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[Sad Affleck]

The last thing Batman v Superman honestly needed was an extended cut. It honestly needed the complete opposite and needed a reduced cut.

-- Cut the Justice League teases
-- Cut the nightmares
-- Cut Luthor
-- Cut Doomsday
-- Cut Wonder Woman

The JL and nightmare sequences were honestly unnecessary to the plot. Doomsday is a stupid video game final boss stapled on to the end of the movie. Wonder Woman is the best part of the movie, but she's simultaneously the most unnecessary part of the movie because she only ties into the Justice League and Doomsday crap. Make the movie purely about Superman and Batman having a major idealistic clash regarding crime fighting and end the movie with them resolving their differences and realizing their two sides of the same coin. You don't even need the Lex Luthor pulling strings in the background shit either, the movie did a fine job of establishing how Batman and Superman clash.

Spot on. Your list describes everything that I didn't like about the movie.

 

[GreyOcelot]

Spot on. Your list describes everything that I didn't like about the movie.

this thread inspired me to research fan edits and their is literally a fan edit that cuts most of that stuff. there's also a fan edit that blends man of steel and bvs into one 2.5 hour movie. i love the concept of cutting all of the africa stuff in order to streamline the plot and, as one fan editor said, the senate hearing and critiques of superman work well when reframed as criticisms related to the end of man of steel. i'd like to see a fan edit that does this, but keeps wonder woman in, and keeps doomsday in there so it works well with future DC movies and continuity.

 

[LiK]

Surprised WW would get a 10. It's a good movie, but suffers from the same problem the other movies have in their last act.

I give WW a solid 8 in terms of a superhero movie. It's a 10 in terms of DCEU films.

 

[thepenguin55]

this thread inspired me to research fan edits and their is literally a fan edit that cuts most of that stuff. there's also a fan edit that blends man of steel and bvs into one 2.5 hour movie. i love the concept of cutting all of the africa stuff in order to streamline the plot and, as one fan editor said, the senate hearing and critiques of superman work well when reframed as criticisms related to the end of man of steel. i'd like to see a fan edit that does this, but keeps wonder woman in, and keeps doomsday in there so it works well with future DC movies and continuity.

As someone who just came off of seeing (and really enjoying) Wonder Woman and has been VERY curious about the DCEU but has been effectively scared off of seeing any of those earlier movies by just how bad the reviews have been for them that I would love to get someone's opinion of the fanedit that combines Man of Steel and BVS. As someone who doesn't really love Superman outside of the context of the Justice League, my desire to see Man of Steel is extremely low but I know MOS is important to the story of BVS and BVS will probably be pretty important to the story of the Justice League film. I've always been a DC fan and the Wonder Woman movie has given me hope that maybe the Justice League and Batman movies will actually be good, so I would like to catch up with everything that's happening in the DCEU but I am very hesitant to dive in.

 

[AuthenticM]

I didn't like the car chase either, and the design of the batsuit isn't something I'm in love with. Although what BvS and Suicide Squad did highlight to me on that front was the importance of the cinematography for the suit designs. In BvS I was pretty cool with it, but in Suicide Squad it looked comical because it was shot so poorly. This was also something Nolan had some success with in Batman Begins - the art of concealing how goddamned silly everything is if you put it under proper lighting and linger too long.

Things I really liked about Batman in BvS:

• He uses a voice modulator. I can't believe it took this long.
• He has a preexisting history and they can introduce longtime allies and recurring enemies without needing to do origin stories for them.
• Ben's physique was ridiculous
• He's actually shown in the workshop / science lab doing engineering and science shit, which felt quite absent in the Nolan films thanks to Lucius taking on that role almost exclusively.
• His introduction being filmed like a horror movie was a great choice
• The warehouse fight was incredible, showing off not just his hand-to-hand skills but also his planning and gadgetry.

Also, while it's not really "Batman", I thought Alfred was really really good. I liked Michael Caine too, but they're both approaching it differently and I think Irons might even be better, or at least has the potential to be if they give him some good movies to feature in.

Things I didn't like:

• Branding people was poorly explained
• Being a bit too loose with the kills in the car chase. I'm not even opposed to the kill at the end of the film, nor am I a purist with Batman's no-kill rule, but the car chase was a bit gratuitous
• Batman's leap from wanting to protect against Superman to wanting to actively kill him could have been handled much better
• The Martha reveal was also handled extremely poorly. The idea of the common name being what briefly snaps him out of his mission and causes him to hear superman out isn't even a terrible idea implicitly, but they needed to script the scene much better than they did. If instead of "His mother's name is Martha" Lois comes up and says "His mother's name is Martha, Lex kidnapped her and is threatening to kill her unless superman kills you" then Batman actually has something to work with and can realize he was being duped.

yup, all of this.

 

[Htown]

BvS is a bad movie.

It's not completely terrible, but it sure as hell isn't good either.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

- pacing is terrible
- Superman is mopey
- ending is Meh (but I can count the number of superhero movies with satifying 3rd acts on one hand)

Other that that, I enjoyed it. The extended edition didn't help the pacing any of make Superman more likable.

 

[Imbarkus]

• The Martha reveal was also handled extremely poorly. The idea of the common name being what briefly snaps him out of his mission and causes him to hear superman out isn't even a terrible idea implicitly, but they needed to script the scene much better than they did. If instead of "His mother's name is Martha" Lois comes up and says "His mother's name is Martha, Lex kidnapped her and is threatening to kill her unless superman kills you" then Batman actually has something to work with and can realize he was being duped.

Oh, "Martha."



This was a moment in the film that totally worked for me at the same time as I heard it drawing snickers from the crowd around me.

I agree that "Martha" could have worked if it hadn't borne the whole weight of Bruce changing his mind, but rather served as the interrupt to snap him out of his obvious PTSD, and allow him to listen to Superman long enough to know he had been manipulated. However, Superman had 42 lines of dialogue in the whole movie, and apparently needed Lois to run up and finish his sentence for him right in that moment.



But for me, since I was very caught up in the story of Bruce's PTSD, it was all I needed in that moment. In hindsight, though, the whole fight arc is characterized by Superman failing to try to communicate, and his lack of agency over his own actions in the film in general.



Still, it was weird feeling simultaneous emotional highs from the crest and resolution of the movie's conflict, along with simultaneous irritation that some snickering dude a coupla seats over wouldn't shut up over how he didn't like it.

It happened earlier in the movie, too, when a single falling pearl revealed the opening sequence to be a dream sequence...



...which must have been something snickering dude missed, since he laughed out loud as the bats lifted young Bruce Wayne out of the cave.

In a way, this story typifies my whole experience with this movie: having GAF, the internet, my book club friends, etc. always ragging on this movie that was very flawed, overstuffed, and certainly very grimdark... yet still attempted more (and spoke more to my interests in this subject matter more) than it's "twin film" Civil War, which I also enjoyed.

 

[Knoxcore]

I never saw the original cut, only the extended. Went in with low expectations and it was quite possibly one of the worst movies I saw that year. But to each their own I suppose.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

In a way, this story typifies my whole experience with this movie: having GAF, the internet, my book club friends, etc. always ragging on this movie that was very flawed, overstuffed, and certainly very grimdark... yet still attempted more (and spoke more to my interests in this subject matter more) than it's "twin film" Civil War, which I also enjoyed.

I was less bothered by the scene than people in the cinema and the internet at large, but even though I sort of understand what they were going for, it was communicated very poorly to the audience. This goes for the dream sequence you mention there too - so many people were going "What the FUK" in the cinema and when it was revealed to be a dream in the narration that didn't retroactively fix it for them. The narration needed to kick in before the kid started floating upwards so that people wouldn't be giggling and turning to their friends and miss the narration all together. In the MARTHA scene they needed to put in more connective tissue so we can see what Batman's thought processes are. Because without that, it does indeed appear to be "Batman realized their mother's share the same name and wants to save her now because it reminds him of his mother". That's the literal reading of what is happening on screen. That's presumably a drastic oversimplification of what the screenwriter and director intended for the scene, so they needed to make what they were thinking more explicit.

 

[neojubei]

I give WW a solid 8 in terms of a superhero movie. It's a 10 in terms of DCEU films.

i agree

 

[enigmatic_alex44]

I was less bothered by the scene than people in the cinema and the internet at large, but even though I sort of understand what they were going for, it was communicated very poorly to the audience. This goes for the dream sequence you mention there too - so many people were going "What the FUK" in the cinema and when it was revealed to be a dream in the narration that didn't retroactively fix it for them. The narration needed to kick in before the kid started floating upwards so that people wouldn't be giggling and turning to their friends and miss the narration all together. In the MARTHA scene they needed to put in more connective tissue so we can see what Batman's thought processes are. Because without that, it does indeed appear to be "Batman realized their mother's share the same name and wants to save her now because it reminds him of his mother". That's the literal reading of what is happening on screen. That's presumably a drastic oversimplification of what the screenwriter and director intended for the scene, so they needed to make what they were thinking more explicit.

At least the MARTHA scene makes sense. The Knightmare scene unfortunately doesn't without looking up outside sources.

Batman wakes up from the "Knightmare", receives the visit from Flash (they never explain who Flash is within the film) then when Flash disappears and Batman seems to "wake up" a 2nd time. It's a really confusing scene for non comic book readers such as myself, having to go home and Google scenes in a movies means the director failed at those scenes as the film should be able to stand on its own.

That goes way beyond simple "fan service" as some people have called that part of the movie. It's a chunk of the film that is largely responsible for dragging down the movie's rottentomatoes score. 😥

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

At least the MARTHA scene makes sense. The Knightmare scene unfortunately doesn't without looking up outside sources.

Batman wakes up from the "Knightmare", receives the visit from Flash (they never explain who Flash is within the film) then when Flash disappears and Batman seems to "wake up" a 2nd time. It's a really confusing scene for non comic book readers such as myself, having to go home and Google scenes in a movies means the director failed at those scenes as the film should be able to stand on its own.

That goes way beyond simple "fan service" as some people have called that part of the movie. It's a chunk of the film that is largely responsible for dragging down the movie's rottentomatoes score. 😥

I don't know if I'd say it was largely responsible. Like it was part of it but we have no way to a/b test this and I imagine several other things also majorly contributed.

 

[MisterHero]

holy shit

😂😂😂

pretty wild that in 2017, Superman is a piece of cardboard and Captain America is a global example of modern heroism

I laughed.

The gif while making him seem miserable also misses Clark smiling because he saved someone. He just doesn't want to be the savior figure.

Cap doesn't have a messianic complex

Spoiler

yet?

 

[Chris R]

It's funny that I think this extended edition really works, where Suicide Squad needed to be trimmed by at least 10 minutes, probably more.

 

[Imbarkus]

I was less bothered by the scene than people in the cinema and the internet at large, but even though I sort of understand what they were going for, it was communicated very poorly to the audience. This goes for the dream sequence you mention there too - so many people were going "What the FUK" in the cinema and when it was revealed to be a dream in the narration that didn't retroactively fix it for them. The narration needed to kick in before the kid started floating upwards so that people wouldn't be giggling and turning to their friends and miss the narration all together. In the MARTHA scene they needed to put in more connective tissue so we can see what Batman's thought processes are. Because without that, it does indeed appear to be "Batman realized their mother's share the same name and wants to save her now because it reminds him of his mother". That's the literal reading of what is happening on screen. That's presumably a drastic oversimplification of what the screenwriter and director intended for the scene, so they needed to make what they were thinking more explicit.

Totally agree. It's the whole premise of that article I'm hopefully-not-sharing-too-much: that the movie suffers from artificial acceleration and gratuitous gaps because it was overstuffed... primarily because of the inclusion of the "Metahuman Thesis" angle, and the crammed-in Doomsday fight at the end.

Both these things also were part-and-parcel of why the character of Lex Luthor as portrayed made almost no sense at all. If he had kept his focus on Kryptonians, the very-real, just-attacked threat that actually justifies importing Kryptonite, he would have had it. Instead the movie has him raving about red capes and making no sense.



But worse, all the universe-building obliterated the connective tissue of the movie that would had led the story to succeed for all audiences. It was rushed past to include more, and more, and more DC story subplots and influences. While I was writing the piece I discovered the rumor I had missed during runup that WB had actually considered splitting the movie into two.



The internet freaked out about the rumor, but it actually would have been so much better.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Oh, "Martha."



This was a moment in the film that totally worked for me at the same time as I heard it drawing snickers from the crowd around me.

I agree that "Martha" could have worked if it hadn't borne the whole weight of Bruce changing his mind, but rather served as the interrupt to snap him out of his obvious PTSD, and allow him to listen to Superman long enough to know he had been manipulated. However, Superman had 42 lines of dialogue in the whole movie, and apparently needed Lois to run up and finish his sentence for him right in that moment.



But for me, since I was very caught up in the story of Bruce's PTSD, it was all I needed in that moment. In hindsight, though, the whole fight arc is characterized by Superman failing to try to communicate, and his lack of agency over his own actions in the film in general.



Still, it was weird feeling simultaneous emotional highs from the crest and resolution of the movie's conflict, along with simultaneous irritation that some snickering dude a coupla seats over wouldn't shut up over how he didn't like it.

It happened earlier in the movie, too, when a single falling pearl revealed the opening sequence to be a dream sequence...



...which must have been something snickering dude missed, since he laughed out loud as the bats lifted young Bruce Wayne out of the cave.

In a way, this story typifies my whole experience with this movie: having GAF, the internet, my book club friends, etc. always ragging on this movie that was very flawed, overstuffed, and certainly very grimdark... yet still attempted more (and spoke more to my interests in this subject matter more) than it's "twin film" Civil War, which I also enjoyed.

There's no denying that there are interesting questions that BvS chooses to tackle. But in most ways, the film completely fails in its execution due to its pacing, its tone, and the underdeveloped relationship between its leads.

 

[Bleepey]

Totally agree. It's the whole premise of that article I'm hopefully-not-sharing-too-much: that the movie suffers from artificial acceleration and gratuitous gaps because it was overstuffed... primarily because of the inclusion of the "Metahuman Thesis" angle, and the crammed-in Doomsday fight at the end.

Both these things also were part-and-parcel of why the character of Lex Luthor as portrayed made almost no sense at all. If he had kept his focus on Kryptonians, the very-real, just-attacked threat that actually justifies importing Kryptonite, he would have had it. Instead the movie has him raving about red capes and making no sense.



But worse, all the universe-building obliterated the connective tissue of the movie that would had led the story to succeed for all audiences. It was rushed past to include more, and more, and more DC story subplots and influences. While I was writing the piece I discovered the rumor I had missed during runup that WB had actually considered splitting the movie into two.



The internet freaked out about the rumor, but it actually would have been so much better.

I don't know why they didn't do it. More money at the very least.

 

[BobLoblaw]

I actually rewatched this recently as well. I skipped everything with Lois, Lex, and Martha. Made the movie much, much better.

 

[Imbarkus]

I don't know why they didn't do it. More money at the very least.

My theory is they were hoping for Avengers money in a team-up, and so there was no pushing Suicide Squad. But I definitely felt like Suicide Squad needed pushing.

Plus my made-up-idea was for both movies to bracket the summer of 2016, but I doubt they would have tried to support three superhero movies in 2016 after a three year gap. I'm sure, now, they wouldn't want to revise history with another movie if it risked any sort of change in the response to Wonder Woman this year. I think it would have been unreasonably bold, but I also think it would have paid off.

The original rumor image shows an October 2015 date for Part 1, which was probably just too fast to turn it around after it's initial push-back. So my guess is they just felt they had no choice after the initial delay from 2015, even though Snyder had probably two movies worth of film in the can, and briefly considered the idea until they looked at both the schedule, and the internet response to the leaked idea.

 

[thepotatoman]

At least the MARTHA scene makes sense. The Knightmare scene unfortunately doesn't without looking up outside sources.

Batman wakes up from the "Knightmare", receives the visit from Flash (they never explain who Flash is within the film) then when Flash disappears and Batman seems to "wake up" a 2nd time. It's a really confusing scene for non comic book readers such as myself, having to go home and Google scenes in a movies means the director failed at those scenes as the film should be able to stand on its own.

That goes way beyond simple "fan service" as some people have called that part of the movie. It's a chunk of the film that is largely responsible for dragging down the movie's rottentomatoes score. 😥

As DC comic reader the Flash scene was very easy to get. The flash gets thrown around between time, space, and dimensions a lot with sometimes very little control, and teasers like that in incompletely unrelated stuff is common, but I definitely get why a non-comic reader would be confused.

I have no clue who understands the knightmare scene.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

As DC comic reader the Flash scene was very easy to get. The flash gets thrown around between time, space, and dimensions a lot with sometimes very little control, but I definitely get why a non-comic reader would be confused.

I have no clue who understands the knightmare scene.

The problem with the Flash scene is that it is presented as being a dream, because presumably if it wasn't a dream then Bruce would need to actually do something about it in the story right then and there instead of ignore it.

Knightmare scene is clearly a vision of the future related to the Flash scene, it's got Darkseid's symbols and para-demons and shit which are obviously not Bruce's random fantasies, but was so inelegantly inserted that it's ridiculous. And again, it's a "dream". Boo.

 

[Sir Alemeth]

Theatrical 3/10
Extended 8.5/10

 

[gotoadgo]

Theatrical 3/10
Extended 8.5/10

Good lord, no.

 

[Imbarkus]

The problem with the Flash scene is that it is presented as being a dream, because presumably if it wasn't a dream then Bruce would need to actually do something about it in the story right then and there instead of ignore it.

Knightmare scene is clearly a vision of the future related to the Flash scene, it's got Darkseid's symbols and para-demons and shit which are obviously not Bruce's random fantasies, but was so inelegantly inserted that it's ridiculous. And again, it's a "dream". Boo.

Lack of clarity here is also one of my few issues with Man of Steel.

 

[Dead]

Lack of clarity here is also one of my few issues with Man of Steel.

Superman crumbling under the weight of all the dead who he can't save?

 

[MegaManTrigger]

Superman crumbling under the weight of all the dead who he can't save?

Thats about as subtle as a sledgehammer lol.

 

[Dead]

I just realized he was probably being sarcastic lol

 

[VenomousCoffee]

I always read the "Martha" scene as Bruce realizing that Supes had a mother whom he loves (just like Bruce), hence he was also a kid at some point, hence he is also human in some metaphorical way and shouldn't get murdered in some abandoned building.

I never thought it was a great scene, but I never hated it. Shrug.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Theatrical 3/10
Extended 8.5/10

Yeah, more like:

Theatrical 6.5/10
Extended 10/10

 

[PanSexual_Peacock]

Yeah, more like:

Theatrical 6.5/10
Extended 10/10

That's more like it

 

[Metalingus5150]

It's okay to admit you like a bad movie.

 

[ZeoVGM]

I still can't imagine how a single person thought "the red capes are coming" was anything but terrible.

Then again, it's the same movie with one of the worst written and acted lines in any movie I've seen in years.

I shouldn't say "worst acted." Anthony Hopkins couldn't make that line work.

 

[Count Dookkake]

It's okay to admit you like a bad movie.

As evidenced by all those Marvel threads.

 

[M.W.]

MoS was still a bigger pile of shit.

This movie is shit but not that shitty.

Still need to see WW

 

[Imbarkus]

Superman crumbling under the weight of all the dead who he can't save?

Conversations that start when Superman passes out and has a dream... and pick up where they left off unbroken when he wakes up. Psychic-dream-premonition-whatevers that just befuddle and scrape off a portion of the audience every time.

 

[Veelk]

Lack of clarity here is also one of my few issues with Man of Steel.

Is that sped up? He looks mildly confused instead of freaked out.