I wasn't happy with the way the character progress (regress?) was handled but I think you are being a little disingenuous here. He does not "go to the dark side" because the Jedi Council wouldn't promote him to Master. By the time he is killing children, he has been thoroughly manipulated and brainwashed by the Emperor into believing that he will learn the secrets of cheating death. Anakin's central weaknesses are his attachment to others and his major insecurities about losing the people he loves. This is what Yoda picked up early on in TPM. The Emperor, as you know, exploits the hell out of this weakness and by the time he has struck down Mace Windu, there is no going back for Anakin. Cutting down children is just a means to an end.
RTTP Star Wars - Return of the Jedi is the best
- Thread starter Game4life
- Start date
- Status
I wasn't happy with the way the character progress (regress?) was handled but I think you are being a little disingenuous here. He does not "go to the dark side" because the Jedi Council wouldn't promote him to Master. By the time he is killing children, he has been thoroughly manipulated and brainwashed by the Emperor into believing that he will learn the secrets of cheating death. Anakin's central weaknesses are his attachment to others and his major insecurities about losing the people he loves. This is what Yoda picked up early on in TPM. The Emperor, as you know, exploits the hell out of this weakness and by the time he has struck down Mace Windu, there is no going back for Anakin. Cutting down children is just a means to an end.
Secret Fawful
Member
No, no, I meant as far as cringing over the dialogue. It's Star Wars dialogue. Star Wars dialogue is hokey. (Shrug)That wasn't a complaint about the Ewoks, though. I don't hate them, man. I don't think they're good, but I can tolerate them. I like the baby ones. They're very cute
Spiritreaver
Member
They had to give us something after taking away the singing.
I think manipulated/brainwashed is giving the Emperor too much credit. He more or less just bait-and-switched Anakin. I never felt like Anakin was truly seduced by the power of the dark side, he was just tricked into turning evil.
I agree with you but the transition from 'caring for someone' to 'caring for someone enough' to kill innocents was not handled well in the movie. I know the sequence avenging his mother aimed at easing the audience to Anakin's transition but I feel that was not enough.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
OP is right. RotJ is the best.
As a kid, I loved seeing all the freaks and scary stuff in Jabbas palace. Naturally I appreciated Slave-Leia more when I got older...
There you go.
Then you have the awesome speeder bikes and Biker Scouts - the coolest of all Star Wars designs. And finally the dramatic light saber climax. Yes, there is the kiddy Ewok crap, but all the other great stuff makes up for that.
When I was a kid, I rated the original trilogy as RotJ>ANH>ESB. This was because I found all the Yoda stuff extrememly boring and hated that the good guys didnt "win" in ESB.
Now I appreciate ESB more, so I rate them RotJ>ESB>ANH.
As a kid, I loved seeing all the freaks and scary stuff in Jabbas palace. Naturally I appreciated Slave-Leia more when I got older...
I agree
There you go.
Then you have the awesome speeder bikes and Biker Scouts - the coolest of all Star Wars designs. And finally the dramatic light saber climax. Yes, there is the kiddy Ewok crap, but all the other great stuff makes up for that.
When I was a kid, I rated the original trilogy as RotJ>ANH>ESB. This was because I found all the Yoda stuff extrememly boring and hated that the good guys didnt "win" in ESB.
Now I appreciate ESB more, so I rate them RotJ>ESB>ANH.
Fancy Clown
Member
Nah, Empire's is the best. The cinematography, set design, progression of environments, fight progression, etc just take it all a notch above. The ROTJ fight is easily second best though, it just doesn't feel quite as dramatic and imposing, and doesn't have the benefit of a great movie leading up to the fight.
I feel like the ROTJ fight works because of three things:
-The awesome cinematography/lighting in the Emperor's throne room.
-It's a battle of wills between the three of them.
-All of them (Hamill, JEJ, Ian McDiarmid) are acting their asses off throughout.
-It has a great resolution.
-The awesome cinematography/lighting in the Emperor's throne room.
-It's a battle of wills between the three of them.
-All of them (Hamill, JEJ, Ian McDiarmid) are acting their asses off throughout.
-It has a great resolution.
What's frustrating (in a good way, i guess) is that I can't find a real counterpoint to this to support the ROTJ fight. I think I just personally prefer the Jedi fight more because Luke and Vader are a tad more evenly matched, whereas the whole fight in Empire is basically a one-sided beatdown. Although when Luke snaps in the ROTJ fight it kind of becomes a mirror of the Empire fight, with Luke being the one laying the smack down on Vader. The end of the two fights are basically identical.
gutter_trash
Banned
#teamYubNub
Nope. Although I'll give you it has a more clear cut plot similar to A New Hope. But I prefer riskier angles like Empire that eschew traditional movie plotting.
Empire has best overall tone and thematics. Best lightsaber duel (in terms of context and impact I don't give a fuck for technicalities of the movement its about the framing and importance to the characters in the scene and the mythos for me). Two of the series best action sequences that seamlessly involve plot movement and character beats (opening battle on Hoth and the Asteroid Chase). Two of the best realized settings that felt truly like other planets (Bespin City and Degobah) and that ending. It arguably has best Williams score too.
Jedi is fun but it's rushed, a bit too jokey, has to work too hard to try and tie everything up and its a bit too frenetic at times. It does boast the superb speeder chase and while not quite as good as Empire the final duel following the terrifically creepy scenes with the Emperor is pretty damn good too. It's probably the best they could have done given how much plot Lucas decided to tie up in a third film instead of just letting the series expand naturally but it's just that bit too uneven and Endor is just to Earth like for comfort following the desert and ice locations of A New Hope and Empire and the clearly unearthly swamps of Degobah and magical setting of Bespin floating in the clouds of a gas giant.
Empire has best overall tone and thematics. Best lightsaber duel (in terms of context and impact I don't give a fuck for technicalities of the movement its about the framing and importance to the characters in the scene and the mythos for me). Two of the series best action sequences that seamlessly involve plot movement and character beats (opening battle on Hoth and the Asteroid Chase). Two of the best realized settings that felt truly like other planets (Bespin City and Degobah) and that ending. It arguably has best Williams score too.
Jedi is fun but it's rushed, a bit too jokey, has to work too hard to try and tie everything up and its a bit too frenetic at times. It does boast the superb speeder chase and while not quite as good as Empire the final duel following the terrifically creepy scenes with the Emperor is pretty damn good too. It's probably the best they could have done given how much plot Lucas decided to tie up in a third film instead of just letting the series expand naturally but it's just that bit too uneven and Endor is just to Earth like for comfort following the desert and ice locations of A New Hope and Empire and the clearly unearthly swamps of Degobah and magical setting of Bespin floating in the clouds of a gas giant.
Yeah, Empire is supposed to be a beatdown. It's supposed to demonstrate that Yoda was right in warning Luke that he wasn't ready.
It can easily be argued that Luke still did the right thing, because his friends would have died if he didn't interfere, however.
Yep, the whole point of the fight is that Luke is screwed. I just prefer the more evenly matched Jedi fight more.
I agree with you OP. It gets dismissed for 'lol ewoks' but so what? They're guerrila as fuck. And like you mentioned, it has plenty of other amazing bits. The vader-Luke-emperor love triangle was epic.
Empire gets held up as the best because it's all dark, but they only had the luxury of making empire because they knew they'd have a resolution with Jedi. So it cannot exist or be reviewed in a vacuum IMO. And Star Wars is a boys own adventure, a Flash Gordon style pulp serial. It isn't meant to be dark, it's meant to be fun.
Empire gets held up as the best because it's all dark, but they only had the luxury of making empire because they knew they'd have a resolution with Jedi. So it cannot exist or be reviewed in a vacuum IMO. And Star Wars is a boys own adventure, a Flash Gordon style pulp serial. It isn't meant to be dark, it's meant to be fun.
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
Not enough talk about Ben Quadinaros in this thread.
That dude is a fuckin G.
That dude is a fuckin G.
But they show very little of Degobah. It feels like the studio decided to have a very very small set showcasing a swamp in Degobah and convince the audience the entire planet is like that. The entire time spent on that planet seems to revolve around that small swamp Luke crash landed in. I wish they showed more of that planet then what they ended up showing.
Agreed. Ben Q is a badass.
Not enough talk about the guy who chooses to save his ice cream maker during the Cloud City evacuation, either.
Opening Jabba segment goes on too long and Ewoks looked too ridiculous to take seriously as a viable threat to Imperial soldiers. Why didn't they just use Wookies in the movie? Would have been much better.
All the Vader/Palpatine/Luke stuff and the space battle are bad ass though.
All the Vader/Palpatine/Luke stuff and the space battle are bad ass though.
PartlyCloudlike
Member
Was the rave scene Lucas's attempt to evoke the ROTJ fight scene? Cuz sheesh!
User 479360
Banned
I need to sit down and watch all three movies from the original trilogy again sometime soon. It's been too long.
Empire is definitely the best of the three, with A New Hope in second. At least, in my opinion. Though RotJ is also great and coming in third just means it's the least great of three fantastic movies.
Empire is definitely the best of the three, with A New Hope in second. At least, in my opinion. Though RotJ is also great and coming in third just means it's the least great of three fantastic movies.
Warm Machine
Member
Return of the Jedi is the most dull of all of the movies. All questions are answered in the simplest way possible and the whole plot feels like it is on auto pilot. Also Han Solo's character is completely nerfed where all Ford does for performance is stand around and smirk for the camera and make goofy faces. Hamill seems to be the only main cast actor that gives a fuck in the whole thing.
It doesn't help the first 30 minutes is simply characters, one by one, arriving at a puppet show and then culminating is some really poorly edited and directed action scene. This is followed by another simple split and regroup on Endor. Then on to Luke giving up and finding and fighting Vader, the ground assault, and the space battle. It has less going on in it plot wise than any other Star Wars movie.
That said, Return of the Jedi has some of the best, and most elaborate and iconic production design out of the entire OT. Speeder Bike Troops. Crimson Guards, Imperial Shuttle, B-Wing, A Wing, The associated pilot designs, Death Star Interior, Jungle troop fatigues, Mon Calamari, etc.
Still a good movie but it is the only one that I'm not excited to ever sit down and watch start to finish.
It doesn't help the first 30 minutes is simply characters, one by one, arriving at a puppet show and then culminating is some really poorly edited and directed action scene. This is followed by another simple split and regroup on Endor. Then on to Luke giving up and finding and fighting Vader, the ground assault, and the space battle. It has less going on in it plot wise than any other Star Wars movie.
That said, Return of the Jedi has some of the best, and most elaborate and iconic production design out of the entire OT. Speeder Bike Troops. Crimson Guards, Imperial Shuttle, B-Wing, A Wing, The associated pilot designs, Death Star Interior, Jungle troop fatigues, Mon Calamari, etc.
Still a good movie but it is the only one that I'm not excited to ever sit down and watch start to finish.
Don't make me destroy you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4zjLJ9-9U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4zjLJ9-9U
Bobby Roberts
Banned
cj_iwakura
Member
Best dogfight ever put on film. Yeah, it remains my favorite too.
Pagusas
Elden Member
I will admit my favorite visual scene is in Empires Strikes Back, where Luke is taking off and Obi Won is saying "that boy is our last hope" and Yoda says "no, there is another". The lighting and sound in that scene, where it goes black, then the xwings engines illuminate the scene. LOVE it. Lighting is one of the things 70's and 80's movies seem to suffer the most at, but ESB got it oh so right. Even Jedi regressed in visual design.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
The actor that played ghost Anakin is the same as the actor played Vader when his mask was off, right? I liked the actor as the ghost.
And when were the stormtroopers ever not complete buffoons?
Remember that time when the lightsaber hit Vader's shoulder armor and didn't destroy it? In Empire?
Lightsaber don't just cut through everything.
You rank Empire as worst in the Original trilogy?! Blasphemy! The dark side has truly clouded your judgement. Lol. Personally though, Empire is my favorite. The growth we see in all the characters is great. The revelations made. The over all sense of doom towards the end. The need to see what happened next. It was and still is magical.
My rank from best to worst.
1.The Empire Strikes Back
2. Return of the Jedi
3. A New Hope
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Attack of the Clones
6. The Phantom Menace
My rank from best to worst.
1.The Empire Strikes Back
2. Return of the Jedi
3. A New Hope
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Attack of the Clones
6. The Phantom Menace
Come to think of it, have they ever really explained what a lightsaber will and won't cut through? Or is it just completely random, depending on what the author/writer wants to do with the story?
Pagusas
Elden Member
It hit a rail in empire also and didn't completely cut through it.
Folks these days need way too much explained for them. What happened to imagination? What happened to inference?
A lightsaber will have no problem slicing clean through your flesh and bone. Nuff said.
A New Hope is the best. Both Empire and Jedi have too many faults. Empire slags in the middle. Great intro and conclusion but boring middle. Jedi is hit or miss all over. The best scene in the entire series in it in... Luke vs Vader with the Empire watching. But it also moves like an outline.
Seriously OP? I didn't like Return of the Jedi. Between them rehashing the blow up the Death Star finale from the first movie, the entire Endor sequence, a completely unnecessary Luke and Leia are siblings twist, and almost every actor in the movie phoning it in to the point where it feels like a high school play, yeah not a big Jedi fan. I don't consider it any better than the prequels. Such a disappointment after following the masterpiece that was Empire.
Funny...my biggest problem with ROTJ has nothing to do with ewoks...its Han Solo. He was originally meant to die at the end of ESB but being so popular, they changed their mind. As a result his entire arc in ROTJ feels out if place...he spends most of the movie acting like a spurned boyfriend than a bad ass smuggler.
The original Star Wars is my favorite, but Empire and then Jedi aren't far behind at all.
I don't mind the ewoks as much as most people, but I do agree that the movie would have been much improved if they had been wookiees instead. It would have worked fine if they were escaped slaves or something, being convinced to fight back. Wouldn't have solved the lack of big people to play them though I suppose.
The movie also has some effects that didn't age the best. The rancor doesn't hold up at all, and the speeder chase isn't too great either. I'd say that's balanced out by the absolutely amazing space battle though, which holds up great to this day. The creature work was also wonderful, Jabba still looks great.
As for the plot, I think it was good all the way through. The second death star is a bit of a rehash, but it works. Adding in the other two final battles makes it different enough from Star Wars to feel fresh.
And I don't think any of the prequels even come close to Jedi.
I don't mind the ewoks as much as most people, but I do agree that the movie would have been much improved if they had been wookiees instead. It would have worked fine if they were escaped slaves or something, being convinced to fight back. Wouldn't have solved the lack of big people to play them though I suppose.
The movie also has some effects that didn't age the best. The rancor doesn't hold up at all, and the speeder chase isn't too great either. I'd say that's balanced out by the absolutely amazing space battle though, which holds up great to this day. The creature work was also wonderful, Jabba still looks great.
As for the plot, I think it was good all the way through. The second death star is a bit of a rehash, but it works. Adding in the other two final battles makes it different enough from Star Wars to feel fresh.
And I don't think any of the prequels even come close to Jedi.
It's difficult to infer when there's contradictory evidence within the span of 10 seconds. One second Luke's lightsaber won't go through the metal railing in ROTJ's end sequence, and then not a few seconds later it cuts through Vader's hand as well as the railing.
I am just curious if they ever found in in-universe explanation for this, or just gave up on it. In the original trilogy they seemed to want the sabers to have weight, and therefore would be more likely to cut if they are swung harder or faster (as a real sword would be). In the prequels the sabers basically just seem like lasers that will slice through anything at any velocity.
Pagusas
Elden Member
But then we'd be robbed of the epic "We're home Chewie" shot in the last trailer!
On a more serious note, while I think TODAY that ending would have been prefered and worked wonderfully, I dont feel back at the release of Rotj something so open ended and somber would have worked well for the original trilogy. Didn't Empire get a lot of hate/flack for ending as it did?
Personally, I would probably go..
5>4>6>>>1>3>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2
It might have been a little dark for people, especially coming a year after E.T., but at the same time people still loved ESB despite that film's dark and unresolved ending. ROTJ's ending would have provided closure but left things open for a future set of films/stories (as it seems Abrams and Kasdan have revisited some of the core elements to which Kurtz alludes).
The whole interview with Kurtz is great, though. It's a shame that he and George went their separate ways, and that Kurtz wasn't involved with the franchise after ESB. Just imagine George having a guy like Gary around for developing the prequels - someone to challenge him and help refine ideas, plot elements, character arcs, etc. - instead of Rick McCallum.
It might have been a little dark for people, especially coming a year after E.T., but at the same time people still loved ESB despite that film's dark and unresolved ending. ROTJ's ending would have provided closure but left things open for a future set of films/stories (as it seems Abrams and Kasdan have revisited some of the core elements to which Kurtz alludes).
The whole interview with Kurtz is great, though. It's a shame that he and George went their separate ways, and that Kurtz wasn't involved with the franchise after ESB. Just imagine George having a guy like Gary around for developing the prequels - someone to challenge him and help refine ideas, plot elements, character arcs, etc. - instead of Rick McCallum.
It is a traditional three act structure with introduction of characters, second one about conflict and third about big climactic resolution. Its also a pulpy adventure. Your version of the ending is too depressing with no real resolution.
MrCunningham
Member
The Storm Troopers were defeated by Teddy Bears with twigs and rocks.
But in all honesty, the Ewoks never really bothered me, and I did like a lot of the sequences that happened on Endor. But I would still rank the movie lower than ESB and possibly ANH.
I actually really like them all, but the only thing in 1 that really shines is the amazing duel at the end, and some cool quotes, the rest is entertaining, but can be a bit boring.
- Status