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Sega 3D Classics Wave 2 |OT| October: 3D Sonic 2

N

Naked Snake

Member
Why did M2 decide to bring two Fantasy Zone games within the same wave? No other game received a sequel in the 3D Classics series in such a short time.
 
stuminus3

stuminus3

Member
Naked Snake said:
Why did M2 decide to bring two Fantasy Zone games within the same wave? No other game received a sequel in the 3D Classics series in such a short time.
Click to expand...
They didn't, the original plan was just to port Fantasy Zone 1 but they got the chance down the line to work on bringing 2 to the collection. The thing is M2's System-16 FZII isn't really like the other games in the remake series. I think it could even have stood on its own, separate from the 3D Classics line.

http://blogs.sega.com/2015/04/13/sega-3d-classics-3d-fantasy-zone-ii-interview-part-1/
 
N

Naked Snake

Member
stuminus3 said:
They didn't, the original plan was just to port Fantasy Zone 1 but they got the chance down the line to work on bringing 2 to the collection. The thing is M2's System-16 FZII isn't really like the other games in the remake series. I think it could even have stood on its own, separate from the 3D Classics line.

http://blogs.sega.com/2015/04/13/sega-3d-classics-3d-fantasy-zone-ii-interview-part-1/
Click to expand...

I've been meaning to read the interviews for FZ1 first, which I'm finally doing now. It's funny how I went from having zero interest in these games initially (I hadn't heard of them or seen them before) to slowly becoming more and more interested as I learn about the games' history (partucularly from Krejlooc's posts), then seeing the glowing impressions for FZII-DX in this thread, and now reading about more history and the development process from the interviews... I think I'm going to become a converted fan pretty soon :)
 
S

Splash Wave

Member
I have no experience with FZ whatsoever, but I'm *loving* FZ2. Can anyone offer general strategies for the game? Is there a certain buying ritual that generally works? The only thing I'm finding to be absolutely essential is increased movement speed; the weapons are so short-lived that I have a harder time spending money on them (even though I have tons).
 
D

Dragoon En Regalia

Member
Jimmy Stav said:
I have no experience with FZ whatsoever, but I'm *loving* FZ2. Can anyone offer general strategies for the game? Is there a certain buying ritual that generally works? The only thing I'm finding to be absolutely essential is increased movement speed; the weapons are so short-lived that I have a harder time spending money on them (even though I have tons).
Click to expand...
If you're new, stick to Bright sides of rounds, get a Jet Engine at the least, and make sure you start using Twin Bombs to destroy bases. You can adjust the bombs' trajectory based on which vector Opa-Opa's moving in (i.e. when rocketing towards a base, dropping bombs will shoot them roughly horizontal to the screen and faster than when flying downward). Conserve your money to save up for purchasing extra lives; this will matter even more when you start learning the Dark sides of rounds. These strategies all work on arcade settings, but they're just as effective after you've modified the settings.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
it warms my heart to see fz2dx finally getting the love it deserves. the game should totally be put up on psn/xbla. more people need to play it.
 
A

Ally of Justice

Member
I have enough for two of these. I've been aching to play them, but I hadn't have the chance. I'm eyeing Ecco because it sounds interesting and reminds me of E.V.O. for SNES. Also 3D Galaxy Force, but I'm not really sure about both of them.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
if you guys want even more fantasy zone greatness, play Super Fantasy Zone on the genesis. iirc it got a rerelease on the wii vc. it is basically fantasy zone 3. not as good as fantasy zone ii dx, but still damn great.
 
R

Refyref

Member
I'm liking FZ2DX more than 1 so far, although it's probably due to it being more accessible and colorful. Opa-Opa's unupgraded speed is terrible, though.
 
M

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Krejlooc said:
if you guys want even more fantasy zone greatness, play Super Fantasy Zone on the genesis. iirc it got a rerelease on the wii vc. it is basically fantasy zone 3. not as good as fantasy zone ii dx, but still damn great.
Click to expand...

Been on there since July 2008. Great game. I actually prefer 1 and Super to 2.

I really love the NES Tengen version of 1 as well.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
Krejlooc said:
if you guys want even more fantasy zone greatness, play Super Fantasy Zone on the genesis. iirc it got a rerelease on the wii vc. it is basically fantasy zone 3. not as good as fantasy zone ii dx, but still damn great.
Click to expand...

cheap to import (at least cart only) for genesis as well, and works fine on US systems too!
 
S

Slermy

Member
Krejlooc said:
if you guys want even more fantasy zone greatness, play Super Fantasy Zone on the genesis. iirc it got a rerelease on the wii vc. it is basically fantasy zone 3. not as good as fantasy zone ii dx, but still damn great.
Click to expand...

Wait, what? Fantasy Zone on the Genesis / Mega Drive was an entirely new entry!?! I had no idea.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
Slermy said:
Wait, what? Fantasy Zone on the Genesis / Mega Drive was an entirely new entry!?! I had no idea.
Click to expand...

Super_fantasy_zone.jpg


uPDp8VU.png


Zb8O2YX.png


LoGEzOG.gif
 
G

GenG3000

Member
Zonic said:
Actually, it's
the best ending. Same as good, but get the tear drop item & use it on Dark Opa-Opa while he's flashing after defeating him.
Click to expand...

I did that, but still gives me the good ending. I've seen ending A and C I think. At the end of the route chart there's a stage I haven't seen yet.

I was trying to follow a route where
Opa's face stands at neutral, neither happy or angry, but since the number of stages is 7, there is no way to split them evenly.
 
Z

Zonic

Gives all the fucks
GenG3000 said:
I did that, but still gives me the good ending. I've seen ending A and C I think. At the end of the route chart there's a stage I haven't seen yet.

I was trying to follow a route where
Opa's face stands at neutral, neither happy or angry, but since the number of stages is 7, there is no way to split them evenly.
Click to expand...
Oh, so you got the top & bottom endings & need the middle? Because there's no neutral ending it seems.

As for Ending B,
Just beat all the stages on the Dark versions, but don't use the tear.
 
N

Naked Snake

Member
This from the part 2 of the interview blew my mind:

Sega said:
NH: For me, the fact that it would be designed for the System-16 was really important, so it couldn’t just look like a System-16 game; it had to actually run on a System-16 Board.

When I first told the staff that we were going to make a new game for System-16, their reaction was, “Oh man, the boss is off his rocker again.” So they tried to get me to give up on the idea, saying that they looked into it, but the work area for System-16 was too small for current programming styles, and we wouldn’t be able to make the game fit. If we couldn’t solve this key issue, then it would be impossible. But I visited some hardware guys in the area to talk to them about it, and they said, “Oh yeah, we can add some memory on to the board there for you.” So I had them add some memory onto a System-16B board. So the team tried to kill it off that way, but now they actually had to follow through with it.
- (laughs)

NH: When I showed the staff this System-16 board with memory added to it, I said, “As I recall there weren’t any obstacles else other than the lack of memory… right?” All they could do was just grit their teeth. Then
I said, “Alright, since this is something we can actually put out, we’re going to do this, right?” “…Yes, sir.”
And thus we went on to make the System-16 remake. We made it so it would actually run on a System-16 board as long as it has memory added to it. It was the birth of the System-16C.

YO: The process basically involved you guys building a PC-based System-16 emulator, and then getting the game running on that, right?

NH: Yes, essentially, we made it on an emulator, but then we’d burn it to a System-16 EPROM and would playtest the game on the board itself.

16881030548_d6426c6e37.jpg

The System-16C board that currently lives at M2’s offices. The remake of The Tears of Opa-Opa can actually run on it.
Click to expand...

And after reading this:

Sega said:
YO: The biggest benefit of building the game from scratch is that we are able to put in more stereoscopic 3D effects than we have previously. Alright, Horii-san, “unleash the beast!” (laughs)

NH: Okay, so on the topic of putting 3D into the various objects, we’ve tried a lot of things up until this point. For example, we were able to get the enemy spawn bases to have “roundness” to them in Opa-Opa Bros, but that was done by layering just two objects on top of each other. This time around though, we’re able to display a large number of objects, so there’s no need to just settle for two layers. There’s a ton of them, up to seven layers even, and that makes things look really nice and curved. That’s what you get when you have virtual hardware that can display 2,048 individual pieces.

After all we’ve been through, being able to achieve the look we want without being limited by the number of in-game objects… Words cannot express the feeling.

YO: What makes this interesting compared to other 3DS games is that though this is 3DS, it doesn’t use polygons. It uses sprites, and they weren’t designed to be displayed in stereoscopic 3D in the first place. The same staff took 2D graphic art that was designed to run on the System-16 for the 2008 remake, and put those into 3D themselves. So considering that, this too is most certainly a “3D Remaster” title.

NH: The same staff basically disassembled all the objects that would need to be put into 3D. Starting with the background, they put objects in deep, in the front, then more in front, then all the way on top, all by hand. The result is just impressively smooth. It was just one person on our staff who stuck to it to get the work done. They were very set on getting a very good 3D implementation.

YO: Widescreen and 3D support really expand the playfield—to a much larger degree than even the other 3D Remaster Project titles.

NH: Opa-Opa Bros was really impressive, and 3D Shinobi III was another one we were really proud of, but 3D Fantasy Zone II really takes the cake. You could call it the most recent of our proud achievements.

- It’s not just that it looks 3D, but it looks really natural in 3D. That’s the difference. In previous games, you could tell that it’s in 3D, or that a lot of work went into the 3D support, but Fantasy Zone II is the real deal.

NH: It does seem like we crossed a certain threshold somewhere in the production process. It’s like we broke through to the other side. But nothing feels forced. It’s as if everything is as it should be. The people working on it really busted their butts to get it done, but for those enjoying the results, it seems as if a picture-perfect world is popping out at them in 3D.

- It’s like the difference between movies when they first started doing 3D, and movies these days. You don’t see things that seem forced—everything feels so natural. Your eyes don’t get tired.

YO: In the grand scheme of things, there really aren’t that many 2D games that have been enhanced with 3D support. But M2 has worked on a lot of these projects in a short amount of time, from 3D Space Harrier to the current title. I think 3D Fantasy Zone II is the best they’ve done so far. It is in the most literal sense a grand compilation of the best 3D techniques they’ve developed as they’ve worked on each of the projects.

- This might just be me, but I imagine the process by which you take 2D visuals and put them into 3D probably hasn’t changed all that much. But in optimization through object placement and the way things move, Fantasy Zone II has simply blown everything else out of the water with how everything looks in 3D. It’s like there were limits to what you could do before, but now you have the freedom to do more.

NH: When we slice 2D visuals into layers to make them 3D, that’s intertwined with the timing for the object’s animation. When we’re recreating an existing game we make sure we don’t change the original animation timing. But in this case, we made some slight adjustments. It’s not that we made changes just to make it 3D—we made detailed adjustments so things look better. I think a lot of small changes come together to result in such a breakthrough.

- It’s like a lot of puzzle pieces have come together to fit perfectly. Like a lot of amazing things have combined to create something and looks and plays in the most natural, normal-seeming way.

YO: I think that’s one way in which this goes beyond what we’ve done previously.

- It’s something that a person who has been taking 2D visuals and putting them into 3D would appreciate. At least, I’m guessing it is.

NH: Though the people who have been reading our interviews might be able to appreciate it as well.

- And I’m sure they get a kick out of it (laughs). It just feels like a lot of care and work has gone into every little detail. Everything feels like it is as it should be.

NH: There aren’t as many loose seams anymore, at least.

YO: 3D polygon-based characters of course look just fine on 3DS in stereoscopic 3D, but I hope that people feel this stuff seems just as natural as well.

NH: That’s all I’m looking for.

- I wouldn’t be surprised if it stops some people in their tracks.

NH: I think we’ve really pushed things pretty far when it comes to the challenge of taking 2D pixel art and getting that into 3D. And this is the grand compilation of that.

- Horii-san, you spoke previously about how there were no other challengers looking to do this sort of thing.

NH: There aren’t. Though I would love to see other people doing this stuff.

- With this, all will know the fearsomeness of 3D pixel art. The work you’ve put in can be seen all over the place, such as the easier-to-see bullets.

NH: When it was in development, I went and stood behind the designer working on it, and I just stopped in my tracks. The number of layers they split an object into, and the time and effort they put into trial and error to get things right are just astounding. And they do that over and over. I think the results of all that work really shine through.
There’s a big difference between doing everything can think of within the constraints of system processing power and doing anything you want without the processing restrictions. A lot has happened between our first title, Space Harrier, and now when it comes to taking a character and making it 3D. We have gotten a lot better. But sometimes, we’d try something and end up giving up because it would cause things not to run at 60fps. I really hope the people who make the 3DS hardware see these games and smile.
Click to expand...

I'm so SOLD! Buying eShop credit first thing in the morning tomorrow (shout out to SmokeMaxX in the community Buy/Sell/Trade thread, who sells US eShop card codes, very useful for people who imported a US 3DS and can't use their credit card on the eShop).

Nintendo Life posted their review of 3D Fantasy Zone II

Nintendo Life said:
medium.jpg


To summarise, 3D Fantasy Zone II is a wonderfully sublime shooter that works perfectly as a handheld title. Developer M2 performed wonders with the original PS2 remake, but here on 3DS the team has outdone itself. It's hard to see how even M2 can raise the bar in terms of retro-remakes, and certainly bodes well for upcoming releases.

As with Out Run, the Nintendo 3DS is now home to the best version of Fantasy Zone II and, in our opinion, the best Fantasy Zone game in the entire series. If you have even a passing interest in the genre, you should pick this one up straight away.

9/10
Click to expand...
 
G

GenG3000

Member
Zonic said:
Oh, so you got the top & bottom endings & need the middle? Because there's no neutral ending it seems.

As for Ending B,
Just beat all the stages on the Dark versions, but don't use the tear.
Click to expand...

Oh, so it was that. Ending B unlocked!

These series is fantastic. At first the whole shoot-the-bases thing may seem a bit underwhelming but it's only an excuse for you to experiment with the upgrade system and the shop. It's what actually gets you invested into the game and it's at
the boss rush at the final stage where everything comes together. It's a test to show if you have played well and spent your money wisely.
The art style, the graphics, the soundtrack, the mood, the deepest lore plot... it oozes 80s magic.

LinkLoopLand is an amazing time muncher. I predict this will be one of my top played digital games along with OutRun and AfterBurner 2.

I'm now looking into the Fantasy Zone Collection for PS2.
 
M

MrDoctor

Member
Man, the Fantasy Zone II bosses are tough. I had no trouble with them in the first game, but here they've been responsible for all my deaths.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
The endboss seems fucking impossible without a good speed boost - I spent a lot of money on lives so I went in to the last boss with about 7 lives, but that ended up not helping at all when I could only afford the 100 coin speed boost after dying a few times on it. So it was just a wash after that.

edit/ nvm killed him and
it wasn't the endboss
 
M

MaverickHunterAsh

Member
So if I kinda sorta didn't really enjoy 3D Fantasy Zone that much (blasphemy, I know), is there any chance of my liking 3D Fantasy Zone II W? Are there any appreciable differences or improvements between the two games? (Other than the apparently amazing 3D effects, based on that interview excerpt above?)
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
MaverickHunterAsh said:
So if I kinda sorta didn't really enjoy 3D Fantasy Zone that much (blasphemy, I know), is there any chance of my liking 3D Fantasy Zone II W? Are there any appreciable differences or improvements between the two games? (Other than the apparently amazing 3D effects, based on that interview excerpt above?)
Click to expand...
put me in the bin of folks not crazy about FZ1 but enamoured with FZ2. the game is just more fun to play.

I uploaded my playthrough of the bad ending. spoilers of course:
http://youtu.be/KnAm9JU186E
 
S

Starwolf_UK

Member
D

Dragoon En Regalia

Member
Let's not rag on FZ just because its sequel, made twenty years after fans had analyzed the original to hell and back, is a notable improvement. The 3D port of that looks really nice and plays well in general, though ergonomically it's not as good to play on a 3DS as the other releases.
 
Z

Zonic

Gives all the fucks
RedToad64 said:
For Link Loop Land how do you
unlock the left character? I have Evil Opa-Opa.
Click to expand...
I wanna say
get the best ending, i.e do all the B stages, then use the tear drop bomb while the final boss is flashing after you defeated it.
 
M

Miker

Member
Anybody have tips on getting better at Out Run? For harder turns, should I be braking or just letting off the gas? And is there any trick to switching gears besides being in high gear for straightaways and low gear for turns? Oh, and for the course select screen where you can go up/down for courses - is that just to show best times, or can you somehow select the course you start at?

General tips and stuff would be appreciated.
 
G

GenG3000

Member
Miker said:
Anybody have tips on getting better at Out Run? For harder turns, should I be braking or just letting off the gas? And is there any trick to switching gears besides being in high gear for straightaways and low gear for turns? Oh, and for the course select screen where you can go up/down for courses - is that just to show best times, or can you somehow select the course you start at?

General tips and stuff would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

For tight turns, you should let off the gas, and braking only if you are about to crash with an object at the side of the course.

There are several tricks with the gears. You have to master them.

One is the quick start. At the initial countdown, press the accel, then wait for the countdown to come to 1, and then let go the accel and press it again when the velocimeter is decreasing at the green segment for a much faster startup. You can also do this after a crash, but the sequence is much much shorter (basically press, let go, press again as the velocimeter decreases).

The other trick is the quick gear shift to avoid spinning and losing speed. Whenever you bump another vehicle, downshift and upshift quickly to stop the spin and keep your speed.

These tricks will save you a lot of time. The key is practice!
 
R

Raitaro

Member
GenG3000 said:
For tight turns, you should let off the gas, and braking only if you are about to crash with an object at the side of the course.

There are several tricks with the gears. You have to master them.

One is the quick start. At the initial countdown, press the accel, then wait for the countdown to come to 1, and then let go the accel and press it again when the velocimeter is decreasing at the green segment for a much faster startup. You can also do this after a crash, but the sequence is much much shorter (basically press, let go, press again as the velocimeter decreases).

The other trick is the quick gear shift to avoid spinning and losing speed. Whenever you bump another vehicle, downshift and upshift quickly to stop the spin and keep your speed.

These tricks will save you a lot of time. The key is practice!
Click to expand...

I never knew about these gear shifting / acceleration tricks either. Thanks for sharing!
 
M

Miker

Member
GenG3000 said:
For tight turns, you should let off the gas, and braking only if you are about to crash with an object at the side of the course.

There are several tricks with the gears. You have to master them.

One is the quick start. At the initial countdown, press the accel, then wait for the countdown to come to 1, and then let go the accel and press it again when the velocimeter is decreasing at the green segment for a much faster startup. You can also do this after a crash, but the sequence is much much shorter (basically press, let go, press again as the velocimeter decreases).

The other trick is the quick gear shift to avoid spinning and losing speed. Whenever you bump another vehicle, downshift and upshift quickly to stop the spin and keep your speed.

These tricks will save you a lot of time. The key is practice!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips!

Also, I wish OutRun 2006: Coast 2 Coast was still available on Steam :(
 
Z

Zonic

Gives all the fucks
3D Sonic 3D. You know it'll happen.

Honestly, at this point, after 3D Sonic 3 & Knuckles, I think I'll be content. I got Gunstar Heroes (& Sonic 2, assuming they add Hidden Palace Zone), plus Wave 2 was rather great for the most part. Anything else probably would be 3rd party.

MAAYYYBEEE Ristar, but that's it.
 
Z

Zonic

Gives all the fucks
duckroll said:
Are we getting Thunderblade next week or is it the week after?
Click to expand...
I would assume next week. The 14th is more in the middle of the month, which seems to be when these have been getting released. For comparison:

January 15: After Burner II
February 12: Fantasy Zone
March 12: Out Run
April 16: Fantasy Zone II

So basically, the 2nd or 3rd (if the month starts on or close to before Thursday) Thurs. of the month.

Therefore, if I HAD to guess:

July 16: Streets of Rage 2
August 13: Gunstar Heroes
September 17: Sonic 2
 
K

Khaz

Member
You know, I may pass on Sonic 2 because I probably have it on every other consoles already, but I know my OCD will just make me buy it.
 
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