ignore how incredibly common it was.
I am sorry that you were upset by it. What you write is why he was originally one of my role models. I love what he preaches. However reading about the parts of him that are racist and sexist kicked him from my list. I consider a role model someone that I would like to be like. I am a flawed human who seeks to be better. I do not see it as wise to do so by learning from one arguably more flawed than myself. Mr. Rogers is my role model because his words and actions line up and they both shout love for all. If you want some links I'd be happy to find some tomorrow. It's a little late here.
Sorry for the derail.
:kanyeshrug:
Dude lived in those times and died before the culture truly shifted. Oh fucking well. It's still entirely possible to enjoy his other splendid and beloved works and acknowledge that yes, he was a human being with flaws. What can you do? Not much. Stop buying his books? I guess all those high school graduates will never know about all the places they can go. His estate has enough money for a gajillion life times. I'm not saying forgive him or to forget this. This should be in his history and apart of who he was, but it shouldn't define him.
Dude lived in those times and died before the culture truly shifted. Oh fucking well. It's still entirely possible to enjoy his other splendid and beloved works and acknowledge that yes, he was a human being with flaws. What can you do? Not much. Stop buying his books? I guess all those high school graduates will never know about all the places they can go. His estate has enough money for a gajillion life times. I'm not saying forgive him or to forget this. This should be in his history and apart of who he was, but it shouldn't define him.
SnakeSlashRO
Banned
Why is Dr Seuss even such a big deal? I'm just thinking, how come his properties are still being used? I wouldn't say he reached the level of Disney with his properties. It always seemed so irrelevant to have so many movies every few years and theme park attractions...
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I actually kind of hope people on 2115 look back like "of course everyone was racist then, do you really expect anyone to have been immune from the racism-promoting toxins prevalent in the atmosphere back then?"
A Black Falcon
Member
Interesting, I don't think I'd seen that before... it's not surprising though, sadly. Those beliefs were common.
For the people saying that the anti-Japanese comics are worse, I really don't think that's the case.
Here's the thing. Okay, as the comic in the OP shows, in the '20s Seuss was racist against blacks. But he changed his mind by the early '40s, and by that point was writing cartoons about how anti-black (and anti-Jewish) racism was wrong. That's great! People improving themselves and giving up hateful beliefs that they learned as a child is a good thing.
However, at the same time, he was also writing those anti-Japanese comics. The "don't be racist against blacks" cartoons and racist cartoons about Japanese come from the exact same time period.
Why is this? Well, it really shows how racism against Asians, and the Japanese particularly following Pearl Harbor, was completely ingrained into white American society. Seuss probably didn't even think about his racism against Japanese. Racism against Japanese people was absolutely omnipresent at the time, virtually all Americans seem to have believed it. This is why Seuss made those cartoons, and why FDR approved rounding them all up and putting them in camps. It's horrible, but it was the almsot exclusive view at the time; it would only have been surprising if he HADN'T been racist against the Japanese, sadly.
So yeah, it's really too bad that he didn't see through the anti-Japanese racism at that point as he had the anti-black racism, but he hadn't. Maybe living in New York, where there were relatively few Japanese people (they were mostly out west, after all) hurt? I mean, there'd have surely been many more black people around than Japanese.
For anyone who wants a bit more discussion of Dr. Seuss's WWII cartoons, I'd recommend the book "Dr. Seuss Goes to War" by Raymond Minear. It compiles most of his WWII editorial cartoons and also has some chapters explaining them and the times. There's some more in the book about Seuss and what is known about his views on Japan. Oddly though, the book doesn't seem to mention his early cartoons that are racist or very stereotyped towards blacks. He'd clearly changed his mind on the issue by the time of the cartoons the book is about, though, as the cartoons posted in this thread show -- think of the one with the piano, or the bugspray gun spraying out racist thoughts from peoples' heads.
On a related note, Herge (the author of Tintin) was mentioned earlier in the thread. Yeah, his first book, Tintin in the Congo, is INCREDIBLY racist... but it was written by a Belgian man who had, at that point, never been to the Congo, which at that time was Belgium's colony (and which is often considered to be the worst-run, most murderous of any of the European colonies in Africa). That book is a depiction of the Congo as Belgian propaganda showed it. Herge dramatically changed his views on racism later on -- you see this as you read through the series, there's a huge shift between the massive racism of Tintin in the Congo or the culturally-insensitive stupidity of Tintin in America, versus the much better treatments of race you see from his various books from after he got interested in China.
Unfortunately, Herge never seems to have changed his views on women as he did race -- there are no major female characters in the Tintin series except for Bianca Castafiore, the fat opera singer who is quite a caricature. Hew seems to have thought that adventures were things for men only. Too bad... but I love the Tintin series anyway.
For the people saying that the anti-Japanese comics are worse, I really don't think that's the case.
Here's the thing. Okay, as the comic in the OP shows, in the '20s Seuss was racist against blacks. But he changed his mind by the early '40s, and by that point was writing cartoons about how anti-black (and anti-Jewish) racism was wrong. That's great! People improving themselves and giving up hateful beliefs that they learned as a child is a good thing.
However, at the same time, he was also writing those anti-Japanese comics. The "don't be racist against blacks" cartoons and racist cartoons about Japanese come from the exact same time period.
Why is this? Well, it really shows how racism against Asians, and the Japanese particularly following Pearl Harbor, was completely ingrained into white American society. Seuss probably didn't even think about his racism against Japanese. Racism against Japanese people was absolutely omnipresent at the time, virtually all Americans seem to have believed it. This is why Seuss made those cartoons, and why FDR approved rounding them all up and putting them in camps. It's horrible, but it was the almsot exclusive view at the time; it would only have been surprising if he HADN'T been racist against the Japanese, sadly.
So yeah, it's really too bad that he didn't see through the anti-Japanese racism at that point as he had the anti-black racism, but he hadn't. Maybe living in New York, where there were relatively few Japanese people (they were mostly out west, after all) hurt? I mean, there'd have surely been many more black people around than Japanese.
For anyone who wants a bit more discussion of Dr. Seuss's WWII cartoons, I'd recommend the book "Dr. Seuss Goes to War" by Raymond Minear. It compiles most of his WWII editorial cartoons and also has some chapters explaining them and the times. There's some more in the book about Seuss and what is known about his views on Japan. Oddly though, the book doesn't seem to mention his early cartoons that are racist or very stereotyped towards blacks. He'd clearly changed his mind on the issue by the time of the cartoons the book is about, though, as the cartoons posted in this thread show -- think of the one with the piano, or the bugspray gun spraying out racist thoughts from peoples' heads.
On a related note, Herge (the author of Tintin) was mentioned earlier in the thread. Yeah, his first book, Tintin in the Congo, is INCREDIBLY racist... but it was written by a Belgian man who had, at that point, never been to the Congo, which at that time was Belgium's colony (and which is often considered to be the worst-run, most murderous of any of the European colonies in Africa). That book is a depiction of the Congo as Belgian propaganda showed it. Herge dramatically changed his views on racism later on -- you see this as you read through the series, there's a huge shift between the massive racism of Tintin in the Congo or the culturally-insensitive stupidity of Tintin in America, versus the much better treatments of race you see from his various books from after he got interested in China.
Unfortunately, Herge never seems to have changed his views on women as he did race -- there are no major female characters in the Tintin series except for Bianca Castafiore, the fat opera singer who is quite a caricature. Hew seems to have thought that adventures were things for men only. Too bad... but I love the Tintin series anyway.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
TheSaddestSort
Member
I've known about this for a while, but it was disappointing to learn that someone whose books I loved as a kid also produced some pretty reprehensible work. Not that far removed from a timing standpoint either, the anti-Japanese comics were published during the second world war and Seuss started releasing the children's books we know and love in the 1950's.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
Whiteblade999
Member
I can't help but laugh at the absurdity of it. Is it terrible? Yes, but it was from a period from when racism was an accepted act. With that said its hilarious for the same reason that Tom and Jerry is still hilarious, they just didn't give a single fuck. Went all in on the stereotypes and made something that has no right to be funny, but is.
The inventor of the wall mounted electric can opener? Founder of the church of the creator. You've all been had.
Why Seuss gotta do us like this?
I grew on homeboy's works.
At least uh, robert e. Howard is still cool, maybe.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
Thanks YoungHav, at least we know people can change. I mean an apology would have been nice but growing the fuck up also is a good step in the right direction. Atleast he started with anti-racism cartoons. People CAN change.
Edit: Not sarcasm here. Sorry if it sounded insulting. It sounded better in my head.
Now I'm going to sit over here and read Ender's Game and eat a Chick-Fil-A sandwhich.
lol
I agree with this. Both are bad, especially by today's standards, but the Japanese one takes the cake.
travisbickle
Member
Woah. Gauguin went to Taihiti for what he perceived would be a primitive paradise, and was pissed to find it industrialised/westernized. diaries imply he was pressured into taking a taihitian wife as it was the culture of the time.
TheGreatDirector
Banned
Don't you remember his most famous line?
I do not like Blacks and Jews.
I would not like them near my shoes.
reptilescorpio
Member
Yeah that's something that always annoys me. Don't pretend they are/were perfect, treat them like regular humans so bigoted shit is denounced. Pretending it never happened won't help anyone.
M0nochromatic
Member
Thankfully we can separate the artist from his work. I can keep reading the Grinch every Christmas, and still think that he was a terrible racist in his early years.
Gambit 1138
Banned
I never really understood why they used to draw black people like that. Its really weird and creepy
Miles Quaritch
Member
Dehumanise them?
make them appear less than human so it's easier to treat them as a subclass of people who you don't have to give the same rights too.
That's a pretty disgusting image, I grew up reading this guys works and I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'm trying to separate the man from his work, but goddamnit...
That's a good question, wonder when it originated?
Chuck Norris
Banned
Seems like pretty standard WW2 stuff
GoonerTRON
Banned
Someone rich should buy that and burn it on the spot.
Chuck Norris
Banned
We should burn history and pretend it never happened because it's distasteful? Ridiculous
Judge the man for it, sure. But it's actual views and message are irrelevant to today and are a good window into the ideals and culture norms from another time period - as abhorrent as we may find them now
Stereogatari
Banned
Lol talk about "unexpected". Total tonal shift at the end.
I reckon they just exaggerated facial features that weren't "normal" to them. Nothing more.
GoonerTRON
Banned
I just want to see Kayne buy it and burn it on stage. Is that too much to ask?
Blackface. During slavery times whites would go around doing skit/play things that were racist as hell for "comedy", and they'd wear that ridiculous blackface makeup. So the exaggerated red lips and pitch black skin would get transferred over to their propaganda and just general... "art", like for advertisements or comic cartoons.
That's how I learned it, anyway.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Late 1920s? Doesn't seem that surprising.
Best to keep it as it is as an example for future (and current) generations.
apocalidiot
Banned
this is an actual, real thought that went in your brain? or is this a joke?
Or let your kids enjoy his stories and have a conversation about them if it was necessary about his old racist drawings and how his views changed over the years, at least looking at the drawings he made (seen earlier in the thread)
You "changed your mind" from throwing away your kid's books because he is a complex and seemingly (given the stuff mentioned above, as well as his mistress/wife stuff if that is true) a shitty person?
Also, this
Is Cartoon Network / Boomerang going to stop showing Tom and Jerry cartoons just because they made a few racist cartoons?
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