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[Zabka]

Bella is a Mary Sue?

She doesn't seem to have the power to be. She has a ridicilous overperceived importance in the Twilight world, but I don't really see that as an exact clarifier that they are a Mary Sue. Bland character? Yeah.

About Rey,

I see using the Force like being able to access a Gamefaqs faq about what to do in a game when everyone else doesn't have one. When Rey finally closes her eyes and let's the force in, it basically guides her on what to do. Same thing with the Skywalkers and their impressive feats with technology. Anakin had the pod racer, Luke had the X-Wing, and Rey has the Millenium Falcon. The force guides them on how to do these things, even if they themselves aren't aware of it.

By the original definition of an author insert character Bella is absolutely one.

She physically resembles an idealized version of the author, has a mysterious unexplained power, and hot dudes are willing to fight to the death for her.

 

[Vice]

When does she struggle with it? I can't recall her being introduced to the concept of the force until Kylo tries to mind read her. After that she seems to have an understanding of the mind controlling aspects of Jedi, and then after less than a minute has mastered it.

There's nothing reluctant about it after that.

She was introduced to the force early on by Han and Maz. First when Han tells her all the stuff about Jedi and the Force was true. Then when Maz gave her the rundown on what it was. She got about as much Force info as Luke did during ANH.

I get that for the plot, but not for character development within the movie.

The charcter development happens outside of the movie as well. It's a very money-grubby way to tell a story, but it works for Marvel and it's even happened with Str Wars in the past with the Clone Wars introducing somewhat important elements.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I agree to some extent. As mentioned in the other thread, Luke does have a ton of luck go his way, but Rey's learning curve is vastly superior to his.

Does that mean she is a poorly done character? No. I just think there is reasoning within the universe which will highlight why her abilities were accelerated throughout the narrative of the film.

I, as an audience member, should not have to take it on faith that it'll be all explained. That is lazy storytelling.

She was introduced to the force early on by Han and Maz. First when Han tells her all the stuff about Jedi and the Force was true. Then when Maz gave her the rundown on what it was. She got about as much Force info as Luke did during ANH.

Are you forgetting the master Jedi. Remember that fella? Hell, even his force ghost whispered sweet nothings into Luke's ear toward the end near the death star.

 

[Angry Grimace]

By the original definition of an author insert character Bella is absolutely one.

She physically resembles an idealized version of the author, has a mysterious unexplained power, and hot dudes are willing to fight to the death for her.

Yeah, Mary Sue has nothing to really do with power levels, it just has to do with warping the entire narrative around that specific character (whether justified or not).

 

[aliengmr]

When does she struggle with it? I can't recall her being introduced to the concept of the force until Kylo tries to mind read her. After that she seems to have an understanding of the mind controlling aspects of Jedi, and then after less than a minute has mastered it.

There's nothing reluctant about it after that.

Han Solo? Its all true? Where as Luke had never heard of the Force, its implied that Rey had heard of it.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Han Solo? Its all true? Where as Luke had never heard of the Force, its implied that Rey had heard of it.

I'm not talking about some casual mention. I'm talking specific examples of how to use some pretty advanced force abilities.

 

[SporeCrawler]

As much as i agree that Rey is a boring character (daisy ridley is awesome though) I would say that we need episode 8 and 9 to understand her place in the starwars universe.

 

[KingSnake]

When does she struggle with it? I can't recall her being introduced to the concept of the force until Kylo tries to mind read her. After that she seems to have an understanding of the mind controlling aspects of Jedi, and then after less than a minute has mastered it.

There's nothing reluctant about it after that.

She knows about Jedi and the Force but she thought they were legends. The whole part with Maz and the lightsaber that happens prior to the Kylo interogation it's also practically a personal presentation to the Force for her.

 

[DrForester]

People calling Rey a Mary Sue have absolutely no clue what a Mary Sue is.

Even taking away the fact that Ren was injured mentally, and physically in that last fight (not to mention already a bit winded from fighting with Finn), I would not call Rey beating him any more extraordinary than Luke hopping in a X-Wing for the first time and surviving the Death Star run.

 

[Beast Legacy]

The thing that irks me the most about people crying Mary Sue is the fact that even if OP's point were not right on the mark (they are, great post OP) and Rey could fit the actual definition of an author insert-Mary Sue (which, as far as I know, the film's writers J.J. Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan and Michael Arndt weren't biologically born female or present themselves as female):

So what? Who cares if she was a Mary Sue?

Pretty much all of Arnold Schwarzenegger's leading film roles are Mary/Gary Stu incarnate yet he and his films are never called out for it. And as pointed out numerous times in the thread, loads of other male leads are never put on trial for their supposed Stu-ness.

That's the actual issue, that there seems to be a need to "justify" an all-powerful female lead character when the opposite is virtually never seen for male leads. That's why it bothers me that Max Landis still believes there isn't a sexist tinge to using the term. Why do the female leads need to conform to his narrow-minded world of female characters in film? We have flawed male leads and invincible male leads that are equally enjoyed by all. Why do women need to apologize for kicking ass too?

 

[Not]

Well since we're now going to discuss this in detail, Rey is somewhat too perfect at most of the things. Shit like her killing the power to the Falcon to line up the kill shot for Finn was a huge wat moment. Poe's somewhat guilty of this too but he's such a noncharacter in the film nobody cares.

Both Anakin and Luke get the shit beat out of them a lot in both trilogies. Luke is fairly useless in ANH besides the Death Star attack and Anakin is put to the side while Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon go to work in Ep.1.

I think they gave her too many skillsets too.

Did you read the OP? Because there are a ton of great examples of Rey screwing up in there. In fact, the story couldn't even progress without her screwing up a few times.

 

[Sanjuro]

I, as an audience member, should not have to take it on faith that it'll be all explained. That is lazy storytelling.

I don't think it's exceptionally lazy. If there weren't an abundance of character with ongoing arcs introduced into the film, then I would agree.

Even in ANH, it's Luke's story. This film wasn't Rey's story alone in the same vein.

 

[LegendofLex]

When does she struggle with it?

Kylo tears into her mind pretty thoroughly before she's capable of mustering up a resistance. It's not even really clear that she knows what she's doing when she seizes on Kylo's own insecurities. That whole scene is basically lifted right out of the occulmency lesson scenes in Harry Potter 5, and Harry definitely never had any idea what he was doing.

She fumbles twice at attempting to use a mind trick.

She was about to get her ass handed to her by Kylo, such that he even told her outright "you need a teacher," when she suddenly remembered (based on Kylo name-dropping the Force) that the Force could guide her (which doesn't actually require training; in fact, orthodox training would probably have interfered).

I can't recall her being introduced to the concept of the force until Kylo tries to mind read her.

She had literally just got off a planet where an ancient alien lady told her how she ought to approach the Force after being directly exposed to Force-induced visions that she probably had been trying to throw off as soon as they'd begun.

Han had mentioned the Force while they were on the Falcon.

On top of that she seems to have heard stories about Luke Skywalker.

 

[Frog-fu]

Rey is good and everything she does. She has no character flaws or shortcomings. She's a Mary Sue. I don't know why people can't accept that.

Just compare her to other Star Wars characters. Or just look at the protagonist.

Luke was naive, impulsive and took years to become a Jedi. He was constantly rescued in ANH. He struggles with his fears in Empire and gets wrecked by Vader. His one talent from the jump is flying.

Anakin was unprecedentedly strong in the Force but his character was rife with character flaws. He was arrogant, ruled by fear, hungered for glory, reckless and acted on his impulses. His talent for flying and fixing things were far outweighed by the bad.

And then there is Rey. She is kind, selfless and resourceful girl that is a great pilot, amazing mechanic, unprecedented naturally skilful at the Force and apparently a good enough swordsman that de can go toe to toe with Ren.

Rey is a Mary Sue. There is no way around. Sometimes those type of characters work great, but it's not the character type I want in Star Wars, and that has nothing to do with her gender.

 

[Branduil]

It's sorta funny that a phrase that (so far as I can tell) was borne from Star Trek fanfic has come to be a decent signifier of how silly Star Wars fans can be.

And I think it wasn't even so much about the character actually being awesome/hyper-competent as it was that character's ability to inexplicably attract the real hyper-competent characters. So you'd have some featureless stand-in magically transported to the Star Trek universe, and Kirk, Spock, and Bones all fall madly in love with her.

The feckless protagonists of harem anime are closer to the original meaning of Mary Sue than Rey is.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I, as an audience member, should not have to take it on faith that it'll be all explained. That is lazy storytelling.

Not really. The "leap of faith" you're referring to is one you probably make all the time in a ton of different fictional works that I bet you don't consider to be "lazy" in their storytelling.

As to why you hesitated to make that jump this time, I don't know. It's certainly not out of bounds when it comes to Star Wars, though.

 

[Vice]

Are you forgetting the master Jedi. Remember that fella? Hell, even his force ghost whispered sweet nothings into Luke's ear toward the end near the death star.

Yeah, Obi Wan gave him a basic explanation of what the force is and a reminder later on when he needed to make an impossible win. Rey got a basic explanation and a reminder about the force as well.

Luke did the blind blockong training to show his skills with the Force earlier on before the climax.

Rey did the jedi mind trick and some mind reading to show her skills earlier on.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

She knows about Jedi and the Force but she thought they were legends. The whole part with Maz and the lightsaber that happens prior to the Kylo interogation it's also practically a personal presentation to the Force for her.

I saw the movie. I know what her "introduction" entailed.

As I've mentioned before: There is no journey (the key word here) of discovery. As unlikely as it is at least Luke was a naive farm boy at the start and the hero responsible for destroying the death star at the end (which I took to be the instance where he accepted the force after a entire movie struggling with it).

The only struggle Rey seemed to have is to leave Jakku (which she overcame pretty damn quickly). After that her character development grinded to a halt.

 

[KingSnake]

Rey is good and everything she does.

Rey is also very good at reading the threads before commenting on them.

I saw the movie. I know what her "introduction" entailed.

As I've mentioned before: There is no journey (the key word here) of discovery. As unlikely as it is at least Luke was a naive farm boy at the start and the hero responsible for destroying the death star at the end (which I took to be the instance where he accepted the force after a entire movie struggling with it).

There is a journey. Just because you didn't pay attention to the movie (or the posts in this thread) doesn't mean there isn't a journey. Even her first mind tricks don't succeed at first, not against Kylo and not against the Stormtrooper. And after she succeeds, she's not exactly aware of the success, she doesn't even remind to try again until she's reminded of the Force by Kylo.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

That's the actual issue, that there seems to be a need to "justify" an all-powerful female lead character when the opposite is virtually never seen for male leads. That's why it bothers me that Max Landis still believes there isn't a sexist tinge to using the term. Why do the female leads need to conform to his narrow-minded world of female characters in film? We have flawed male leads and invincible male leads that are equally enjoyed by all. Why do women need to apologize for kicking ass too?

This.

Rey is good and everything she does. She has no character flaws or shortcomings.

No, she messes up quite a few times and she's quite naive and impulsive too.

Rey is a Mary Sue. There is no way around.

How about a giant OP that dismantles the whole notion as a "way around"? Care to address any of it?

 

[ghst]

she is fairly typical of the disney fighting female mould, which is unsurprising given that this is a disney film to the bone.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Mary Sue, black hole, wish fufillment...... call it whatever you want, it is bad. When she did the JMT my eyes just about rolled out of my head. If you want to draw a comparison between characters in Force Awakened and New Hope, you should probably do it with Kenobi and not Luke, honestly. He is the one who performed a jedi mind trick, let the force flow through him and got in a saber battle in that movie.

 

[DrForester]

I, as an audience member, should not have to take it on faith that it'll be all explained. That is lazy storytelling.

That's not really fair. Everything we know about Luke and the other OT characters comes from us knowing the full trilogy.

Sure they could blow it, but it's been sold as a trilogy, and not getting everything laid out in the first film was to be expected.

 

[Not]

That's the actual issue, that there seems to be a need to "justify" an all-powerful female lead character when the opposite is virtually never seen for male leads. That's why it bothers me that Max Landis still believes there isn't a sexist tinge to using the term. Why do the female leads need to conform to his narrow-minded world of female characters in film? We have flawed male leads and invincible male leads that are equally enjoyed by all. Why do women need to apologize for kicking ass too?

Good question. Something to keep in mind as we go through the inevitable growing pains of more and more women leading big-budget hollywood sci-fi action tentpoles.

 

[Foggy]

First, I've heard of the term but regardless I do think she came off a bit overpowered, especially for it being the first film. Being a Millenium Falcon badass, doing the Jedi mind thing on James Bond, holding of Kylo's mind attack thing, kicking his ass six days to Tuesday later. For this being an epic journey, she's got a hell of a fast start already. And there may be a perfectly logical reason for her being as powerful as she is, but the point is that it's not as interesting, especially compared to Luke. Now I'll be the last person to bristle at the whole "A is awesome, B is not A, therefore B is bad" line of thinking, so I'll just patiently wait to see how the rest of the movies shake out. But isolated to just this movie, the character feels like it has too much going in her favor. I think what people are getting hung up on is the fact that Daisy kills in the performance and because of that people are resistant to the idea that the character, in and of itself, is lacking. She's still my favorite character in the movie, but it does feel like she could have faced stiffer adversity. As it stands, there's very little tension revolving around her and danger.

 

[Trey]

She's about as much a Mary Sue as any character there's ever been in a hero's journey tale. Attractive, likable, capable in the company of supposed superiors. And besides, Rey never did anything that stretched my limits of believability too much.

 

[Zabka]

This reminds me of the "Superman knocked down half of Metropolis" argument. Just a dumb idea based on small parts of the movie that spreads like wildfire.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Rey is good and everything she does. She has no character flaws or shortcomings. She's a Mary Sue.

That's not really what a Mary Sue is. Veelk's post is really comprehensive about not only how she doesn't fit, but how the term's gotten mangled over time by people who don't really understand it but continued to use it as a means to essentially express anger/contempt at the attempted execution of a traditionally male hero role with a female character occupying that place.

This reminds me of the "Superman knocked down half of Metropolis" argument. Just a dumb idea based on small parts of the movie that spreads like wildfire.

Oh god, if we actually manage to intertwine these two discussions, I think OT might literally asphyxiate.

 

[Toxi]

she is fairly typical of the disney fighting female mould, which is unsurprising given that this is a disney film to the bone.

...What is the Disney fighting female mold? And which Disney movies would you say use it?

 

[plasmawave]

Kylo tears into her mind pretty thoroughly before she's capable of mustering up a resistance. It's not even really clear that she knows what she's doing when she seizes on Kylo's own insecurities. That whole scene is basically lifted right out of the occulmency lesson scenes in Harry Potter 5, and Harry definitely never had any idea what he was doing.

She fumbles twice at attempting to use a mind trick.

She was about to get her ass handed to her by Kylo, such that he even told her outright "you need a teacher," when she suddenly remembered (based on Kylo name-dropping the Force) that the Force could guide her (which doesn't actually require training; in fact, orthodox training would probably have interfered).



She had literally just got off a planet where an ancient alien lady told her how she ought to approach the Force after being directly exposed to Force-induced visions that she probably had been trying to throw off as soon as they'd begun.

Han had mentioned the Force while they were on the Falcon.

On top of that she seems to have heard stories about Luke Skywalker.

Yeah... she fumbles to use the mind trick for like... 10 seconds. It was a funny scene but come on, it felt incredibly rushed.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

First, I've heard of the term but regardless I do think she came off a bit overpowered, especially for it being the first film. Being a Millenium Falcon badass, doing the Jedi mind thing on James Bond

??

 

[Sanjuro]

That's not really fair. Everything we know about Luke and the other OT characters comes from us knowing the full trilogy.

Sure they could blow it, but it's been sold as a trilogy, and not getting everything laid out in the first film was to be expected.

As I mentioned in my last post, Luke is more contained. Episode IV feels very much like a standalone product in many ways.

If someone told me Episode VII was the last stop on the Disney bus, then I would agree her character's arc is garbo.

 

[Jarmel]

Rey did as well. Remember she got knocked out and Finn had to save her ass from Kylo. And Rey wasn't fighting a Sith Lord in this movie, she was fighting a trainee who had just killed his own father and had been shot up.

Afterwhich she promptly saves him and Ren puts him into a coma. That's probably the only case in the film where someone needed to directly help her and Finn ended up stalling for time.

It's explained a lot in this thread how Rey isn't perfect either.

I think the extent in to how flawed the character is, is important too. Making minor bad decisions I feel is negligible. The freighter thing is relatively minor and it somewhat worked out in their favor as it looked like Han was about be dusted anyway. Rey has trouble initially piloting the Falcon could be considered a flaw but then she's flying it better than Han in less than five minutes. It's looking at the whole picture.

 

[bearythebear]

Rey has been scavenging old ships her entire life. So it makes sense that she kinda knows what she's doing with the old-ass Millenium Falcon.

Kylo kinda just failed the whole movie though. Hopefully they show him just kicking ass in the next one. It's kinda cool that they're also giving him a story arc of getting stronger (mentally and physically).

 

[Not]

And then there is Rey. She is kind, selfless and resourceful girl that is a great pilot, amazing mechanic, unprecedented naturally skilful at the Force and apparently a good enough swordsman that de can go toe to toe with Ren.

Rey is a Mary Sue. There is no way around. Sometimes those type of characters work great, but it's not the character type I want in Star Wars, and that has nothing to do with her gender.

Frog, did you not read the OP either??

It's looking at the whole picture.

And yet another new parameter for a "Mary Sue," out of nowhere.

 

[Leeness]

The thing that irks me the most about people crying Mary Sue is the fact that even if OP's point were not right on the mark (they are, great post OP) and Rey could fit the actual definition of an author insert-Mary Sue (which, as far as I know, the film's writers J.J. Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan and Michael Arndt weren't biologically born female or present themselves as female):

So what? Who cares if she was a Mary Sue?

Pretty much all of Arnold Schwarzenegger's leading film roles are Mary/Gary Stu incarnate yet he and his films are never called out for it. And as pointed out numerous times in the thread, loads of other male leads are never put on trial for their supposed Stu-ness.

That's the actual issue, that there seems to be a need to "justify" an all-powerful female lead character when the opposite is virtually never seen for male leads. That's why it bothers me that Max Landis still believes there isn't a sexist tinge to using the term. Why do the female leads need to conform to his narrow-minded world of female characters in film? We have flawed male leads and invincible male leads that are equally enjoyed by all. Why do women need to apologize for kicking ass too?

This this this.

Women as leads need explanation and justification for being capable. Men generally don't.

She makes plenty of mistakes, you can see her struggling (even in the end fight, even though people claiming she's perfect apparently watched her "destroy" Kylo, when she's mostly running away, tripping on her feet, etc.), she has emotional issues, etc.

It's so annoying.

 

[sgjackson]

I just wish they explored her immediate backstory a bit more instead of using her as a vessel for solutions and a character focus in numerous setpieces without exploring her nuances or faulting her to require cooperation and assistance. It's not black and white, as she obviously has her moments, but it's an overarching issue (and probably the only big one) I have with the film; it's insistence to push forward aggressively and spend little time exploring our characters intimately or growing them through quiet exchanges.

This is roughly a point I've been making privately among friends for a while now - TFA is a movie that is devoted to pacing and feel over plot, and this is a very divisive decision that leads to characters that feel awesome but seem underdeveloped when you consider them critically. Rey, being the protagonist, arguably suffers from that the most.

I didn't think anything she accomplished in the movie is all that different from other Star Wars protagonists (I'm sure others disagree), but the fact that this is a discussion in the first place is a symptom of the above problem. Other plot issues in the movie also stem from this - Snoke, Starkiller Base, and the new Republic government needed some exposition that they didn't get, and the first two feel like standins for Palpatine and the Death Star as a result. Some additional quieter scenes and exposition to address the above problems would have done wonders for the movie's plot and probably wouldn't have adversely affected its pacing much.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

That's not really fair. Everything we know about Luke and the other OT characters comes from us knowing the full trilogy.

Sure they could blow it, but it's been sold as a trilogy, and not getting everything laid out in the first film was to be expected.

As I keep on explaining: There should be a character arc (with it's own 3 act structure) within the first movie for her, but she only has one act and one problem to overcome.

EDIT: I corrected arc to act.

 

[Branduil]

I think one thing that's throwing people off is that the plot of TFA is structured like ANH but the character arcs are structured much more like ESB.

 

[Toxi]

??

That was Daniel Craig in the Stormtrooper outfit.

 

[Proelite]

Her character is not why the movie sucked imo. Her acting was partly the reason why the movie sucked.

 

[Boke1879]

??

it's rumored Daniel Craig was the voice of the Stormtrooper she used the mind trick on.

 

[Tookay]

I think part of the problem with this whole discussion is that we clearly don't know Rey's backstory.

For example, it could very well be that she's a former student of Luke's academy or that she's already received training but the memories of it have been locked away.

You have an explanation like that in the next film and, suddenly, parts of Rey's displays of Force prowess are explained.

But that also illustrates the greater narrative problem with teasing Rey's backstory like this in the first place: we're basically being told to refrain from judging her character for another 18 months, when TFA itself could have equipped us with more information to make an assessment.

It's a weird writing decision to lock a protagonist's character traits and background in the Mystery Box, because it keeps your audience from fully connecting with them.

 

[LegendofLex]

The only struggle Rey seemed to have is to leave Jakku (which she overcame pretty damn quickly). After that her character development grinded to a halt.

At first, she was wary of any and all strangers, but spending time with BB-8 and getting out of the scrape with Finn started breaking down her defenses.

She wasn't just reluctant to leave Jakku; she was inclined to return to Jakku once they got Finn to the Resistance, which lasted until Maz told her that she should seek out Luke instead.

She ran away at first when she encountered the lightsaber, saying "I don't want anything to do with this."

She seemed to be driven by passion and emotion and her desire to avenge Han and protect Finn during the first half of the saber duel, and was on the verge of being defeated before she realized that the way to win was to let go of her ego and let the Force take over.

Yeah... she fumbles to use the mind trick for like... 10 seconds. It was a funny scene but come on, it felt incredibly rushed.

It's no different than the scene with Luke and the remote, and in fact takes her even more tries to get it right.

She'd already pulled off a much more difficult feat in the previous scene; now she realized she would need to tap into her powers to escape. She'd probably heard of the Jedi mind trick before from old stories, so it was a matter of trying it out and tapping into that same energy she'd already found within her on the Falcon and when facing Kylo.

She was much more aware of her potential at this point than Luke was.

 

[Jarmel]

Did you read the OP? Because there are a ton of great examples of Rey screwing up in there. In fact, the story couldn't even progress without her screwing up a few times.

And they're minor. The major flaw she has is the delusion that her parents are coming back to her on Jakku. Too bad the film doesn't really expand on this point but I guess that's for VIII.

 

[Sanjuro]

Her character is not why the movie sucked imo. Her acting was partly the reason why the movie sucked.

She was totally unbelievable as a young white girl.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

That was Daniel Craig in the Stormtrooper outfit.

Ohhhh so that's why I saw him as "Stormtrooper (uncredited)" on IMDB haha.

She was totally unbelievable as a young white girl.

True, living on Jakku for most of her line she should have more of a tan!

 

[plasmawave]

??

The Stromtrooper was played by Daniel Craig.

 

[Not]

??

Daniel Craig plays the stormtrooper in that scene

edit: dammit

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I think part of the problem with this whole discussion is that we clearly don't know Rey's backstory.

For example, it could very well be that she's a former student of Luke's academy or that she's already received training but the memories of it have been locked away.

You have an explanation like that in the next film and, suddenly, parts of Rey's displays of Force prowess are explained.

But that also illustrates the problem with teasing Rey's backstory like this in the first place: that we're basically left to hold off on making a judgment call about her character for another 18 months, when this movie could have equipped us with more information to make an assessment.

It's a weird writing decision to lock a main character's character traits and background in the Mystery Box, because it keeps your audience from fully connecting with them.

If that is how it goes down I have zero problem with it. But I do have a problem with how it has been structured, which you covered in the last line of this post.

I have a big problem with JJ Abrams' approach to storytelling. It's growing to the point where I just don't think I respect him as a filmmaker (or at least a writer).