Rottenwatch: TRANSFORMERS Revenge of the Fallen

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Solo said:
Of course not. They're made for selling, well, comics.
Well obviously. You're buying the comic to get the story.

The original 80s Transformers movie was insulting enough. But if a full fledged serious series/movie came out, it would be even more insulting when you consider what the entire point of the production would be. The franchise just doesnt lend itself to such a thing.
 
jimmbow said:
Yes, those series suck. But if you took the story thats there in terms of the mythos and stuff, and gave hasbro/takara the finger, you could completely re-do G1 to have a very very compelling story. Its there to do, but no one does it.

True. And I do not believe that everything has to be grim and dark to be good. That seems to be hollywood's standing point and reason to reboot everything now.
 
Dead said:
It will never be, because the sole reason for any Transformers media to exist is merchandising and selling toys to kids.

It's awesome watching Mattel try to make toys out of The Dark Knight

Remember Batman's blue power suit!?

pTRU1-4827843dt.jpg


Or when Batman used his purple gun thing on The Joker?!

pTRU1-4827866dt.jpg


Even when I was a kid, I hated these types of action figures for movies.

"WTF. This isnt from Batman Returns. BATMAN DIDNT LOOK LIKE THIS!"
 
Yeah those are hilarious. But Nolan has no input in that whatsoever :D

Hasbro is directly involved in the making of any TF media, thats the difference :)
 
Dead said:
Well obviously. You're buying the comic to get the story.

The original 80s Transformers movie was insulting enough. But if a full fledged serious series/movie came out, it would be even more insulting when you consider what the entire point of the production would be. The franchise just doesnt lend itself to such a thing.

I realize you have an X-Men avatar, and this is like trying to talk a vegetarian into eating a hot dog...

But comics aren't much higher on the maturity rung than toys and action figures. They've BECOME more mature over time because of changing times and out of the need to push the story envelope further and further over time. But don't kid yourself. When comics and comic books started, they were just as much for children as you think the 'Transformers' toys are.
 
SonicMegaDrive said:
I realize you have an X-Men avatar, and this is like trying to talk a vegetarian into eating a hot dog...

But comics aren't much higher on the maturity rung than toys and action figures. They've BECOME more mature over time because of changing times and out of the need to push the story envelope further and further over time. But don't kid yourself. When comics and comic books started, they were just as much for children as you think the 'Transformers' toys are.
The past has no bearing on it whatsoever. Even in the 80s, comics were already moving in further directions.

Walk in to a comic book store today and tell me how many kids you see.

That doesnt change that Transformers is STILL a franchise operated mainly on the basis of how to sell the most toys.

Im not saying Transformers should have evolved as well. It shouldnt, because it is what it is. Batman will always be a comic created to tell stories, and those stores have evolved over time. Transformers will always be something made to sell toys.
 
SonicMegaDrive said:
I realize you have an X-Men avatar, and this is like trying to talk a vegetarian into eating a hot dog...

But comics aren't much higher on the maturity rung than toys and action figures. They've BECOME more mature over time because of changing times and out of the need to push the story envelope further and further over time. But don't kid yourself. When comics and comic books started, they were just as much for children as you think the 'Transformers' toys are.
Eh, depends. The reverse is also true.

The original Wonder Woman comics were about bondage and lesbian fetishes until the comic was taken over and basically transformed her into a housewife at one point.
 
Dead said:
The past has no bearing on it whatsoever. Even in the 80s, comics were already moving in further directions.

Walk in to a comic book store today and tell me how many kids you see.

That doesnt change that Transformers is STILL a franchise operated mainly on the basis of how to sell the most toys.

That's the point.

Transformers as a franchise has been around how long? 25 years?

Superman and comics have been around for over 70. It's taken comics a long time to evolve to the point where they are today.

I'm sure in time, Transformers will 'evolve' as a franchise and steer into something more than just 'kids' stuff'(if it has not already done so).

Everything starts off in a small and humble way.

I think it's short-sighted to think that Trasformers can NEVER be 'good' and can only exist to please kids who play with action figures.
 
I'm looking forward to this.

The first one was good, dumb fun. I still quote "Bring the rain." to my friends, so deliciously cheesy.
 
SonicMegaDrive said:
That's the point.

Transformers as a franchise has been around how long? 25 years?

Superman and comics have been around for over 70. It's taken comics a long time to evolve to the point where they are today.

I'm sure in time, Transformers will 'evolve' as a franchise and steer into something more than just 'kids' stuff'(if it has not already done so).

Everything starts off in a small and humble way.

I think it's short-sighted to think that Trasformers can NEVER be 'good' and can only exist to please kids who play with action figures.
I didnt say it can never be good. Beast Wars is good.

But it can never rise over being anything more than a Toy Franchise because thats what it was, thats what it is, and that what Hasbro, rightfully, will continue to want it to be.
 
Dead said:
I didnt say it can never be good. Beast Wars is good.

But it can never rise over being anything more than a Toy Franchise because thats what it was, thats what it is, and that what Hasbro, rightfully, wants it to be.

See, I don't agree.

It's already a movie franchise.

Most of the people who are going to flock to the theaters this weekend don't play with toys. Many of them played with the toys when they were little kids, to be sure.

But that doesn't mean they don't enjoy the films for what they are: films.

It became more than just a toy the moment those little kids who played with those toys became adults.
 
Right, then youre ignoring the whole argument that started the mess.

People wanting the films to be serious Sci-Fi films, which they are not. Which I guarantee they will never be.

Why? Because its Transformers.
 
Dead said:
Right, then youre ignoring the whole argument that started the mess.

People wanting the films to be serious Sci-Fi films, which they are not. Which I guarantee they will never be.

Why? Because its Transformers.

I'm not ignoring it.

I'm saying that the films, as they are, mostly appeal to guys in their 20's and early 30's. Kids enjoy the films too, but the movies are largely successful because of those men who grew up with the franchise.

The films as many have stated are not high art. Heck, a lot of people don't even consider them good films.

But that's not to say that they aren't or shouldn't be. Just because Transformers started out as mere toys doesn't give the film or tv or comic creators an excuse to not try to do more with the source material.

The franchise as it exists today, is not just for kids anymore. And as such, can appeal to adults on a more serious level, should any creators decide to take it to that level. I agree that may not be the direction that Hasbro decides to take it. But I do feel that it would be a lost opportunity on their part to not try to do more with it. There's an audience out there for just this sort of thing, as you can evidently see in this thread and around the internet.
 
SonicMegaDrive said:
The franchise as it exists today, is not just for kids anymore. And as such, can appeal to adults on a more serious level, should any creators decide to take it to that level. I agree that may not be the direction that Hasbro decides to take it. But I do feel that it would be a lost opportunity on their part to not try to do more with it. There's an audience out there for just this sort of thing, as you can evidently see in this thread and around the internet.

How does that work? If they didnt want to appeal to kids Hasbro would let someone do a series or movie and not worry about the toys, since most adults wouldnt buy them.
 
Youre just warping the concept then

Sure the films can be better (I never argued they were even good), but in the end they, or at least the first, are loyal to what Transformers has always been, accepting of course the limitations that come with a live action film.

The whole charm of Transformers, to me at least I guess, is that it is goofy while still being a Giant Robot series.

There are tons of serious Robot animation. Theres no reason Transformers should have to lose what makes it Transformers, just to appeal to some 20-30 somethings.

Transformers isnt a concept that grew up along with its fanbase.

Its a concept that its fanbase outgrew while it continued to cater to kids of the same age. Thats just how it is.
 
jimmbow said:
How does that work? If they didnt want to appeal to kids Hasbro would let someone do a series or movie and not worry about the toys, since most adults wouldnt buy them.

Well, like anything else, it can appeal to everybody. It can be for kids AND adults.

As a concept, what is Transformers?

It's large alien robots that wage war with one another that come to Earth and carry on their war there after thousands of years of being in suspended animation.

That's not much more of an outlandish concept as, say, a man who puts on long underwear and flies around and saves people from burning buildings and shoots lasers from his eyes.

I'm not arguing that Transformers should be dark and moody or directed by Frank Miller or anything extreme like that. But the stories can be written in a way that adults can enjoy them as well as children.

This really isn't that difficult to comprehend.
 
fucking nostalgia whores :lol

honestly if this movie didnt have the transformers name you guys would be making fun of how lame it looks.
 
I understand where Dead is coming from I think. Transformers is too much of a silly premise set of characters to take seriously, even more so than superheroes. Is it the lack of character development for the bots or what?
 
G-Fex said:
I understand where Dead is coming from I think. Transformers is too much of a silly premise set of characters to take seriously, even more so than superheroes. Is it the lack of character development for the bots or what?
Its just that Goofiness and sillyness is part of what makes Transformers, Transformers. Lose that, and...?

Even saying that, there are definitely parts of Bays movies that could/should be sliced out, but overall, it matches the tone that I expect,and want out of something Transformers related.
 
Dead said:
Its just that Goofiness and sillyness is part of what makes Transformers, Transformers. Lose that, and...?

Even saying that, there are definitely parts of Bays movies that could/should be sliced out, but overall, it matches the tone that I expect,and want out of something Transformers related.

I agree that's just what it is. It's like trying to ground the fantastic four (which fox is trying to do) and make it darker. Transformers was always about good bots vs. bad ones.
 
SonicMegaDrive said:
Well, like anything else, it can appeal to everybody. It can be for kids AND adults.

As a concept, what is Transformers?

It's large alien robots that wage war with one another that come to Earth and carry on their war there after thousands of years of being in suspended animation.

That's not much more of an outlandish concept as, say, a man who puts on long underwear and flies around and saves people from burning buildings and shoots lasers from his eyes.

I'm not arguing that Transformers should be dark and moody or directed by Frank Miller or anything extreme like that. But the stories can be written in a way that adults can enjoy them as well as children.

This really isn't that difficult to comprehend.


lol but kids will eat up anything. its the prick parents that limit them.

But I think Dead is kinda dead on unless I'm missing his point. If your a TF fan, youll like the films. If your a movie critiquer or go in expecting anything other than eye-candy, youll hate it. TF as a whole, the story thats been developed over the years, has potential. Its there. Its just really never going to happen. So for now, its just fun-ness with cool looking robots who kick ass.
 
around 40% is about right imo

I dont think Transformers needs to be very cerebral, but I want giant robots fighting each other and I want that for the majority of the film. I dont want a 2 1/2 hour film with an hour taken up with a shitty love story/shitty room mate/shitty parents/shitty college lecture, 30 mins of Bay's 'hilarious' humour such as "IM SO EXCITED"/dogs humping/transformer testicles, and 30 mins of US army running around/aircraft flying around/government officials being weasel-y. Of the remainder, 20 mins is probably of indiscriminate metal bits hitting/falling off something/rolling around on screen, which doesn't leave a lot of time for actual bot-on-bot hardcore thump fun.

The biggest disappointment for me this whole re-imagining is the actual transformers, both the designs and the way they are utilised. I was looking forward to seeing Devastator, but it might aswell not have been in the film.
 
kojacker said:
around 40% is about right imo

I dont think Transformers needs to be very cerebral, but I want giant robots fighting each other and I want that for the majority of the film. I dont want a 2 1/2 hour film with an hour taken up with a shitty love story/shitty room mate/shitty parents/shitty college lecture, 30 mins of Bay's 'hilarious' humour such as "IM SO EXCITED"/dogs humping/transformer testicles, and 30 mins of US army running around/aircraft flying around/government officials being weasel-y. Of the remainder, 20 mins is probably of indiscriminate metal bits hitting/falling off something/rolling around on screen, which doesn't leave a lot of time for actual bot-on-bot hardcore thump fun.

The biggest disappointment for me this whole re-imagining is the actual transformers, both the designs and the way they are utilised. I was looking forward to seeing Devastator, but it might aswell not have been in the film.

When did you see it?
 
Dead said:
The past has no bearing on it whatsoever. Even in the 80s, comics were already moving in further directions.

Walk in to a comic book store today and tell me how many kids you see.

That doesnt change that Transformers is STILL a franchise operated mainly on the basis of how to sell the most toys.

Im not saying Transformers should have evolved as well. It shouldnt, because it is what it is. Batman will always be a comic created to tell stories, and those stores have evolved over time. Transformers will always be something made to sell toys.

Transformers the films target market are the people who are in their 20s now who GREW up with the toys/cartoon. Not little kids.
 
the transformer movies may be aimed at males who grew up in the 80s. but that doesn't cancel the fact that it's based on toys.

and the story is utterly ridiculous so there really isn't much leverage there either. it may not be for kids per se, but it's pure pulp and there's no way around that.
 
i thought i was going into a Transformers thread but i've apparently stumbled into an ocean of pretentiousness........and i'm drowning.
 
Anticitizen One said:
Transformers the films target market are the people who are in their 20s now who GREW up with the toys/cartoon. Not little kids.

It's aimed at people in their 20s, really?
Over here it carries a 12A certificate (anyone can see it under 12 accompanied by an adult) and in the movie theatre I went to the showing was packed with under 12s with parents and young teenagers.

Outside of my slightly 'nerdier' friends I don't know anyone in my age group (I'm 23) that wants/or wanted to go and see Transformers 1 or 2.

This reminds me a lot of the Star Wars prequels. Because the original Star Wars movies came out in the late 70's/80's adults in their 30s and 40s somehow assumed that the new movies should be aimed at them. They forget that Star Wars was aimed at children when it originally came out. Same with Transformers.

If this movie is aimed at people in their 20s then they probably did a poor job because only the nerdiest or least pretentious people from that age bracket will enjoy it. If, as I suspect, the movie was actually primarily aimed at teenagers/children, with just enough awesome action and sexual innuendo to please the parents/older adults who grew up with the toys, then they did a great job.
 
Saw the movie last night and it was really great. If you didn't like the first one their is nothing for you here. Right from the off Bay just throws in a massive and i mean massive action scene the build up is awesome and when you see how they introduce 'big daddy' :D

The college scenes are fairy amusing and shia carries them well,we get introduced to a few new human characters including one new one who shia spends a lot of time with through the movie.But yeah these scenes zip by fairly quickly and have a great creepy pay off,more than meets the eye indeed for one character...

I love this that all the Decepticons are given much more screen time in the first movie they were mere background dressing this time their scenes crackle with treachery. For the perverts their are a lot of Megan Fox glory shots. But the action was amazing,all shot in that unmistakable Bay style i really loved some of the shot compositions later in the movie.

To say anymore would ruin things you should see for yourself and i know how GAF is about spoilers so i'll hold off of those.

But yeah great summer movie.
 
jaypah said:
i thought i was going into a Transformers thread but i've apparently stumbled into an ocean of pretentiousness........and i'm drowning.

:lol

NutJobJim said:
It's aimed at people in their 20s, really?
Over here it carries a 12A certificate (anyone can see it under 12 accompanied by an adult) and in the movie theatre I went to the showing was packed with under 12s with parents and young teenagers.

Outside of my slightly 'nerdier' friends I don't know anyone in my age group (I'm 23) that wants/or wanted to go and see Transformers 1 or 2.

This reminds me a lot of the Star Wars prequels. Because the original Star Wars movies came out in the late 70's/80's adults in their 30s and 40s somehow assumed that the new movies should be aimed at them. They forget that Star Wars was aimed at children when it originally came out. Same with Transformers.

If this movie is aimed at people in their 20s then they probably did a poor job because only the nerdiest or least pretentious people from that age bracket will enjoy it. If, as I suspect, the movie was actually primarily aimed at teenagers/children, with just enough awesome action and sexual innuendo to please the parents/older adults who grew up with the toys, then they did a great job.

damn dude, i dont know where you live, but here in the states the movie is aimed at people 20+ really. the rating of a movie has nothing to do with its intended audience. i dont know any 20 year old that isnt interested in watching this for the pure action alone. being "nerdy" has nothing to do with it.
 
Ashhong said:
damn dude, i dont know where you live, but here in the states the movie is aimed at people 20+ really. the rating of a movie has nothing to do with its intended audience. i dont know any 20 year old that isnt interested in watching this for the pure action alone. being "nerdy" has nothing to do with it.

This.

I've never seen any action movie were so many of my chick friends couldn't wait to see it.
 
Dead said:
Transformers isnt a concept that grew up along with its fanbase.

Its a concept that its fanbase outgrew while it continued to cater to kids of the same age. Thats just how it is.

Not entirely true. The mainline brand always has catered to kids and always will, but there have always been pockets of the brand that have gone beyond that. After the Marvel comic stopped selling particularly well and Simon Furman took over, the storytelling stepped up to at least the level of every other Marvel comic on the shelves at the time. A similar thing happened with the Beast Wars show, in that Hasbro's lack of supervision over what at the time was a dying brand let the writers go nuts and do something beyond the usual toy cartoon, and it essentially revived the brand. The Dreamwave relaunch in 2000 was an attempt to wrangle the adult fans, which didn't work all that well, and the IDW relaunch after that was even moreso, and has succeeded.

Hasbro has stated without exception that the Classics/Universe toy subline is targeted at nostalgic adult collectors as much if not more than they are at kids (which is kind of bullshit anyway, because a kid will ask for the cool jet that turns into a robot and not care if it looks just like Starscream did 25 years ago). Also consider the large number of small production run exclusives based on obscure G1 stuff that pop up at conventions and the like.

The Japanese market is very heavily targeted at adults, with things like Binaltech (released here as Alternators, very much not toys for young children) and the Masterpiece line ($100 Transformers are not aimed at kids). This is doubly ironic considering the Japanese TV shows and comic stories are probably the youngest-skewing ones in the world, and sometimes read more like Sailor Moon spinoffs than a Transformers story.

Anyway, the point is that Hasbro knows the brand appeals to adults and kids, and they do a pretty good job of catering to both audiences with targeted sublines and simply by making things that appeal to both ends of the spectrum (see: TF Animated). However, your point is salient in the sense that the movies are so huge and seen by so many more people (potential customers) than any other element of Transformers that they must be broadly appealing by necessity.

If someone wants serious sci-fi Transformers stories, read the IDW comics. Dreamworks is never going to make a movie like that because that wouldn't make a billion dollars worldwide, and they're right to do that. Even if you hate the movies, if you love Transformers you should at least take solace in the fact that the extreme success of these films has basically guaranteed Transformers as a brand for decades, possibly forever.
 
JimmyV said:
This.

I've never seen any action movie were so many of my chick friends couldn't wait to see it.

Damn I wish I knew less pretentious/stuck up chicks.
All of girls at work looked at me with disbelief when I told them I was gonna go watch Transformers over the weekend, one even had a smirk on her face :lol
Even the guys were very sceptical and only conceded when I told them that there would probably be semi nude shots of Megan Fox (I lied).

I had the same problem with the first movie and ended up having to watch it on DVD instead because nobody wanted to see it (I'm glad about this though because I didn't really like the 1st one.)
 
NutJobJim said:
Damn I wish I knew less pretentious/stuck up chicks.
All of girls at work looked at me with disbelief when I told them I was gonna go watch Transformers over the weekend, one even had a smirk on her face :lol
Even the guys were very sceptical and only conceded when I told them that there would probably be semi nude shots of Megan Fox (I lied).

I had the same problem with the first movie and ended up having to watch it on DVD instead because nobody wanted to see it (I'm glad about this though because I didn't really like the 1st one.)

going to the movies alone isn't so bad. Well at least not to me.
 
Anticitizen One said:
Transformers the films target market are the people who are in their 20s now who GREW up with the toys/cartoon. Not little kids.


No.


This film targets as many people as possible. It is a mass market film. It is broad.
 
NutJobJim said:
Damn I wish I knew less pretentious/stuck up chicks.
All of girls at work looked at me with disbelief when I told them I was gonna go watch Transformers over the weekend, one even had a smirk on her face :lol
Even the guys were very sceptical and only conceded when I told them that there would probably be semi nude shots of Megan Fox (I lied).

I had the same problem with the first movie and ended up having to watch it on DVD instead because nobody wanted to see it (I'm glad about this though because I didn't really like the 1st one.)


:lol I had that issue with the first movie too. NOW everyone likes it.
 
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