DoktorEvil
Banned
That describes Earthbound in a nutshell...
The battles in Undertale are really underwhelming, save for the interactive dodge element.
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SbF: Super Best Friends Play Thread: ReBoot
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That describes Earthbound in a nutshell...
The battles in Undertale are really underwhelming, save for the interactive dodge element.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Don't get me started on the random awful conversations with demons in SMT, what a shitshow. The only consistent part about those demons' personalities was that they were all fucking insane.
In what way are they underwhelming? The battles are about the interactions between you and the enemy, not about some kind of deep battle system, and in that way I found them very fun. Each battle with a new enemy I found myself wondering "oh I wonder what the deal is with this guy" and never found myself disappointed.
I feel like you found the battles lacking in areas it never really tried to be good at.
DeadPhoenix
Member
Idk if I'd say all that(i mean, UT probably wouldn't even exist without SMT)... but there are some really annoying factors(like how random the response can seem to be) in the demon conversations and it is absolutely time for them to step it up.
tbf, most random battles just felt bothersome after you figure out how to beat them. Some of them have a couple of ways to spare them, but after you figure out the quickest way for a specific monster, you just do that everytime. Of course, this can be said about every jrpg with a higher random encounter rate then needed and not enough things to keep it interesting.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Sure, maybe at first they were fine, but when I played SMT4 last year they were only bothersome, there isn't really a conversation, just you guessing what that demon wants to hear, which you can't figure out based on anything, you just gotta know. For something that's kind of a major part of the game it's inexcusable how primitive those interactions still are.
I'll agree with that, it would've been better if enemies never repeated themselves and we had more unique ones instead but that's a bit too much to ask from literally one person developing the game.
DoktorEvil
Banned
It could've been the 10/10 hyperbole I heard on GAF, but I was expecting more complexity in a game where the player uses dialogue to defeat an enemy.
The way Matt and Liam show off the game, you can brute force most enemy interactions with the same method.
Granted, you did say they weren't Check-ing the fights, so maybe there is more and they haven't exhausted those dialogue trees.
Making a great case for himself with that typo ;P
DoktorEvil
Banned
"NEPNEP IS THE GREATEST VITA GAME 5EVER"!
"LOVE LIVE IS GARBAGE, BUT I PLAYED IT ANYWAYS 8/10".
"Persona is okay I guess 5/10".
That about covers the expansive Vita library
I think why I personally love Undertale (and why I would rather overrate it rather than just caling it "a good game") is because 1) what it sets out to do, it does it outstandingly well with the amount of good characters, easter eggs and humour as well as keeping it fresh enough and 2) because while yes it's true that it's nothing mindblowingly original and it builds on a lot of tropes...there's just not a lot of games that do that. Especially with that amount of care and detail, even among indies where everyone is so preoccupied in having the most original concept or getting closer to the same kind of arthouse appreciation for movies or litteratures by sometimes shunning interaction between the game and the player rather than celebrating it.
I think holding back undertale because it "doesn't do anything original" or that "the fighting mechanics are not the best" is too cynical and aiming on what YOU want the game to be, rather than focusing on the actual intent of the game
EDIT: For criticism, i'd say i like to go by Goethe's 3 questions rather than just "But is it as good as X other game". As in "What was the artist trying to do, did he do it well and was it worth doing ?"
Doesn't help that Pat's critique is pretty flimsy as it's completely subjective-based and could be reversed to other games of the same genre he loves, like Persona 4 (which, if you don't enjoy most of the characters, can become also a big chore most of the time despite the gameplay)
I think holding back undertale because it "doesn't do anything original" or that "the fighting mechanics are not the best" is too cynical and aiming on what YOU want the game to be, rather than focusing on the actual intent of the game
EDIT: For criticism, i'd say i like to go by Goethe's 3 questions rather than just "But is it as good as X other game". As in "What was the artist trying to do, did he do it well and was it worth doing ?"
Doesn't help that Pat's critique is pretty flimsy as it's completely subjective-based and could be reversed to other games of the same genre he loves, like Persona 4 (which, if you don't enjoy most of the characters, can become also a big chore most of the time despite the gameplay)
I can kind of agree with Pat that the regular random encounters are underwhelming, but at the same time the random encounter rate it so low most of the time it really doesn't become a problem. At the same time, there's a new boss or mini boss fight every 30 minutes or so to mix things up, so I never really felt the battles get stale, at least not on my first couple of playthroughs. So yeah I don't really agree that the main story was boring until the ending, there was always something different going on to keep things interesting, especially with all the extra scenes that happen on pacifist playthroughs.
I see people suggesting Pat do a genocide run, but if his complaints are with the battles I don't think that would help him much considering most of a genocide run is just level grinding random encounters. The two boss fights are the coolest and most challenging in the game sure, but there's a lot of grinding to get there.
I see people suggesting Pat do a genocide run, but if his complaints are with the battles I don't think that would help him much considering most of a genocide run is just level grinding random encounters. The two boss fights are the coolest and most challenging in the game sure, but there's a lot of grinding to get there.
TC McQueen
Member
He better talk about how bullshit it is that his TV version doesn't have external hard drive support.
Saying his critique is subjective based doesn't make much sense because he's explaining what he doesn't like about it. I think the issue is more about realizing that Undertale relies pretty much entirely on it's funny quirky writing and if that doesn't click all the way with someone, they're likely to not be super hot on it, and that's OK.
Oh, and parts of Persona definitely are a chore.
Yeah for sure. I mean I just find it weird he calls it "the most overrated thing he's ever played" based on praise (sometimes overblown) but still based on actual qualities of the game (they just turn out to not be the second coming of half life 2). Overrated for me would be a situation like ..Metal Gear Solid 5 where it got tons of praise at release but you then realise that one of the central pillar of the franchise (story, mainly) isn't holding up at all. (Or you could even go with the metal gear franchise in general, which is contantly praised but you could find a lot wrong in it, especially story wise)
Or how sonic fans keep saying Sonic Adventure 1 is the "best 3d sonic game" even though so many of it's elements are shakey and incomplete
But aaaaah, i'm devolving in semantics and borderline fanboy rants at this point. Overall it's pointless cuz yeah I can certainly understand his opinion =p if you can't connect to most of the characters or the story which are the main driving force then you have a slightly fresh but still standard RPG
DoktorEvil
Banned
Actually I find your analysis more reasoned and nuance filled than Pat's lol
Pat(&Matt to an extreme as well) tends to hyperbolize often and it really drags down any points he does make. When he's right, he's right and his argument/logic is sound, but rarely does that happen.
Yeah, although generally when they yells something hyperbolic/reactionary they're usually pretty fast to call out their own bullshit right after.
Undertale is a small, quaint game full of charm and heart, something that I've sorely missed from the games I've played this year (which includes MGSV and Witcher 3).
Saying it's TenOuttaTen does it a disservice since it raises expectations too high, just go into it without any expectations and be delighted. That's the best way to approach these types of games.
999/VLR are the same way.
Saying it's TenOuttaTen does it a disservice since it raises expectations too high, just go into it without any expectations and be delighted. That's the best way to approach these types of games.
999/VLR are the same way.
DXLelouch153
Banned
Witcher 3 doesnt have heart?
what crack are you smokin fool?
hell the first DLC is called Heart of Stone
pat went into it a little more indepth on ffxiv tonight (after we fought ultros and typhon) and basically said the gameplay is full of simple puzzles and an ok battle system with a really strong ending
his issue with it is just how overrated it is (i seriously felt the same way going in and still think it's really overrated, between everything on GAF, the talk in the FFXIV FC, it just made me not want to play it more) coloring his expectations from the start. he didn't hate it at all and anyone who thinks that is an idiot
his issue with it is just how overrated it is (i seriously felt the same way going in and still think it's really overrated, between everything on GAF, the talk in the FFXIV FC, it just made me not want to play it more) coloring his expectations from the start. he didn't hate it at all and anyone who thinks that is an idiot
Caught up on that podcast. Apart from the terrible audio (which made it hard to hear) that was really great. Great discussion, laughs, bumpain and they didn't talk-over each other much. The bachelor party stuff was great. I don't know if strip club standards are lower here but the last time I went to one the stripper kissed me and some other stuff... shit was righteous.
I laughed my fucking ass off when Pat called out Liam on his contrarian/constant devils advocate.
Got a few videos to catch up on sadly because I've been busy with human nonsense. From the uproar in here I'll need to watch that SMS ASAP. Really looking forward to these shitstorms as well. Glad the Dagonromga LP's are getting longer. Should be out the way soon.
Picked up the first volume of Vagabond because of here/woolie and the constant hype around it. Plus its not like Berserk is going to finish any time soon.
Watched One Punch Man and that was incrediblessed.
EDIT: One of the reasons I'm yet to start Undertale is because of the none-stop hype machine there is no way in hell it's going to live up to my expectations. So I'm going to wait a few months until the opinions equalize and I can get a good reading on it.
I laughed my fucking ass off when Pat called out Liam on his contrarian/constant devils advocate.
Got a few videos to catch up on sadly because I've been busy with human nonsense. From the uproar in here I'll need to watch that SMS ASAP. Really looking forward to these shitstorms as well. Glad the Dagonromga LP's are getting longer. Should be out the way soon.
Picked up the first volume of Vagabond because of here/woolie and the constant hype around it. Plus its not like Berserk is going to finish any time soon.
Watched One Punch Man and that was incrediblessed.
EDIT: One of the reasons I'm yet to start Undertale is because of the none-stop hype machine there is no way in hell it's going to live up to my expectations. So I'm going to wait a few months until the opinions equalize and I can get a good reading on it.
If you like books, I highly recommend reading Musashi, the book it was based on. I'm not a huge fan of the direction they took one of the main characters (Kojiro) in Vagabond.
DoktorEvil
Banned
Nova Bovington
Member
Yo, didn't think OPM could live up to the manga, but it's doing pretty damn great so far, IMO. Shit's tight. Also stop posting and go read Vagabond already. It's even tighterer.
skLaFarebear
Member
First episode of OPM was amazing. Fucking Madhouse killing it as (almost) usual.
E_Darkness
Member
Don't worry, Vagabond won't be finished any time soon either.
Well the story is. Which is more than you can say for Berserk.
skLaFarebear
Member
One day Guts will overcome his mortal enemy, Boatmaster Kenny.
Maybe because it's coop or the end of a long recording session, but man, the apathy of Pat during Obscure is flowing out of every orifice.
And for as much as people shit on Liam for being a devil's advocate, I feel like Pat enjoys it way more when he ends up being a contrarian. I don't think Liam derives much joy from it. I'd be annoyed in his position since everyone seems to jump down his throat constantly for it. All he can say is that it's what he truly thinks and that's it. I wonder how strongly Pat will come off with his Undertale talk next podcast. I hope they don't immediately shut him down even if shutting him down would be a bit funny. Also somethingsomething am I wrong, no, it's the children who are wrong.
It's really easy to get pessimistic about something when everyone everywhere is shoving it down your throat. I've yet to play Undertale and I regret not doing it sooner since all I see when I read the word Undertale anywhere is "filled with determination," or oh look, metacritic top PC game. Even Matt's jokey snide tweets about everything below Undertale on metacritic being garbage are a bit eyerolling. I'll get to the game eventually, but in the meantime, the overabundance of it can get annoying. Everyone shouting at you to play thing can easily be a deterrent since it just makes you associate the product with annoyance.
And for as much as people shit on Liam for being a devil's advocate, I feel like Pat enjoys it way more when he ends up being a contrarian. I don't think Liam derives much joy from it. I'd be annoyed in his position since everyone seems to jump down his throat constantly for it. All he can say is that it's what he truly thinks and that's it. I wonder how strongly Pat will come off with his Undertale talk next podcast. I hope they don't immediately shut him down even if shutting him down would be a bit funny. Also somethingsomething am I wrong, no, it's the children who are wrong.
It's really easy to get pessimistic about something when everyone everywhere is shoving it down your throat. I've yet to play Undertale and I regret not doing it sooner since all I see when I read the word Undertale anywhere is "filled with determination," or oh look, metacritic top PC game. Even Matt's jokey snide tweets about everything below Undertale on metacritic being garbage are a bit eyerolling. I'll get to the game eventually, but in the meantime, the overabundance of it can get annoying. Everyone shouting at you to play thing can easily be a deterrent since it just makes you associate the product with annoyance.
Yeah, the others usually more or less force Liam into the position of being devil's advocate by making reactionary/hyperbolic statements. To be fair half the time they're being facetious or just baiting him.
Also, yeah, Pat's shtick of giving up at even the slightest hint of a puzzle and proceeding to flail wildly at random for 20 minutes is getting a bit old, given that 99% of puzzles in games are basically just calmly looking at what's there and putting 1 and 2 together in the most obvious way.
Imperfected
Member
"You put the Quiet on top of the horse, and the dog on top of the Quiet." Liam, you know that's illegal, even in Quebec. Especially in Quebec.
DeadPhoenix
Member
"Damn these people who are enjoying this game I've never played more then I want them to and had nothing to do with its creation sure are ruining the game for me. When will they learn to not leave me out of the fun and only have as much as I have decided is acceptable?"
I mean, there is popular things I don't like and fandom's of those things I don't like, but not liking something because the fans are too loud or w/e sounds just dumb to me. I say hate the player, not the game(unless you do actually think the game is shit on its own merits of course). Otherwise it sounds like you are just hating on a game just to spite those other people, which I guess is par for the course on the internet...
MillionStabs
Banned
Kento is the most sinister member of the God Hand.
Tbh
when an fan audience get ferocious/rabid/feral and turns everything into meme-ry "and thou must like it"
it does actually make the original content less palatable to those yet to experience it
especially seeing as a lot of the unique experiences get spoiled by meme bullshit
I must admit am guilty of the meme-ing shit posting myself (and shilling) but I'm trying to tone it down now the game is well known and well spread
toby himself made a tweet about the topic
I can't blame him if he doesn't want Undertale to reach "have you heard about homestuck" levels of fandom bullshit.
I like Toby, he's a
cool dude
Shit, i'm doing it again.
But yeah, I kinda do agree. Although I think it will probably die down in about a few weeks, with maybe the "weirder" part of the fanbase *cough*/vg/*cough* continuing the tradition.
I've seen much more of the opposite side myself (although I don't frequent tumblr or reddit at all), seeing people who say they hate the game now or call it a "meme game".
Personally I recommend the game like i recommend my other favourites of all time (like SotC). First making sure it would be the type of game for said person and probably a little disclaimer first
And then stalk them until they finally launch the fucking thing
skLaFarebear
Member
That's about what im expecting whenever i play the game. People talk about the writing, music and the endings being great, but not much outside of that. Dan Ryckert said on the bombcast that the first couple of hours of the game are really dry as opposed to the rest of the experience.
Though hearing its pacifist system is basically a dumbed down version of the SMT negotiation system is kind of upsetting. Guess im going neutral/genocide whenever i get a chance to play.
Edit: Anyway, interested in hearing more about it on the podcast and a deeper discussion on the quality of the good/bad of the game.
Honestly, I wouldn't try going into it with the mentality of "How close is it going to be "RPG X" ". It's very much it's own thing in the context of the game.
It's absolutely nothing groundbreaking of course but it's still very fun, and you take into consideration all the elements of a fight make up for the personality of the monster, not just the path to mercy him (everything from flavour text to the attack patterns to a bunch of easter eggs). But it's true that if you don't care that much about story or characterisation and don't want to at least slightly willfully immerse yourself in it, it's not gonna do much. The game still kinda expects that you care about some of the characters, even in genocide
Easter eggs and the amount meta-writing in the game (or just it's ability to "play with you" as much as you play with it) is really pretty astounding, even for minor stuff and I can't think of a scenario that doesn't have it's own little things
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Who told you that? I'm not sure it's even possible to get any more dumbed down than that nonsense system.
DeadPhoenix
Member
To me that us just asshole being assholes, they ruin enough shit on the internet as is, why would I let them ruin my enjoyment of a video game? they won't be there when I'm playing it.
This I think is just dumb because I've never seen anything actually get as bad as people suggest it is, and the backlash becomes way more noticeable then and loud(and annoying) then the fanbase was in the first place.. Maybe I just don't hang out in these terrible parts of the internet where it happens(well... I do avoid tumblr like the fucking plague, but for other reasons).
skLaFarebear
Member
Pat's Twitter.
Though this could be the case of Pat being wrong as usual about SMT stuff again. I'll take it with a grain of salt.
It sounds pretty cool. I might have to push this higher up my backlog since its only about 5 hours long. Don't know how motivated I'll be to do more than one run through it, but its at least worth playing so I can actually have an informed discussion on it.
That would be it
consider yourself wise
skLaFarebear
Member
I have to assume its different when you're as famous as Pat where in every message is directed right at him, constantly pushing him to play it. And he's also surrounded by friends/coworkers who are doing an LP of it.
Phantasmal Repose
Member
It's more like a dumbed down version of P2's negotiation system. Each monster in Undertale requires a specific method to be able to mercy it. Every time you fight that monster the mercy method is the same. If Pat actually played through P2 he'd know that and not look like a dummy.
The writing includes the entirety of the experience, not just the ending.
It's not like the SMT negotiation system at all. I mean, at a basic level, your goal is to get your enemy to go away, but negotiation in SMT is fundamentally different in that it exists to supplement an existing fighting system, and is semi-randomized to keep battles from being 'figured out' entirely. Undertale's battle system is an extension of its' focus on puzzle and problem solving. Enemies exist to be solved, and your most basic input (using the FIGHT command) is the most straightforward and least dynamic way of solving them. It's figuring out the 'character' of an enemy and taking the appropriate choices in the right order. It's consistent, and every 'conversation' follows a logical chain of events, unlike SMT's negotiation.
It's anything but 'dumbed down' from SMT's, but I don't know how you'd qualify that because IMO SMT's negotiation mechanics are already very 'dumb' in the first place.
When you 'figure an enemy out' in Undertale, the solution never changes. Which can be boring after a certain point, but the random encounter rate is so low and there's enough variety in enemy types that it never really becomes too big a problem. It helps that the basic mechanic of combat - guiding your character around a box to avoid bullet hell patterns, is something I found really fun and creative for an RPG, and the game is never afraid to mix up its' own mechanics.
Just try to go in without any expectations set for yourself. Not what you read in a tweet, not some hyperbolic review saying best game of forever. Just play it and reach a conclusion in as big of a vacuum as you can.
skLaFarebear
Member
Ohhhhhh, that makes sense. But I assume the mercy is just letting them live and ending the battle instead of getting unique rewards/consequences for it based on happiness/fear/surprise/angry like in P2.
Phantasmal Repose
Member
Yeah, you let them live and you get gold as a reward. Doing certain Act commands can cause an enemies attack property or pattern to change, though.
skLaFarebear
Member
I could see this getting tedious if the game was long, but since its short and I have to assume has a decent variation in enemies, then its probably not bad.
Thanks for the breakdown! That makes a lot more sense.
And don't worry about the hype/expectations influencing me. The last thing I really care about is what other people think about certain games. I would never play or judge a game only based off the hype of other people.
Several enemies have multiple solutions, however you get a nice flavour text end game for each of the ones you "solve" or even just interact in a way that is beneficial/helpful/unique to them.
Liam and Matt actually managed to find their unique path good on them
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
It's got decent variation but more importantly, seeing an enemy more than twice is a rare occurence(some exceptions).
skLaFarebear
Member
That sounds nice. Well either way I bought the game and will play through it as soon as I get the chance. Especially since spoilers can probably ruin this game.
Pure_Phazon
Member
I really need to play Undertale, but I have no computer atm ;_;
In the meantime I'll continue to play Transformers because it's a goddamn blast, and I think I might like it more than Revengence
In the meantime I'll continue to play Transformers because it's a goddamn blast, and I think I might like it more than Revengence
if only it had an Armstrong level final boss though