Support NeoGAF

[ProudCanuck]

How exactly?
He doesn't do shit in ANH,

He follows Han's lead while saving Leia.

Shoots some ties down.

Doesn't do shit at the Death Star leading to everyone but Wedge getting shot down.
Doesn't even confront Vader, is about to be easily killed by him from behind before Han has to save the day.
Uses Force to aim better, something that likely could have been accomplished eiter way.


Mary Sue Points
. Swings across gap with Leia
. Gets medal while Chewie doesn't

Destroys Death Star in one shot
First time he turns on the light saber he knows where the laser is coming from within 45 seconds
Fends off Vader and tie fighters with no space fighting practice


Rey was flying the ship but Finn is the one who makes the shots which kill the tie fighters.
Finn destroys the turrets in the first instance he is out in space in a tie fighters. Is he a Mary Sue ?
Finn nearly kills Ren with the light saber


Here is a fact

Ren is only force sensitive due to his family but his level is lower than Rey and perhaps even Luke .


Rey is more like anakin than Ren is like Vader

 

[Sojgat]

I always took a Mary Sue to be a character like Wesley Crusher.

Is Rey like Wesley Crusher?

 

[GhaleonEB]

How exactly?
He doesn't do shit in ANH,

He follows Han's lead while saving Leia.

Shoots some ties down.

Doesn't do shit at the Death Star leading to everyone but Wedge getting shot down.
Doesn't even confront Vader, is about to be easily killed by him from behind before Han has to save the day.
Uses Force to aim better, something that likely could have been accomplished eiter way.


Mary Sue Points
. Swings across gap with Leia
. Gets medal while Chewie doesn't

Let's expand this a bit.

-Expert pilot
-Robotics mechanic
-Expert shot with blasters (bullseyeing the blast door controls to cut off Vader when they are trying to escape)
-Perfect throw with cable to swing over the chasm with his sis
-Blocks laser blasts while blind, three times a row, within moments of trying
-Brags of making what others consider an impossible shot all the time from a fighter ship
-Successful gunner in the Falcon the first time
-Proceeds to make said impossible shot via using the force - something he had no training on whatsoever - by eye, in a ship he's never flown before

He's an expert at everything he tries. Hmmm.

The power levels and use of force abilities are greatly inconsistent in the movie. Kylo has had years of training under Luke Skywalker and then later under Snoke. He displayed amazing mastery of the force early in the movie, overpowered Rey, but then could barely finish off Finn and then was dominated by Rey who somehow knew how to mind control people.

As I mentioned Max Landis makes good points about the character development of rey and the others in his video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpS6TlqgLIQ

Don't just dismiss it because Max Landis is arrogant. He's an arrogant dickhead who is a working screenwriter and knows how these things are structured better than 99.99% of the people here.

I don't think you have thought about Luke's abilities or the obvious parallels with Rey very much.

 

[Trokil]

Luke literally blocked three laser blasts while blind within ~1 minute of trying. While. Blind.

I like the exchange in ANH when someone says the shot they have to make is impossible, even with a computer. And Luke's like, I totally do that all the time. I wonder why he can do that?

The same reason Rey is an instinctively great pilot, in ways even she doesn't understand (at first).

Not it is not the same.

Having great instincts is part of the untrained Jedi, Lucas explained that in PM. That is why Luke is a good pilot, why Anakin could fly a pod. But that is nothing. Luke could do nothing with the force. He had a Jedi Master with him and he gave him guidance. Rey can do everything just out of nowhere, even a force pull against a Sith and the Jedi mind trick against a trooper without any guidance.

 

[aliengmr]

Take note of how off the mark the peck on the surface was.

 

[plasmawave]

I agree with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpS6TlqgLIQ

Maybe Mary Sue is not the right word, but lazy and rushed writing with very thick plot armor.

 

[Angry Grimace]

My problem with the term "Mary Sue" is that it doesn't have a consistent meaning, but the one I think people are looking for is "Wish Fulfillment Character."

 

[Jarmel]

Well since we're now going to discuss this in detail, Rey is somewhat too perfect at most of the things. Shit like her killing the power to the Falcon to line up the kill shot for Finn was a huge wat moment. Poe's somewhat guilty of this too but he's such a noncharacter in the film nobody cares.

Both Anakin and Luke get the shit beat out of them a lot in both trilogies. Luke is fairly useless in ANH besides the Death Star attack and Anakin is put to the side while Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon go to work in Ep.1.

I think they gave her too many skillsets too.

 

[Stallion Dan]

LOL people really are just tossing around the term Mary Sue for anything now.

Kirk is, he is the answer to most of the shows/movies, and his flaws all get spun into strengths. Has very few truly flawed moments, after so many TV episodes and movies he should have a whole lot more.

 

[LegendofLex]

The power levels and use of force abilities are greatly inconsistent in the movie. Kylo has had years of training under Luke Skywalker and then later under Snoke. He displayed amazing mastery of the force early in the movie, overpowered Rey, but then could barely finish off Finn and then was dominated by Rey.

I say this in every spoiler thread, but I'll say it again:

In a universe where there exists a supernatural force that not only allows people to achieve supernatural feats but also guides people's actions when they open their minds and allow it to do so, looking at a confrontation whose turning point occurs when the protagonist enters a meditative/trance-like state from the lens of "power levels" or "force abilities" is completely missing the point.

 

[notworksafe]

James T Kirk is the Mary Sue of Star Trek and he is a great character.

Only in the books and even then only when he is written by Shatner.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Take note of how off the mark the peck on the surface was.

I never noticed how much they look like Hershey's Kisses.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Care to list any examples?

Or even elaborate why it's okay in this case?

For the first, Ip Man, seen in the video fighting 10 men without getting a scratch. This is a case of a story where you see a good man just trying to live his life in an unjust world and winning handily when that world tries to mess with him.

An example of both is All-Star Superman, a story where Superman is dying and decides to spend his remaining time doing all he can for the world. You could also apply any number of myths about a single person.

I'm not saying that those examples don't have instances of another character's viewpoint or something, but the focus is definitely on the main character.

 

[andythinkpad]

The part she is good at flying Millennium Falcon annoyed me. I didn't mind the part she super saiyan the force.

But the dumbest thing in the movie is mother fucking chrome stormtrooper crumble like a bag bag.

 

[MMarston]

Great post.

I look at this way, when you have a guy like Max Landis tweeting this:

It makes it that much clearer on what is right and what is wrong.

Being that Landis is kind of a dopey shit that writes male wish-fulfillment himself so the minute there's a woman that takes precedence in a story and happens to be good at stuff he has to call it Mary Sue fan fiction like a spoiled brat.

Fuck me, he's relying on 4chan posts now?

 

[Vice]

Well since we're now going to discuss this in detail, Rey is somewhat too perfect at most of the things. Shit like her killing the power to the Falcon to line up the kill shot for Finn was a huge wat moment. Poe's somewhat guilty of this too but he's such a noncharacter in the film nobody cares.

Both Anakin and Luke get the shit beat out of them a lot in both trilogies. Luke is fairly useless in ANH besides the Death Star attack and Anakin is put to the side while Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon go to work in Ep.1.

I think they gave her too many skillsets too.

Luke accomplished tons in ANH outside of blowing up the Death Star.

Anakin won the pod race, built c-3p0, had a power level over 9,000 and helped win the battle of Naboo at the age of 8(?) and went on to be a successful Jedi after a timeskip.

 

[Ophelion]

My problem with the term "Mary Sue" is that it doesn't have a consistent meaning, but the one I think people are looking for is "Wish Fulfillment Character."

And if so, it's bloody Star Wars. The whole enterprise is wish fulfillment rendered down into movie form and Luke is certainly a wish fulfillment character and so is Harry Potter while we're at it.

 

[Cheebo]

I never noticed how much they look like Hershey's Kisses.

In the countless times I have seen that movie that gif was the first time I think I actually noticed what the torpedo's looked like.

 

[Neoweee]

Great post.

I look at this way, when you have a guy like Max Landis tweeting this:

It makes it that much clearer on what is right and what is wrong.

Being that Landis is kind of a dopey shit that writes male wish-fulfillment himself so the minute there's a woman that takes precedence in a story and happens to be good at stuff he has to call it Mary Sue fan fiction like a spoiled brat.

Come on. He's been on a rant about flawless protagonists for a while now, and before TFA has been listing mostly male characters.

 

[TheKeyPit]

Great post.

I find it sad that we even have to discuss stuff like that.

 

[XenodudeX]

When I finished watching the movie, my initial thought that she was a bit of a Mary Sue character, which was the main reason I really didn't care for Rey. Upon thinking about further, I came to the conclusion that she's just a boring character overall, not really a Mary Sue.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

My problem with the term "Mary Sue" is that it doesn't have a consistent meaning, but the one I think people are looking for is "Wish Fulfillment Character."

This is a movie franchise where one of the most memorable lines is, "YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE"

 

[Squire]

It's a really great post and explains really well why Rey isn't a Mary Sue.

Rey's my favorite character in Star Wars.

Agreed and I really don't think this discussion would've caught fire if Landis' wasn't regurgitated everywhere.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

For the first, Ip Man, seen in the video fighting 10 men without getting a scratch. This is a case of a story where you see a good man just trying to live his life in an unjust world and winning handily when that world tries to mess with him.

Yessssss Ip Man!

 

[Boke1879]

Fuck me, he's relying on 4chan posts now?

He probably wrote that damn post.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Let's expand this a bit.

-Expert pilot
-Robotics mechanic
-Expert shot with blasters (bullseyeing the blast door controls to cut off Vader when they are trying to escape)
-Perfect throw with cable to swing over the chasm with his sis
-Blocks laser blasts while blind, three times a row, within moments of trying
-Brags of making what others consider an impossible shot all the time from a fighter ship
-Successful gunner in the Falcon the first time
-Proceeds to make said impossible shot via using the force - something he had no training on whatsoever - by eye, in a ship he's never flown before

He's an expert at everything he tries. Hmmm.

I don't think you have thought about Luke's abilities or the obvious parallels with Rey very much.

Oh, of course I haven't. It's not as if i've been discussing this for days...

The issue with Rey is that there is NO journey. She knows straight away how to use her force abilities without any prior instruction, and that's it. There should be a proper character arc for her in this movie and not just something stretched across three.

 

[Eidan]

It's really stunning to me that this is in anyway an issue. Rey, a scavenger who regularly rummages and repairs ships on a hostile planet, has skill sets that compliment that upbringing. At no point did it ever cross my mind that she was too skilled, especially since we see her make mistakes throughout the film. I honestly don't think this line a criticism would have anywhere close to this much traction if the character were male.

 

[Jarmel]

Luke accomplished tons in ANH outside of blowing up the Death Star.

Anakin won the pod race and helped win the battle of Naboo at the age of 8(?) and went on to be a successful Jedi after a timeskip.

Luke even needed Han to do a last second bailout with Han shooting Vader. Luke needed a ton of help in the film.

Anakin was literally Force Jesus. Even then he got wrecked by Dooku in AotC. Badly wrecked.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

For the first, Ip Man, seen in the video fighting 10 men without getting a scratch. This is a case of a story where you see a good man just trying to live his life in an unjust world and winning handily when that world tries to mess with him.

An example of both is All-Star Superman, a story where Superman is dying and decides to spend his remaining time doing all he can for the world. You could also apply any number of myths about a single person.

I'm not saying that those examples don't have instances of another character's viewpoint or something, but the focus is definitely on the main character.

These are good examples. Thank you

 

[bananafactory]

Do we really need a thread for this? It's been discussed to death in the spoilers thread and people are entrenched in their sides.

Edit: Your post is very good and I dont mean to brush it aside.

 

[gutter_trash]

If Rey is a Mary sue them what does that make Jake Anakin Lloyd in Phantom Menace?

The absurdity of 7 year old Anakin sets the bar high, real high on unrealistic perfection to the point that it makes Rey seem closer to Luke than Jake Lloyd

 

[Angry Grimace]

Rey comes off as a Wish Fulfillment Character because TFA has very little downtime in which anything about the characters would actually get explained (which is seemingly on purpose). The only down time we get is a Yoda analogue telling her she's got Force powers and Han basically asking for her to be his new co-pilot becuase she's so awesome.

I mean, you could just as well argue the same thing about Finn - faceless nobody who breaks the mold and is unrealistically brave in saving the girl, etc. (of course, whether a romance subplot between Finn and Rey actually exists is extremely debatable, but I'm positive that it was made that way on purpose to get people invested in the plot in between movies)

 

[Neoweee]

If Rey is a Mary sue than what does that make Jake Anakin Lloyd in Phantom Menace?

The absurdity of 7 year old Anakin sets the bar high, real high on unrealistic perfection to the point that it makes Rey seem closer to Luke than Jake Lloyd

Yes, little Anakin counts. And he is widely regarded as a bad character.

 

[Trojita]

Bella is a Mary Sue?

She doesn't seem to have the power to be. She has a ridicilous overperceived importance in the Twilight world, but I don't really see that as an exact clarifier that they are a Mary Sue. Bland character? Yeah.

About Rey,

I see using the Force like being able to access a Gamefaqs faq about what to do in a game when everyone else doesn't have one. When Rey finally closes her eyes and let's the force in, it basically guides her on what to do. Same thing with the Skywalkers and their impressive feats with technology. Anakin had the pod racer, Luke had the X-Wing, and Rey has the Millenium Falcon. The force guides them on how to do these things, even if they themselves aren't aware of it.

 

[LegendofLex]

The issue with Rey is that there is NO journey. She knows straight away how to use her force abilities without any prior instruction, and that's it. There should be a proper character arc for her in this movie and not just something stretched across three.

She doesn't, though.

She fumbles at each of them at least as much as Luke did, and the ultimate turning point is when she lets the Force guide her instead of trying to "figure out" what to do.

Heck, we could say the real constant of this film is that the Force's guidance > training.

 

[BlackGoku03]

I think the complaints stem from us knowing nothing about Rey. Nothing besides a cryptic flashback and Luke staring at her.

I think once more info is provided through the second and third movie, things will be clearer and you won't hear that complaint from someone who can watch the movies back to back.

Or I could be wrong in three years if they decide to keep her origins a secret till episode IX. (Don't do this Disney)

 

[Vice]

Oh, of course I haven't. It's not as if i've been discussing this for days...

The issue with Rey is that there is NO journey. She knows straight away how to use her force abilities without any prior instruction, and that's it. There should be a proper character arc for her in this movie and not just something stretched across three.

The way the franchise currently works means a lot gets explained in tv shows, comics and novels now. It's different thanhow the series was handled in the past but Disney is very into having story scattered over multiple sources for Star Wars.

 

[Prompto]

Luke even needed Han to do a last second bailout with Han shooting Vader. Luke needed a ton of help in the film.

Anakin was literally Force Jesus. Even then he got wrecked by Dooku in AotC. Badly wrecked.

Rey did as well. Remember she got knocked out and Finn had to save her ass from Kylo. And Rey wasn't fighting a Sith Lord in this movie, she was fighting a trainee who had just killed his own father and had been shot up.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Destroys Death Star in one shot
First time he turns on the light saber he knows where the laser is coming from within 45 seconds
Fends off Vader and tie fighters with no space fighting practice


Rey was flying the ship but Finn is the one who makes the shots which kill the tie fighters.
Finn destroys the turrets in the first instance he is out in space in a tie fighters. Is he a Mary Sue ?
Finn nearly kills Ren with the light saber


Here is a fact

Ren is only force sensitive due to his family but his level is lower than Rey and perhaps even Luke .


Rey is more like anakin than Ren is like Vader

Just to nitpick here, Luke doesn't really fend off Vader and the TIE fighter pilots. He was about to be blown up before Han and Chewie showed up.

 

[Toxi]

It's amazing how many people are ignoring one of the core points of Veelk's post: That traditionally "Mary Sue" was used for characters who shifted everything in a story to favor them and be about them like a black hole.

Being a Mary Sue is less about having flaws and more about how the story has to bend over backwards for a character.

 

[Boke1879]

I think the complaints stem from us knowing nothing about Rey. Nothing besides a cryptic flashback and Luke staring at her.

I think once more info is provided through the second and third movie, things will be clearer and you won't hear that complaint from someone who can watch the movies back to back.

Or I could be wrong in three years if they decide to keep her origins a secret till episode IX. (Don't do this Disney)

I assume once the full trilogy is out we'll look at all of this with a different lens.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

If Rey is a Mary sue them what does that make Jake Anakin Lloyd in Phantom Menace?

The absurdity of 7 year old Anakin sets the bar high, real high on unrealistic perfection to the point that it makes Rey seem closer to Luke than Jake Lloyd

This isn't the greatest line of argumentation. Little Anakin is a total Gary Stu and almost universally regarded as a terrible character.

 

[Branduil]

I like your definition of a Mary Sue being a narrative black hole. People need to understand not just what Mary/Gary Stus actually are, but why they're bad: because they rob every other character in the story of their agency. True Mary/Gary Stus are characters like Bella Swan/Kirito from Sword Art Online, where the universe literally revolves around them.

 

[KingSnake]

Luke even needed Han to do a last second bailout with Han shooting Vader. Luke needed a ton of help in the film.

Anakin was literally Force Jesus. Even then he got wrecked by Dooku in AotC. Badly wrecked.

It's explained a lot in this thread how Rey isn't perfect either.

 

[Eidan]

Bella is a Mary Sue?

She doesn't seem to have the power to be. She has a ridicilous overperceived importance in the Twilight world, but I don't really see that as an exact clarifier that they are a Mary Sue. Bland character? Yeah.

About Rey,

I see using the Force like being able to access a Gamefaqs faq about what to do in a game when everyone else doesn't have one. When Rey finally closes her eyes and let's the force in, it basically guides her on what to do. Same thing with the Skywalkers and their impressive feats with technology. Anakin had the pod racer, Luke had the X-Wing, and Rey has the Millenium Falcon. The force guides them on how to do these things, even if they themselves aren't aware of it.

The first time I ever heard of the term it was in relation to Bella Swan. You're the first person I've ever seen say she isn't one. I think the OP does a great job of explaining how the term is really more about narrative power than some "power level" bullshit.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

She doesn't, though.

She fumbles at each of them at least as much as Luke did, and the ultimate turning point is when she lets the Force guide her instead of trying to "figure out" what to do.

Heck, we could say the real constant of this film is that the Force's guidance > training.

When does she struggle with it? I can't recall her being introduced to the concept of the force until Kylo tries to mind read her. After that she seems to have an understanding of the mind controlling aspects of Jedi, and then after less than a minute has mastered it.

There's nothing reluctant about it after that.

The way the franchise currently works means a lot gets explained in tv shows, comics and novels now. It's different thanhow the series was handled in the past but Disney is very into having story scattered over multiple sources for Star Wars.

I get that for the plot, but not for character development within the movie.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Being a Mary Sue is less about having flaws and more about how the story revolves around a character.

It's sorta funny that a phrase that (so far as I can tell) was borne from Star Trek fanfic has come to be a decent signifier of how silly Star Wars fans can be.

 

[MMarston]

I'm going to take solace in the fact that Lucasfilm will not care for this argument and improve the character as they see fit.

 

[Blood Diamonds]

Great OP! I agree completely, Rey is an awesome character for her own reasons just like Finn and the rest.

 

[Sanjuro]

I agree to some extent. As mentioned in the other thread, Luke does have a ton of luck go his way, but Rey's learning curve is vastly superior to his.

Does that mean she is a poorly done character? No. I just think there is reasoning within the universe which will highlight why her abilities were accelerated throughout the narrative of the film.