• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Galdelico

Member
I'm testing mine with my daisy chained switch setup, seems good as ever!
Thanks very much! ;)

Also, I feel like an idiot... All those issues with scanlines in LineX3 mode, I reported a few posts ago, were only due to 'sharpness' setting on my monitor, which was cranked to the max from PS3/360 usage. It proper messed things up big time. Now that I brougt it back to 0, everything looks pristine (pics as soon as I have a bit of time).
 

Peltz

Member
Thanks! ;)

Also, I feel like an idiot... All those issues with scanlines in LineX3 mode, I reported a few post ago, were only due to 'sharpness' setting on my monitor, which was cranked to the max from PS3/360 usage. It proper messed things up big time. Now that I brougt it back to 0, everything looks pristine (pics as soon as I have a bit of time).

I'll never understand why people like a high sharpness setting. Whenever I see my friends' HDTVs I'm always like... dial that shit down... a lot.

In what world is adding artifacts to the image supposed to be more easy on the eyes?
 
I'll never understand why people like a high sharpness setting. Whenever I see my friends' HDTVs I'm always like... dial that shit down... a lot.

In what world is adding artifacts to the image supposed to be more easy on the eyes?

I've found a few instances where traditional 2D animation looks better with sharpness set to a reasonable level (like 20-30 out of 100).
 

Mega

Banned
I think you're looking for the menu? The first time I pressed the menu button I had to go back one step because I was in a sub menu (I think post proc.)

Yeah, that's what threw me off. Pressing menu didn't bring up an actual menu; it was a message like "video is running post proc" which led me to think this was a simple information screen and there was no real settings menu.

I'm contemplating getting a second Wii specifically for the living room/OSSC setup. The other one's cables are velcro-tied up really well that it would be a huge nuisance to pull out... and I'm not keen on giving up the option to still play Wii games on CRT, same as having dual AV Famicoms and N64s. I don't have a ton of leftover space in the living room for a second set of retro consoles, so the Wii's diminutive size and vertical orientation is perfect with all the systems it can emulate.
 

Galdelico

Member
I'll never understand why people like a high sharpness setting. Whenever I see my friends' HDTVs I'm always like... dial that shit down... a lot.

In what world is adding artifacts to the image supposed to be more easy on the eyes?

I know what you mean. On a TV it gets super noticeable and awful, but for some reason it's never been that bad - or even remotely similar, in the way it affects the picture - on my monitor. I swear it just worked as you'd expect a sharpening option to work. That's why I always left it the way it was, for years.

I'm not an 'it's a blocky mess, yet I prefer if it fills up the whole screen' kinda caveman. :D
 

bodine1231

Member

Fallen92

Member
What cables do I need for a white Japanese Sega Saturn Model 2 going into a PVM 20m4u using scart to bnc cables?

I see two different ones on the retrocable eBay store. The first one says it's the better quality cable but it also says "Please note to use this on a non European TVs you will need a converter of some kind."

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Sega-Saturn-s...3A87e504a41580a357c8451433ffefc469%7Ciid%3A17


http://m.ebay.com/itm/US-seller-Seg...3A87e504a41580a357c8451433ffefc469%7Ciid%3A21
Well I think that description is saying that you need a converter on non European TV's because they don't have a SCART input on them and not because it needs any special converter.
Also the first link cables are the ones you want since they're sync on luma cables which tend to be more compatible with model 2 Saturns since some of them don't like composite sync.
 
USPS finally took pity and delivered my ossc. Will post impressions in a bit. Unfortunately have a term paper that needs writing this week, though, so no indepth tinkering beyond checking my monitors compatibility
 

MattyH

Member
looking to buy a new rgb cable for my ps2 but im wondering which is better sync on luma or Composite Sync CSYNC my set up is a sony CRT with a scart switcher
 

Mega

Banned
Sync on luma. edit: Composite sync is preferable for most systems but I thought PS1/PS2 absolutely need sync on luma cables.

But for PS2, you should use Component if your TV supports 480p.
 
proper CSYNC isn't wired up on a PS1/2. You can use a sync stripper to get csync, but then that's not really the same thing (and you'll probably pay more for it). Unless your monitor absolutely needs clean sync like that, go with Luma, since composite video for sync on the PS1/2 has resulted in occasional dumbness.
 
Retrogamingcables.co.uk sell CSYNC cables for the PS1/2 that have a sync seperator built in. If you absolutely need CSYNC, and they're not that much more than the Luma Sync ones. They also sell models of both with the port for light gun support.

playstation%20pcba%20left.jpg


playstation%20pcba%20csync.jpg


They have printed circuit boards for their scart connectors now.
 

Galdelico

Member
USPS finally took pity and delivered my ossc. Will post impressions in a bit. Unfortunately have a term paper that needs writing this week, though, so no indepth tinkering beyond checking my monitors compatibility
It finally arrived! :)

I can't remember if you already mentioned it (if so, apologies)... Any chance you - or any other gaffer who got the OSSC - can try Line Triple mode on a 27" monitor?
I'm trying to figure out what size I should go for, when I'll upgrade, and I have no clue about how that mode is going to be displayed on a bigger screen (compared to the 24" I tested it on)...
 
I don't have a remote until next week, so I can't test it yet.

linedoubled 240p is a bit soft for me, but not offensively so, and no real artifacting of any kind. 480p is similarly soft but definitely an upgrade from the framemeister, and I can feel the lag more tangibly than I expected (though I'm still ass at metal slug).

Anyone got a suggestion for a cheap remote solution? I found the same model that is offered alongside the OSSC for a good price, but if there's a way to do it for free I'm open. options I was looking at were PSP (which doesn't work since I have a 3000 and not a 1000), or my phone, but since it's IR, that's off the table too.
 
I don't have a remote until next week, so I can't test it yet.

linedoubled 240p is a bit soft for me, but not offensively so, and no real artifacting of any kind. 480p is similarly soft but definitely an upgrade from the framemeister, and I can feel the lag more tangibly than I expected (though I'm still ass at metal slug).

Anyone got a suggestion for a cheap remote solution? I found the same model that is offered alongside the OSSC for a good price, but if there's a way to do it for free I'm open. options I was looking at were PSP (which doesn't work since I have a 3000 and not a 1000), or my phone, but since it's IR, that's off the table too.

Does the Wii U Gamepad work as an IR remote for the OSSC?

Semi-serious question.
 
Many phones have an IR blaster (my Note4 does but I never used it) which allows you to download an app and use the phone as a universal remote. Check if your phone or any old one you may have laying around, it might have an IR port that we weren't aware of.

Heck even the 3DS has one (and probably other gaming portables), and there might be a universal remote homebrew app for it.
 
If I had one I'd check for you. I didn't think it was IR though?

It has an IR blaster on the gamepad that can run without the system being on. You can use it to control your TV, and it has support for a surprisingly wide range of stuff.

I was even able to use mine to get into the service menu of my TV.

Usually it's nice to just pick the gamepad up and turn on the TV and Wii U in one step.
 
Many phones have an IR blaster (my Note4 does but I never used it) which allows you to download an app and use the phone as a universal remote. Check if your phone or any old one you may have laying around, it might have an IR port that we weren't aware of.

Heck even the 3DS has one (and probably other gaming portables), and there might be a universal remote homebrew app for it.
Actually turns out my phone has one. Now to find an app to use. Good call.
It has an IR blaster on the gamepad that can run without the system being on. You can use it to control your TV, and it has support for a surprisingly wide range of stuff.

I was even able to use mine to get into the service menu of my TV.

Usually it's nice to just pick the gamepad up and turn on the TV and Wii U in one step.
Huh, makes sense as a feature, for sure. Tbh I've only held a gamepad twice at demo stands, so I'm pretty ignorant to how they work.
 

bodine1231

Member
Well I think that description is saying that you need a converter on non European TV's because they don't have a SCART input on them and not because it needs any special converter.
Also the first link cables are the ones you want since they're sync on luma cables which tend to be more compatible with model 2 Saturns since some of them don't like composite sync.

Thanks. Went ahead and purchased the first link.
 

MattyH

Member
Retrogamingcables.co.uk sell CSYNC cables for the PS1/2 that have a sync seperator built in. If you absolutely need CSYNC, and they're not that much more than the Luma Sync ones. They also sell models of both with the port for light gun support.

playstation%20pcba%20left.jpg


playstation%20pcba%20csync.jpg


They have printed circuit boards for their scart connectors now.

I'm gonna grab the one with gcon port gotta love some time crisis
 
having some monitor-related troubles (poor calibration and options for fixing it), but generally very pleased with the OSSC. From my very brief testing I'd say it's probably preferable to the mini if you've got a highly compatible display. It's not as sharp as the mini, though, and it lacks some of the quality of life (having to swap between RGBS and RGsB manually is obnoxious, but perhaps there's a way to make it do that automatically that I'm missing) but overall it's incredibly simple to use and gives a very nice and noise-free picture.

Minor nitpick, though, I really wish the base was heavier. It's not a very large device, so despite being built with a bit of heft -- and definitely feeling solid -- it still kinda contorts and lifts off the ground due to my DVI cable.
 
Yeah at that point it's better to just make yourself an emulation machine using a raspberry pi.
Pretty much, yeah. Or just use basically any console, since they all have NES emulators these days.

Also, man that noise filter is fucking awful. what the hell?
Holy shit, the audio lag too. Guess it's being buffered but that's huge...
 

D.Lo

Member
it honestly bums me out that the NES mini is an emulation box instead of a "real" clone console.
How would they have done that though? An FGPA device would have been hundreds of dollars.

It's a pretty quality modern mini-computer with very well done software and extremely high build quality all round, they really nailed the concept for the price IMO, much better than any bespoke solutions do. Small issues with the emulation just don't matter for its market. My only real complaint is I would have preferred a CRT filter with scanlines but no noise/junk.

Yeah at that point it's better to just make yourself an emulation machine using a raspberry pi.
Pi emulation sucks, I'd take a Wii or many other options over that first. And all those options are largely piracy based. It is in no way comparable to a legitimate first party device.
 
How would they have done that though? An FGPA device would have been hundreds of dollars.

It's a pretty quality modern mini-computer with very well done software and extremely high build quality all round, they really nailed the concept for the price IMO, much better than any bespoke solutions do..
I'm not saying it's totally practical, but I just don't see any need for a little emulation box. Let alone one that only plays 30 NES titles, on one single emulator, and that emulator apparently has some obnoxious issues. Like, I understand that they're going for a different market but I can't help but wish someone would come up with a more economical solution to FPGA clone consoles. Guess it's a matter of time.
 

Fallen92

Member
Pi emulation sucks, I'd take a Wii or many other options over that first. And all those options are largely piracy based. It is in no way comparable to a legitimate first party device.
That's fair, I didn't know pi emulation sucked, and I agree that I'd use my Wii or my modded Xbox if I wanted to emulate but like you said it would involve pirating ROMs. Then again I don't think any one in this thread would do that given we all play on OG hardware. That being said it is a perfectly fine substitute for the general consumer which is what this is marketed towards.
 

D.Lo

Member
Yeah apologies guys, I'm just getting triggered by the acceptance of piracy everywhere I guess, particularly lines like 'Why would you buy that I can get a Raspberry Pi with 1000 games for less' etc.

I mean, of course it's cheaper, it's piracy. There's nothing clever about getting something cheaper by pirating it.
 

Fallen92

Member
Yeah apologies guys, I'm just getting triggered by the acceptance of piracy everywhere I guess, particularly lines like 'Why would you buy that I can get a Raspberry Pi with 1000 games for less' etc.

I mean, of course it's cheaper, it's piracy. There's nothing clever about getting something cheaper by pirating it.
It's a perfectly understandable response and I probably shouldn't have immediately offered an alternative that leads to piracy but it was just what first popped into my head. I don't think pirating is a valid alternative it was just a way to voice my disappointment with the NES mini as an alternative to the console itself.
 
Yeah apologies guys, I'm just getting triggered by the acceptance of piracy everywhere I guess, particularly lines like 'Why would you buy that I can get a Raspberry Pi with 1000 games for less' etc.

I mean, of course it's cheaper, it's piracy. There's nothing clever about getting something cheaper by pirating it.
it's not really about piracy. I mean I own probably 50 odd nes games through various digital distribution services and the like. I'd rather use a system that can choose between multiple emulators for the various roms I've bought over the years (or games you own and rip, or whatever) than be restricted to a single emulator with only 30 games. It just seems like something that definitely isn't designed for those that would put in the time to rip the games, to decrypt the games they buy digitally, to compare and and configure an emulator to work really well.
 

Peltz

Member
It's that time again.

MLiG NES Mini

Lets us all drink deep of this nerdy fountain of information.

Really informative and unbiased review. They didn't just shit all over the shortcomings of the system, but took time to acknowledge that it's a great entry-level way to get a nostalgia fix.

I certainly won't get one for myself, but could definitely see myself buying this for a less hardcore friend or two as a gift.

I'd love to get Missile's thoughts on the CRT filter. I bet he'd want to see it.
 
My local thrift stores (2 goodwills and a savers) don't have CRT TV's anymore. Where can I source one of these things without paying $100 in shipping?
 

Mega

Banned
Wii over OSSC is a definite improvement over Wii U vWii. Unfortunately my TV doesn't support OSSC's 240p line tripling and 480p doubling, leaving my TV to upscale 480p (decent, not great).

On the plus side, I have that HDFury scaler which has a mode that lets you drop the 240p or 480p output into a 1080p frame. From there, I can still have windowed 720p and 960p on my TV. Perfect integer scale graphics with sharp pixels (as well as Wii can manage) and even scanlines (impossible on vWii). Truth be told, homebrew emulators on Wii U proper (not vWii) might make this pointless.

Truth be told, Wii U proper (not vWii) might make this Wii setup a little pointless... Wii U's output is very clean and pixel perfect when done right. I plan to revisit it when homebrew launchers and whatnot are figured out.
 

Psxdad

Member
If I have the Samsung KS8000 which only has HDMI and I have the GameCube component cable, can someone recommend a good component to HDMI box? Is that my best bet? Should I wait on the upcoming GameCube HDMI cable from Bad Ass Consoles?
 

Brhoom

Banned
Retrogamingcables.co.uk sell CSYNC cables for the PS1/2 that have a sync seperator built in. If you absolutely need CSYNC, and they're not that much more than the Luma Sync ones. They also sell models of both with the port for light gun support.

playstation%20pcba%20left.jpg


playstation%20pcba%20csync.jpg


They have printed circuit boards for their scart connectors now.

From their website:
"CSYNC resolves drop out issues on the xrgb-mini"

Are they talking about the drop out in games like Silent Hill that goes from 240 to 480i?
 
How would they have done that though? An FGPA device would have been hundreds of dollars.
The alternative would be to develop an ASIC with an NES-on-a-chip that can output HDMI. Higher upfront costs but way lower per unit cost. I bet the team that developed this didn't expect it to be so popular.
 

Khaz

Member
The alternative would be to develop an ASIC with an NES-on-a-chip that can output HDMI. Higher upfront costs but way lower per unit cost. I bet the team that developed this didn't expect it to be so popular.

Yep. FPGAs are primarily designed to be used as prototypes before the real, non-reprogrammable chips are mass-produced. Their use in reprogrammable computers is novel and, in our hobby, only really useful for multi-machine simulators like the MiST. They are used in enthusiasts designs like the AVS because of their availability, their higher cost being offset to the consumer allows them not to have to fund the costs of making 10.000 chips without knowing if they will ever recoup their investment.
 
From their website:
"CSYNC resolves drop out issues on the xrgb-mini"

Are they talking about the drop out in games like Silent Hill that goes from 240 to 480i?

No they're talking about sync issues some people have. The resolution change drop out issue can't be fixed from a change of sync types.
 

Peltz

Member
Yeah apologies guys, I'm just getting triggered by the acceptance of piracy everywhere I guess, particularly lines like 'Why would you buy that I can get a Raspberry Pi with 1000 games for less' etc.

I mean, of course it's cheaper, it's piracy. There's nothing clever about getting something cheaper by pirating it.

It's not that black and white and you know it. (Prepare for a discussion of piracy ethics and property law theories).

Different people have different preferences. I prefer original North American hardware (mostly). You prefer original Japanese hardware. Some people prefer Wii VC. And some prefer homebrewed emulators. All of these methods can play legitimately obtained games and all of them can play pirated ROMs... yes, even original hardware. If someone enjoys the UI of a Rasberry Pi, more power to them. Just pay for the games whenever possible.

But there are some circumstances where I feel ethically conflicted about whether piracy is wrong or (somewhat) acceptable:

I think it may only marginally unethical to pirate a game that is not available to be purchased on any Virtual Console or online service, rather than buying it second hand. For example, I will absolutely play a pirated version of BS-F-Zero2 because there is no way for me to legally obtain the ROM in a way that legitimately compensates Nintendo who is the only one who owns the rightful license.

Yes, I do think pirating it less ethical than tracking down a second hand Satellaview that has it saved to play on my Super Famicom. Why? Because only Nintendo should control the terms of who gets to play its software and under what conditions it deems appropriate. And most carts carry licenses that can only be transferred on a 1 to 1 basis. So accessing that software in an unauthorized way (e.g. priating it from a 3rd party source) does dilute Nintendo's ability to control the access. And, in that sense, it is similar to essentially trespassing on Nintendo's abandoned property, but in a harmless way that causes no actual damages.

So, how should we actually treat situations like this? The most ethical thing to do would be to simply accept the fact that the game is unavailable and not play it (e.g. do not trespass). That's actually what Nintendo prefers that we do and they should have the final say as the owners of the IP. It's also the most respectful solution to the problem.

But, are we really causing them legitimate damages by downloading it? Not really. Our trespass is akin to walking onto Nintendo's property to simply get a better view of what they've abandoned without breaking or taking anything on the property. Yes, they should be able to prevent us from doing that (I certainly wouldn't want people trespassing on my property without my consent), but it's not really the same thing as stealing or causing genuine damage.

If Nintendo wants us to pay for it, then maybe it is their responsibility to make it available. I think that actually enforcing any sort of action against piracy in situations like this may be unethical of them. But certainly, it is within their legal right and it is justified for them to have that right even if morally grey for them to exercise that right. (Again, I would want the legal right to prevent people from trespassing even if I don't plan to exercise it).

So for these situations, we do sit in a grey area. Some games are close to impossible to play without piracy or paying exorbitant prices. Nintendo should be able to prevent us from playing something they created and we really ought to respect that (but of course, many of us don't and I can't really blame them). Yet we also would be mad if they enforced actions against people who illegally obtain these types of games. So there's a bit of dissonance there.

Even if the law is clear on this (it's illegal), the ethics of piracy still have so many nuances to them that the law doesn't recognize. And it's, in my opinion, an ethically dissonant situation.
 

Mega

Banned
I think it's best to just move away from the piracy and ethics talk. Some do it, some don't. Some see it as harmful (downloading roms means you're less likely to buy VC or the Mini)... others don't see a problem (the bulk of real copy sales benefit resellers, not devs/publishers). It's been discussed to death and nothing new will be resolved this time. Each of us should just do as we please, live with it and move on.

My only interest in delving into NES Mini vs Everdrive vs Retroarch vs Wii vs Pi, etc., is learning which options perform best.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom