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[Phoenix]

Astronomers at the SETI@Home project have spoken up to dismiss suggestions that the project intercepted signals from an alien civilisation.

Reports spread across the net yesterday and today after New Scientist said that an "interesting" signal had been picked up by the huge radio telescope in Arecibo, Puerto Rico.

The magazine quoted Dan Wertheimer, the chief scientist on the SETI@Home project, as saying that the signal was the most interesting yet identified by the project. He remarked: "We're not jumping up and down, but we are continuing to observe it."

Despite the otherwise sceptical tone of the article, his comments sparked speculation that we had actually made contact with another world. Sadly, this does not appear to be the case, and Wertheimer told ther BBC today that the idea of contact was "all hype and noise". "We have nothing that is unusual. It's all out of proportion," he said.

So the armies of the world can stand down - it was all a false alarm. There are no aliens trying to contact or destroy us, and we can all relax again. Phew.

The signal in question is dubbed SHGb02+14a, and has a frequency of about 1420 megahertz. This is also one of the main absorption frequencies of hydrogen. It is also the alien hunters' favourite place to go looking for deliberate signals from extra terrestrial civilisations.

The signal has only been observed on three occasions for about a minute each time. This is not really long enough for it to be analysed properly, scientists say, which means there are plenty of possible explanations for it.

Even discounting the suggestion that it is evidence of some natural phenomenon, scientists cannot rule out ground based interference, or the possibility that someone has hacked the SETI@Home program. ®

Source


I have no idea how the validate that the signal isn't from an alien civilization, but apparently they will at least continue to observe it. Don't know how they would know that they've picked up an alien signal to begin with, because it assumes that we know what would be in a signal that they would be sending out, that its a deliberate attempt to contact someone, and that we would know how to unpack/translate the signal into something we can understand. We can barely understand the language of dogs and dolphins so I have no faith that we would be able to understand a species that grew up in an entirely different environment.

 

[Dan]

I really don't want to read about the possibility of SETI@home being hacked, especially if they can't tell after looking at the data for a bit. That just defeats the purpose of the whole project.

 

[Phoenix]

Yeah, and if it is a hack; the person who did it has l33t skills because they would have to simultaneously hack multiple distributed machines simultaneously. Although with the various holes being drilled into windows via malware and its kin - I guess that isn't all that impossible.

 

[DarienA]

Aliens have landed... they've already taken over and they are spread false information... I'VE SEEN PUPPETMASTERS DAMMIT!

 

[Drensch]

It's pretty obvious the SETI guys got a visit from company people and were told to shut up.

 

[Bregor]

The idea that the positive result is due to someone hacking seti@home is silly. Seti@home is only meant to help find possible alien signals, it's certain that they check every possible positive using the original data and more sophisticated algorithms.

 

[Dan]

The idea that the positive result is due to someone hacking seti@home is silly. Seti@home is only meant to help find possible alien signals, it's certain that they check every possible positive using the original data and more sophisticated algorithms.

One would hope so, but that's not what the article suggests. The article flatout states that SETI@home "cannot rule out ... the possibility that someone has hacked the SETI@Home program," that is, after it had been checked out beyond the SETI@home system.

Of course, this article appears to be written just a couple days after the 'signal' was found, but still...

 

[Chittagong]

There is an article in the newest Nature talking about the inefficiency of interplanetary communication using transmissions. There were some good comparisons on how much energy it would drain just to submit some signals to the closest planets - the energy required was enormous.

Instead, the scientists suggest a targeted "letter in a bottle" type of an approach as a lot more effective and efficient way - sending out tangible stuff that can be touched, seen, heard, smelled, sensed, instead of sending out singals that require the receiving civilization to have special equipment and to monitor 24/7 all possible frequencies in case something is transmitted.

 

[maharg]

There is an article in the newest Nature talking about the inefficiency of interplanetary communication using transmissions. There were some good comparisons on how much energy it would drain just to submit some signals to the closest planets - the energy required was enormous.

Instead, the scientists suggest a targeted "letter in a bottle" type of an approach as a lot more effective and efficient way - sending out tangible stuff that can be touched, seen, heard, smelled, sensed, instead of sending out singals that require the receiving civilization to have special equipment and to monitor 24/7 all possible frequencies in case something is transmitted.

I don't see how this is any less problematic. For one thing, it will be slower. For another, a microscopic difference in initial launch angle could have it missing the target solar system by lightyears. We have enough trouble tracking the large rocks that float around our own solar system, let alone a small alien launch vehicle that's passing directly through.

Seems to me all that does is trade the energy cost for a material cost.

 

[Phoenix]

When we try to explore the universe, how do we do it - we send out probes and let them do the work and tell us what they discover. I think its infinitely more likely that someone's probes will come across us that it is that we will pick up some random collection of alien farts and be able to know that we just heard something from ET.

 

[Bregor]

The trouble with probes is that you have to send it to a specific solar system, which means that if you are trying to contact another species you have to already know they are there- and how else are you going to do that except by radio transmissions? Radio beams can be aimed at entire regions of the sky. Interstellar travel (even unmanned) is incredibly expensive and slow - nobody is going to send a probe to all possible life bearing solar systems.

Probes might be more efficient if one knows where another species is, and wish to communicate a lot of information to them, but radio waves are basically the only way we will discover them.

 

[RiZ III]

I want to believe damn it.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Yeah, I think they're going to be the ones who find us first.

 

[tedtropy]

SETI is merely a ploy for George Lucas to get free computational power to generate CG scene replacements for his 20 upcoming iterations of Star Wars recreations.

 

[sc0la]

Interstellar travel (even unmanned) is incredibly expensive and slow - nobody is going to send a probe to all possible life bearing solar systems.

You assume too much.

a) that the species has currency. or at the very least their resources are as limited as ours.
b) that they don't have a vastly more sophisticated understanding of science than we do
c) that they don't care about sending messages.

Now, we won't go sending hundreds of probes anytime soon. But that doesn't mean we haven't, we have already sent out recordings, and informational etchings about us out into space in satellites and probes.

Our species isn't to big on the sending of messages because quite frankly we are still to egotistical (on a personal level). We wan't to receive a signal because we have not yet reached a point where we find value in starting a one way conversation. If and when our species develops a sense that we need to move out of here, and that our races future and not our personal futures are of paramount importance will be when we start venturing out into and sending messages into space.

 

[maharg]

You assume too much.

a) that the species has currency. or at the very least their resources are as limited as ours.
b) that they don't have a vastly more sophisticated understanding of science than we do
c) that they don't care about sending messages.

All of these things apply equally to either method. I also think it's a bit on the optimistic side to assume that the rules of economics are going to be the first thing to go -- for us or for an alien civilization. We know that scarcity is largely the REASON we exist as intelligent beings today. While there's no gaurantee that this will apply to alien civilizations, you have to take a leap of faith somewhere.

But that's a side track. All these arguments are nil. Aliens that care about getting a message to us (broadcast or otherwise) will find a means to do it. There is no reason to favor a physical approach over an electronic one, since they both have economic issues. Also, if they have a vastly more sophisticated understanding of science than we do, then *all bets are off*. How are we to know, before we've reached that point, what is easier for them to do?

 

[sc0la]

All of these things apply equally to either method. I also think it's a bit on the optimistic side to assume that the rules of economics are going to be the first thing to go -- for us or for an alien civilization. We know that scarcity is largely the REASON we exist as intelligent beings today. While there's no gaurantee that this will apply to alien civilizations, you have to take a leap of faith somewhere.

No no I wasn't trying to say that they would have no economics just that we shouldn't assume that they are of sufficient value to be a factor against sending out messages of any fashion.

But that's a side track. All these arguments are nil. Aliens that care about getting a message to us (broadcast or otherwise) will find a means to do it. There is no reason to favor a physical approach over an electronic one, since they both have economic issues. Also, if they have a vastly more sophisticated understanding of science than we do, then *all bets are off*. How are we to know, before we've reached that point, what is easier for them to do?

I was trying to convey this, but I muddled it up

 

[Phoenix]

The trouble with probes is that you have to send it to a specific solar system, which means that if you are trying to contact another species you have to already know they are there- and how else are you going to do that except by radio transmissions? Radio beams can be aimed at entire regions of the sky. Interstellar travel (even unmanned) is incredibly expensive and slow - nobody is going to send a probe to all possible life bearing solar systems.

Probes might be more efficient if one knows where another species is, and wish to communicate a lot of information to them, but radio waves are basically the only way we will discover them.

I don't think that anyone within the depths of space is trying to send us a signal. If we find something I doubt seriously that its someone TRYING to send a signal to US specifically. The next thing is that you assume that the probe is intentionally trying to find YOU. We have probes spreading out from our solar system trying to relay us information as we try to understand the universe - not find ET. I think it is more likely that we would find someone's probe that was gathering information about the universe or looking for life, etc.

If you just look at our own plans/theories for exploration (and we're noobs at it) what you find is people building probes that have the ability to build other probes that go out in other directions. As such you start getting exponential increase in probability to find out information about the universe and find other life. The 'sit at home' approach just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me for a species that is trying to explore the universe.

As such I think its more likely that an exploring species interested in exploring the universe (and finding extra terrestrial life is just a subset of that) will be broadcasting information around and if we hear anything it will be THAT that we hear.

 

[Bregor]

Interstellar travel requires enormous amounts of energy unless you are willing to wait millions of years for your probe to reach it's destination, and I don't think that any society plans on that kind of basis. There are at least 100 billion stars in the Milky Way Galaxy, I find it difficult to believe that any species would send probes to even 1% of those stars. No matter how advanced your technology, you have limits on energy production, and wasting it on enormous interstellar exploration projects to mostly uninteresting systems isn't going to happen. They will send a probe to a system if they think something interesting is there. That means that there is either an unusual stellar phenomena present (in which case the chance of life is pretty low), or they already suspect that intelligent life is there.

 

[gofreak]

One would hope so, but that's not what the article suggests. The article flatout states that SETI@home "cannot rule out ... the possibility that someone has hacked the SETI@Home program," that is, after it had been checked out beyond the SETI@home system.

Of course, this article appears to be written just a couple days after the 'signal' was found, but still...

In reading about how Seti@Home works, they say they have a number of algorithms to detect "cheats". Also, the data packets are sent to multiple computers, so if your packet is showing something that the others aren't, they can figure it out that way. Even if you do hack all the other packets aswell, when they come across a "positive", they scan the part of the sky from where it originated, retrieve the data "fresh", and then analyse it with their own computers in berkley, free from your contamination. Only after all that would you start seeing reports like this..even then, they still haven't necessarily found anything (as seems to have been the case here). Furthermore, if a real alien signal was found, only after it had been verified multiple times, and independently by various different institutes around the world as being artificial and not of terristrial origin, would the formal procedure for informing everybody about it be invoked. At that stage they bring in mathematicians, linguists etc. to start trying to figure out what the signal contains.

 

[Deku Tree]

And here I was hoping that it was my workunit that got it done.

 

[Dan]

In reading about how Seti@Home works, they say they have a number of algorithms to detect "cheats". Also, the data packets are sent to multiple computers, so if your packet is showing something that the others aren't, they can figure it out that way. Even if you do hack all the other packets aswell, when they come across a "positive", they scan the part of the sky from where it originated, retrieve the data "fresh", and then analyse it with their own computers in berkley, free from your contamination. Only after all that would you start seeing reports like this..even then, they still haven't necessarily found anything (as seems to have been the case here). Furthermore, if a real alien signal was found, only after it had been verified multiple times, and independently by various different institutes around the world as being artificial and not of terristrial origin, would the formal procedure for informing everybody about it be invoked. At that stage they bring in mathematicians, linguists etc. to start trying to figure out what the signal contains.

There's a problem with this. SETI@home is still analyzing data from a year ago. My program is currently working on a workunit from November 2003. If it somehow turns up a positive, SETI can't really test it against current data from that position. You can't assume that the signal would be sent for a full year. Current data is anything but guaranteed to reveal anything about data from the same position 10 months ago.

I'm aware of how their system supposedly works, and all I can say is that this article explicitly says that SETI@home can't rule out hacking. It's not that hard to figure out, we can all read, right?

 

[Phoenix]

Interstellar travel requires enormous amounts of energy unless you are willing to wait millions of years for your probe to reach it's destination,

The universe is full of energy sources - the one that we know how to best exploit being the solar sail and the one which we want to exploit being matter/antimatter reaction. Yelling into the vastness of space hoping for someone to hear you is beyond stupid because if someone DOES hear you, your entire species could be long dead before the response arrives.

"Hey!"

A few thousand years later...

"What's up? How are you, we're so glad to reach someone out there"

A few thousand years later...

"The species you were trying to reach - US, is extinct. If you feel you reached this recording in error, please broadcast and wait a few thousand years again"


Sorry, that's even less compelling.

and I don't think that any society plans on that kind of basis. There are at least 100 billion stars in the Milky Way Galaxy, I find it difficult to believe that any species would send probes to even 1% of those stars.

We're sending probes to lifeless uninteresting nearby planets all the time. When we get the ability to send probes to other lifeless uninteresting planets in other solar systems, you think we won't do it?

No matter how advanced your technology, you have limits on energy production, and wasting it on enormous interstellar exploration projects to mostly uninteresting systems isn't going to happen. They will send a probe to a system if they think something interesting is there. That means that there is either an unusual stellar phenomena present (in which case the chance of life is pretty low), or they already suspect that intelligent life is there.

Well given that humanity doesn't follow that profile, I will assume that other species aren't as disinterested in exploring the universe. With the odds of winning the lottery almost infinitely more likely than contacting and holding a conversation with an alien species - I would be more prone to expect us to find alien technology in the void of space, long before we find aliens.

 

[Dan]

The universe is full of energy sources - the one that we know how to best exploit being the solar sail and the one which we want to exploit being matter/antimatter reaction. Yelling into the vastness of space hoping for someone to hear you is beyond stupid because if someone DOES hear you, your entire species could be long dead before the response arrives.

Even if we discovered a way to send transmissions or even travel at speeds nearing the speed of light, it'd still take dozens and dozens of years for a message to reach its destination, a close destination at that, and the same time for a reply to return. If the interval between transmission and a reply's return were 80-100 years, that's still a massive amount of time relative to our civilization's development. Just look at where we've gone in the past century. So, at what point is it not futile or useless to communicate with aliens, even to a known source, while accepting the fact that those who sent the transmission surely won't be the ones to receive it? There will always be a pretty long delay, unless we discover FTL communication or that habitable worlds with aliens are closer than we could currently expect.

I think that makes sense...

 

[Phoenix]

Perhaps you meant that as a reply to Bregor because we're saying the same thing

 

[Dan]

Hmm... I suppose. I guess I'm just not quite sure how self-replicating probes really solves much, or any physical message/transport system for that matter. We might discover some things a lot faster, and maybe even some habitated planets, but it doesn't solve the communication bit at all. So... yeah, I dunno. None of it would even remotely have short-term results, maybe not even within normal human lifespans. So no matter what, you're waiting a long, long time.

 

[Phoenix]

Indeed. And that's why I'm speculating that you're more likely to find someone's probes out there. Not trying to communicate with you - I think that's another humanity arrogance issue that assumes that someone is desperately looking for US, and would broadcast something that we would understand, it instead just exploring the universe and sending back the results. I think its far more likely that we'd run across that or communication from that.

I recall one of the first attempts to debunk this being another civilization was that the signal wasn't correcting for what appeared to be a 'short cycle' which some people showed could be coming from an object (like a satellite) orbitting a small body like an asteroid, comet, etc. If so (and I don't have a stong opinion either way) it is possible that we could have picked up someone's probe examining something in space, broadcasting information on it, and then potentially moving on through the universe.

We're not that important, we need to get over that and not assume that a signal in space is meant for us as the recipient. The universe is full of noise (like if you put a packet sniffer on an internet router)... information on top of information filling your queue.... none of it intended for you. Once you accept that and start looking at the seemingly random bits and bytes floating past you - you can start to see that there is a signal in the noise... and the noise is lots of signals.

 

[maharg]

I don't see why you think anyone thinks aliens are desperately trying to contact US in particular. I don't think it's at all unlikely that at some future point in human technological development, we won't start broadcasting some kind of signal as a beacon. As you pointed out earlier, we did in fact already send out at least one probe intended specifically to carry information to someone who might intercept it. If that doesn't indicate that someday we'll try to use energy to do the same thing (probably targetting projects similar to our own SETI, if only as a baseline assumption), I don't know what would convince you.

It's not really arrogant to assume aliens will be somewhat like us. It's just the only productive line of thought we're capable of.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't see why you think anyone thinks aliens are desperately trying to contact US in particular.

Because all of our assumptions, all of the stated 'debunkings', and all of the methodologies which we follow are all based upon someone wanting to contact us. Suppose we were to have the ability to sit a SETI receiver 100 light years away from earth - but underwater so the signal was distorted as all hell, do you think we'd find it? Look at the criteria for what is considered a viable signal.... it must come from a part of the sky where there are stars (because that's where we look - assuming that the signal would be terrestrial, because that's what we'd do), the signal has to be at a certain frequency - because that's what we'd do if we were trying to get someone's attention, the signal has to be clean and consistent with no variances - i.e. its a beacon signal... because of course everyone in the universe wants other people to find them, the signal will be decomposable into some repeating mathematical pattern (because that's what we'd do if we were communicating with another species... to establish that the signal isn't noise), etc. I could go on and on about some of the assumptions that have been made with SETI and that other scientists have brought up. In short - unless the signal is the 'ideal signal that we expect' we'll never hear it.

I don't think it's at all unlikely that at some future point in human technological development, we won't start broadcasting some kind of signal as a beacon. As you pointed out earlier, we did in fact already send out at least one probe intended specifically to carry information to someone who might intercept it. If that doesn't indicate that someday we'll try to use energy to do the same thing (probably targetting projects similar to our own SETI, if only as a baseline assumption), I don't know what would convince you.

Which do you think you would have a better chance of finding - a child crying in a New York subway at rush hour, or a bunch of trash blowing around.

It's not really arrogant to assume aliens will be somewhat like us. It's just the only productive line of thought we're capable of.

Yes - its actually very arrogant. In all likelihood our species as it exists is unique in the universe considering the enormouse number of evolutionary conditions that took us from single cell organisms to what we are today. Any one event along the evolutionary chain and we'd be something else - or not at all. I think its more useful to approach this from the perspective of 'okay suppose you aren't human and you aren't looking for me, how would I find you and know its you'. That is the gist of the problem. Its like a TOwer of Babel communication problem - how do I know I'm not hearing you if I don't know what you could be saying.... unless of course you're specifically trying to talk to me.

You've said yourself that you'd expect that mankind would someday turn the porch light on and send out a beacon of its own. Okay - so how do you send out a signal over the vastness of space that some other life would see, understand, and be able to formulate a response that you yourself would know that you've received?


This is one of those things we'll just have to agree to disagree on because at this stage in our development I really don't think we're yet smart enough about the universe to be able to truly 'listen' to the universe and know what we're hearing.