Thanks. That sucks.
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Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!
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Thanks. That sucks.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
My SCART cable order shipped. Gonna be p. cool, homies.
I've only seen 2-3 widescreen BVMs out in the wild in the in NYC since I fell down this rabbit hole 3 years ago. That should tell you something.
They DO exist, but they will definitely command a hefty premium, especially if they have the input modules and good geometry - which will be less likely than 4:3 sets, considering their shape. I've never actually seen a widescreen CRT (even on consumer sets) that had geometry that didn't suck.
Good luck!
Friend of Sonic
Member
Good feedback! I appreciate it. Probably not worth chasing down!
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
How does one even come across something like that? I'd buy one.
There's three more in NYC. One is factory sealed. The others are new in box and barely used. All the packaging is still there too plus the foam and everything. These things are spotless with perfect geometry.
Pm me and I'll hook you up with details. You'll pay a premium, but these things are basically untouched. So it's worth it in this case.
The people who own them are downright meticulous in how they handle them. Ive honestly never seen anything like it. They don't even put them on the floor. Always on a price of cardboard instead then re-wrapped up
davidwhangchoi
Member
Definitely. Let's make it happen in September.
That's awesome. Pants off and Pm sent!
davidwhangchoi
Member
pretty hyped to see 480p on a PVM in person.
It's glorious. 240p is also better on this thing than any other screen I've seen before. Guys, I'm living the dream :*)
theSlacker
Member
And I'm currently seeing how likely it is for me to be able to transport a PVM from NYC to Northern VA...
I stayed up all night playing. I'm drunk on image quality and sleep deprivation.
I almost wish I bought two of them, even at such a high price. It's going to be the saddest day if this thing ever dies on me.
Worth every penny. 240p scanlines are just other-worldly on this thing too.
I almost wish I bought two of them, even at such a high price. It's going to be the saddest day if this thing ever dies on me.
Worth every penny. 240p scanlines are just other-worldly on this thing too.
For PS3 and Xbox 360 games, is there any way to force a game's native resolution if it's under 720p?
I was thinking about trying some 720p/1080i games on the 20l5. Namely the following:
Demon's Souls
Wonderful 101
Xenoblade Chronicles X
Super Mario 3D World
Ninja Gaiden 2
Catherine
Super Mario Maker
etc.
I doubt it will replace my 60 inch as the go to display for this sort of stuff, but it could be neat just for the lolz.
I was thinking about trying some 720p/1080i games on the 20l5. Namely the following:
Demon's Souls
Wonderful 101
Xenoblade Chronicles X
Super Mario 3D World
Ninja Gaiden 2
Catherine
Super Mario Maker
etc.
I doubt it will replace my 60 inch as the go to display for this sort of stuff, but it could be neat just for the lolz.
Barrel Cannon
Member
To my knowledge there is no way to force the games internal resolution as it is automatically scaled whatever resolution you set in the console settings. I've never heard of any way to do it through homebrew either.
Also pretty jelly that you got a new in box 480 pvm
. Congrats Peltz! I still need to secure a 480P monitor one day and will probably settle for a computer monitor with a component->VGA adapterAlso, I have played all of those games except Catherine and love them all dearly.
Kawika
Member
According to Savon-Pat, the picture tube is the exact same on the 20F1U and the 20L5. Even he was saying the 800 vs 900 was suspect. I can honestly say, the 20L5 that I have is better than the 20F1U I had.
Some untouched cell phone shots and my initial impressions below. As always, pictures just can't do this CRT screen justice! Colors are way more vibrant in person. Click to enlarge:
Some thoughts:
So, I've played 480p upscaled on a fixed pixel display since 2003 or so when I got my first 720p LCD screen. Then I switched back to 480i about 3 years ago when I got my first PVM and felt like it was worth the tradeoff of not having a scaled image. There were less jaggies and seeing assets in 480i native on a CRT felt like it was closer to what the developers intended than seeing assets in 480p, upscaled to 1080p. I thought that there wasn't much difference between 480i and 480p as long as you had a high quality signal like component or RGB and a high quality display like a standard def Sony PVM. Basically, the reason why is because I thought that the difference in temporal resolution only meant that you get the same exact image in 480i as 480p but with a bit more visual "noise."
Now that I'm seeing 480p in a properly native EDTV sync, however, my opinion has changed... a lot. By having a higher temporal resolution, 480p allows you to see way more detail than what is possible in 480i. This is true in several instances I've already noticed: With regard to ground texture work, for example, the ground textures in Super Mario Galaxy are far more distinct and visible. You can see distinct textures drawn onto the ground as you play that just don't really hold together when the game is in motion in 480i. With regard to panning the camera in 30 FPS games- well, in 480i, panning the camera in Xenoblade Chronicles causes details to basically fall apart. You can actually see every other row of the pixels "catching up" to the camera when panning. In 480p, by contrast, everything remains "whole" and easier to see.
It is also true with regard to text. Small is almost "hazy" in 480i with how much noise is generated. In 480p, however, it looks exactly how you'd expect to and is far easier on the eyes. Overall, I'd say the picture looks more like HD than SD. It's a true half step between the two formats, as opposed to my previous notion - that it was almost the same as 480i.
And it's amazing how minimal the jaggies are in 480p. They're definitely still there and you can easily see them if you have enough of a trained eye (which everyone in this thread certainly does). But damn, it almost looks HD because it's so sharp and smooth. And the colors are so deep and rich that it's almost like liquid (I really can't think of any other way to describe it).
TL,DR: I used to think that there isn't a big difference between 480i on a SDTV and 480p on a EDTV, but it really does look like double the resolution in person and 480p is a true half way point between 480i and 720p.
Some thoughts:
So, I've played 480p upscaled on a fixed pixel display since 2003 or so when I got my first 720p LCD screen. Then I switched back to 480i about 3 years ago when I got my first PVM and felt like it was worth the tradeoff of not having a scaled image. There were less jaggies and seeing assets in 480i native on a CRT felt like it was closer to what the developers intended than seeing assets in 480p, upscaled to 1080p. I thought that there wasn't much difference between 480i and 480p as long as you had a high quality signal like component or RGB and a high quality display like a standard def Sony PVM. Basically, the reason why is because I thought that the difference in temporal resolution only meant that you get the same exact image in 480i as 480p but with a bit more visual "noise."
Now that I'm seeing 480p in a properly native EDTV sync, however, my opinion has changed... a lot. By having a higher temporal resolution, 480p allows you to see way more detail than what is possible in 480i. This is true in several instances I've already noticed: With regard to ground texture work, for example, the ground textures in Super Mario Galaxy are far more distinct and visible. You can see distinct textures drawn onto the ground as you play that just don't really hold together when the game is in motion in 480i. With regard to panning the camera in 30 FPS games- well, in 480i, panning the camera in Xenoblade Chronicles causes details to basically fall apart. You can actually see every other row of the pixels "catching up" to the camera when panning. In 480p, by contrast, everything remains "whole" and easier to see.
It is also true with regard to text. Small is almost "hazy" in 480i with how much noise is generated. In 480p, however, it looks exactly how you'd expect to and is far easier on the eyes. Overall, I'd say the picture looks more like HD than SD. It's a true half step between the two formats, as opposed to my previous notion - that it was almost the same as 480i.
And it's amazing how minimal the jaggies are in 480p. They're definitely still there and you can easily see them if you have enough of a trained eye (which everyone in this thread certainly does). But damn, it almost looks HD because it's so sharp and smooth. And the colors are so deep and rich that it's almost like liquid (I really can't think of any other way to describe it).
TL,DR: I used to think that there isn't a big difference between 480i on a SDTV and 480p on a EDTV, but it really does look like double the resolution in person and 480p is a true half way point between 480i and 720p.
Barrel Cannon
Member
Anyone know if this adds significant input lag? I would be using it for my Xbox to play games that are fairly timing sensitive(Soul Calibur, SF3, NGB, Unreal Championship 2)
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=7113
edit: ^Yea, progressive almost always looks better IMO for 6th gen console games that support it!
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=7113
edit: ^Yea, progressive almost always looks better IMO for 6th gen console games that support it!
It probably will. I'd use this instead:
https://www.beharbros.com/garo
It will be lag free and worth the price. There won't be any scaling though so don't try to feed a 480i signal into your VGA monitor - it won't work.
Although the monoprice converter is cheaper, there's a pretty good chance you will be unhappy with the results. The beharbros option, however, is a very safe bet. They only make good gaming stuff.
If it's in good condition then it should be a great set for 240p and 480i. It's 600 lines, so it will be sharper and have more distinct scanlines than consumer CRTs, but not the super-insanely sharp look of the BVM monitors. Basically, it will have a very high quality look while still being authentic. If you grew up in the arcade, it will be similar to some of the sets used in the mid to late 90s. 600 lines is a near perfect balance of sharpness and color bleed for 240p content in my opinion. I have two monitors with 600 lines and I will never let them go or stop playing SD content on them even though I'm blowing up the thread with my new 800 line beast (it's a bit too razor sharp in some ways).
Really, it all comes down to what condition it's in. That's the most important thing. If it's in good condition, then I can't imagine you'd be unhappy playing on it.
davidwhangchoi
Member
i thought it'd prob be the same between the G1 and F1, it's minimal difference anyways between 800-900 for 240p/480i.
bodine1231
Member
I've owned every PVM in existence and it's probably the best CRT I've ever had. I preferred it over the BVM 20F1U as well.
Now that the adrenaline of owning a 20l5 is starting to subside (only slightly lol), if I'm being perfectly honest, it feels like overkill for 240p content. It's just so sharp that it's like... too much. It's almost like having fake scanlines on an emulator. They kind of get in the way of the artwork on my humble opinion.
I've really never seen anything like it. It's almost like it's scaling the image in HD, but it's still natively rendered at the same time. I know some of you like that. But it's kind of too much.
Like I love scanlines as much as the next guy, but it's like a breast man dating a chick with an E or F sized rack. Even if it's all natural, it can be too much of a good thing.
I've really never seen anything like it. It's almost like it's scaling the image in HD, but it's still natively rendered at the same time. I know some of you like that. But it's kind of too much.
Like I love scanlines as much as the next guy, but it's like a breast man dating a chick with an E or F sized rack. Even if it's all natural, it can be too much of a good thing.
bodine1231
Member
That's why I got rid of mine and my 20F1U. I like the extra sharpness but the scanlines were too dark and distracting. I think the 20M4U is the perfect balance.
What other PVMs and BVMs have you owned?
Isn't the 20M4U just as sharp as the 20l5? It's 800 lines.
I have a 14m2u and 20m2u which were basicaly the lower resolution-600 line versions of the M4U series.
That good to hear. It looks to be in great condition from the seller.
Barrel Cannon
Member
Thanks, I'll check it out, but looks like it won't be an impulse buy(I'll have save a bit of money over the next month and buy it). I didn't plan on feeding anything from it in 480i and as far as I know nearly all xbox games(at least the ones worth their salt) natively support 480p without having to be forced through a modded xbox.
I have the 20m2u as well. I love it to bits but feel that it's not super bright like my standard CRT that just bleeds light.
They fade over time.
Barrel Cannon
Member
Ah ok, still provides a good brightness and excellent image though.
I just realized. Will the 480p(720 by 480) image of my xbox be squashed on a 4:3 VGA CRT or should it be fine as long as I keep it in 4:3 mode.
socksfelloff
Member
bodine1231
Member
Might be the same lines but it's a different tube. The 20L5 looked noticeably sharper than my M4 side by side. Let's see,I've owned
M2u
M2mdu
M4u
1954q
20l5
2030
20f1u
14l2
14l1
1394q
I'd say the 20L5 is overall best because of the versatility and looks. The M4U is the best bang for buck.
bodine1231
Member
That could very well be old caps. My M2U is bright as hell. Have you tried increasing the screen pot on the fly back?
Why play an HD game on a 480p display tho?
It's an HD display. It does 720p and 1080i native.
Sorry, is this a different display than the PVM (or was it a BVM?) you were talking about a couple posts up?
Barrel Cannon
Member
I have no idea what that is. I do have a brightness knob on the front of my screen and it gets more than bright enough for my needs when I have it about 75% up. I just figured it looks pretty dark at the default brightness(50%).
Nope. It's the PVM 20l5. The one that also does 480p native.
bodine1231
Member
It should be. Are you using RGB or component? If component try changing the component level in the menu. You could also try increasing sub-bright and sub-contrast in the service menu. There Are two knobs on your fly back (google it) when you take off the case that's used to adjust focus and brightness.
There's a focus knob!? Damn. I wish I weren't so deathly afraid of death or I'd open my 20m2u to adjust it.
Barrel Cannon
Member
Currently reading an article I found on Google about safety precautions. I'll try the service menu first as well because the precautions listed to adjust the flyback seem scary.
Edit: also I am using component, but the brightness issue is with s-video as well so it's probably not just the component settings.
bodine1231
Member
Adjusting the knobs on the flyback is safe,just don't touch the anode cap on top of the tube. You can do this while the monitor is running,just set everything to stock and adjust. You can use a plastic screwdriver or plastic knife to be extra safe but its not necessary.
You should still try changing the component level first,I'm betting thats whats making your picture too dark,there is also and adjustment for the Svideo in the service menu. I think its under NTSC but I'm not positive.
Yeah usually its the middle of the screen that becomes soft over time. Adjusting the focus pot usually clears this up otherwise its a cap.
Can it?
I have a 20" on an end table that sits on those furntiture moving pads so it slides easily on carpet. It's not the most elegant solution but it works for me.
I built a couple end tables from an old dining room table top and black iron pipe a couple months ago. They work ok but I would have beefed them up for 20" crt duty as well as adding casters.
I guess it depends on what fits in to your room. Grainger.com has industrial type stuff as well as globalindustrial.com. Wire shelving is an option with added casters. DIY something. Thrift shop an end table or coffee table.
Thanks for the suggestion dubc35. I think I'm going to buy this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002Q1M6A8/?tag=neogaf0e-20
I'm going to put the 20l5 on the top shelf, and the 20m2u on the middle shelf.... because why not? The top shelf has a max height of 42 inches. So there should be plenty of room on that second shelf for an 18" tall Pvm while still being able to play both at reasonably-close-to-eye-level when seated. (or maybe I should put the 20l5 on the middle shelf? Hmmm... not sure yet).
Bonus points for the old school classroom feel lol. My only question is, do you think it will be sturdy enough? It's made of steel, but only weighs 25 lbs. Two PVMs is a shit load of weight and it doesn't mention max capacity.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002Q1M6A8/?tag=neogaf0e-20
I'm going to put the 20l5 on the top shelf, and the 20m2u on the middle shelf.... because why not? The top shelf has a max height of 42 inches. So there should be plenty of room on that second shelf for an 18" tall Pvm while still being able to play both at reasonably-close-to-eye-level when seated. (or maybe I should put the 20l5 on the middle shelf? Hmmm... not sure yet).
Bonus points for the old school classroom feel lol. My only question is, do you think it will be sturdy enough? It's made of steel, but only weighs 25 lbs. Two PVMs is a shit load of weight and it doesn't mention max capacity.
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