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[dammitmattt]

:lol Pretty much. I don't think I would move into downtown B'ham if someone gave me a house. Probably try to trade it on Craigslist for a lawn mower to take care of the grass on my mansion's yard.

2005 Murder Rate per 100k Population

1. Compton, Calif. 67.1
2. Gary, Ind. 58.0
3. Birmingham, Ala. 44.3

It's said when Flint, Detroit, Baltimore, Trenton, D.C., and more are safer. But according to some, I should live there since we are in an "energy/food/resource" crisis. What a great place to raise my kids in a few years!!!

mre,

I'm building a house in McCalla, so I'm getting closer to your neck of the woods, against my better judgment and sanity :/

 

[Tarazet]

The big difference is the size. Our house sat on a lot that was less than a quarter of an acre (actually less than a fifth, from looking at public records online). Start adding rooms and you start expanding the footprint necessary for the house. Most subdivisions built in the past two decades have houses that sit on an acre of land or more. At that size you see suburban developments that are impossible to service by mass transit because of the issues which arise.

The area I live in mostly has lot sizes between 2500-5000 square feet.. if you want an acre, you're talking multiple millions and a very long, hazardous commute.

 

[mre]

The big difference is the size. Our house sat on a lot that was less than a quarter of an acre (actually less than a fifth, from looking at public records online). Start adding rooms and you start expanding the footprint necessary for the house. Most subdivisions built in the past two decades have houses that sit on an acre of land or more. At that size you see suburban developments that are impossible to service by mass transit because of the issues which arise.

I really challenge the validity of this statement.

Suburban sprawl can be a challenge to mass transit, but it's not insurmountable. If it is a suburb of a significant urban center then the suburb could be serviced by a "park and ride" satellite station.

 

[dammitmattt]

The big difference is the size. Our house sat on a lot that was less than a quarter of an acre (actually less than a fifth, from looking at public records online). Start adding rooms and you start expanding the footprint necessary for the house. Most subdivisions built in the past two decades have houses that sit on an acre of land or more. At that size you see suburban developments that are impossible to service by mass transit because of the issues which arise.

As someone who has been home-shopping for the past few years, I can tell you that you are extremely wrong. Builders want to fit as many houses as possible into subdivisions so people have less land than ever and are closer together than ever. I'm building a house on a corner lot with 11,000 sq feet (average non-corner lot is 8,000 sq ft), which is less than 1/4 of an acre, and it's the largest plot of land I saw for any new developments in my price range. You get a lot more land with houses built in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, but houses today are built on top of each other. Looking at suburbs in places like Houston (where I was this past weekend), big houses are less than 10 feet apart on either side.

The only houses I see on acres of land are either in the middle of nowhere, or they are estates (aka mansions). You're way off-base here.

 

[mre]

2005 Murder Rate per 100k Population

1. Compton, Calif. 67.1
2. Gary, Ind. 58.0
3. Birmingham, Ala. 44.3

It's said when Flint, Detroit, Baltimore, Trenton, D.C., and more are safer. But according to some, I should live there since we are in an "energy/food/resource" crisis. What a great place to raise my kids in a few years!!!

mre,

I'm building a house in McCalla, so I'm getting closer to your neck of the woods, against my better judgment and sanity :/

Jeez, I had no clue that Birmingham was that far up there. It really boggles the mind.

We looked at McCalla when we moved here, but, really, the commute to Tuscaloosa would have been too much. We ended up in Moundville, and are extremely thankful to have been able to make it with one car. God bless our little Focus.

Soon you will be unable to resist the allure of the Crimson Tide and we'll convert you.

 

[border]

How about the Vino? Approve or disapprove?

Anything's a step above that cutesy little red one. The Stella isn't even that bad when you take off all those chrome attachments that make it look like it's owned by Pee-Wee Herman. It's a manual transmission though -- I dunno why you'd want to deal with that.

I tend to prefer the scooters that have a higher/larger rear section, but at the end of the day I'd probably just settle for anything cheap that shows up on Craigslist and can hit 50-60mph.

My main problem is that I'm mostly on the highway, where a scooter is not gonna cut it. Any local/neighborhood driving tends to be errands that require me to have a large storage compartment (laundry, groceries, etc). So until I get a job with a low-speed commute I don't really have much need for one.

using a scooter/moped is way out of the question here. Thats asking to get run down by a drunk driver.

No moreso than driving a motorcycle or regular car, I'd think. Most of the time you'd want to use a scooter (morning and afternoon commutes, weekend errands), there aren't going to be that many drunks on the road. I probably wouldn't want to drive one at night.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

The big difference is the size. Our house sat on a lot that was less than a quarter of an acre (actually less than a fifth, from looking at public records online). Start adding rooms and you start expanding the footprint necessary for the house. Most subdivisions built in the past two decades have houses that sit on an acre of land or more. At that size you see suburban developments that are impossible to service by mass transit because of the issues which arise.

I don't know where you live, but none of the McMansions that I see are built on anything near an acre of land. The houses in most suburban developments are packed as tight as possible to get the most houses out of the maybe 40 acres of farm land the developer bought. The real problem is the amount of "preserved land" between developments.

 

[dammitmattt]

The area I live in mostly has lot sizes between 2500-5000 square feet.. if you want an acre, you're talking multiple millions and a very long, hazardous commute.

The sizes here are about twice that size, but that's still less than 1/4 of an acre, and I live in Alabama, where houses and land are fairly inexpensive. I'm not sure where this mythical land is that he speaks of, but I sure want to move there!!!

 

[Nerevar]

I really challenge the validity of this statement.

Suburban sprawl can be a challenge to mass transit, but it's not insurmountable. If it is a suburb of a significant urban center then the suburb could be serviced by a "park and ride" satellite station.

I can only speak to the Washington, DC metro area (and urban Boston/Brookline, but I somehow think that isn't really relevant to this discussion) that I know of. From that perspective a comparison of the "inner suburbs" of places like Arlington, Bethesda, or Silver Spring (which are compact and well-serviced by mass transit) with the "outer suburbs" in greater Fairfax or Manassas and the difference is striking.

I assume for the most part this discussion will now devolve into anecdotal evidence that contradicts eachother.

 

[Neo C.]

so some people want some space and they are stupid?

Everyone wants more space, but your model of living is just unresponsibly energy-inefficient. If you can deal with rising oil prices, then it's ok. Though I think the great majority will rethink their habits.

As we can see in Europe, some countries like Germany is actually profiting by the rising oil costs, because there's now a huge demand for energy-efficient machine or machine parts. Now it's a good time to invest in energy-efficient technology, the profit is finally there.

 

[Karakand]

So when do the oil companies ask for bail outs corporate welfare?

And when do they get it in the name of "economic stability"?

 

[Cuu]

Am I missing something, or is hydrogen fuel cell car just another way to say electric car? I see a bunch of stuff on that site about H2 and O2, but I don't get where the energy comes from.

The way I understand it.. in simple terms (correct me if I'm wrong)... An anode breaks apart an atom, and then there is a membrane that doesn't allow electrons though, only protons. The electrons have to be re-routed through something else to get to the other side... (electricity = movement of electrons). So, yes, it creates electricity. But an electric car would plug into your house, and a hybrid car uses friction from you using your brakes to create electricity. (mostly?).

The problem now is that Hydrogen doesn't exist in nature in mass quantities. So, it's going to take energy to make energy in this case. Last I heard, the price of hydrogen was comparable to $100/barrel. A while back, $100 a barrel was unthinkable... now, it may be economical.

--

It's good to see some decline in gas usage, but any lowering of the price would bring many people back to their cars. It's going to be a long game to ween Americans off their gasoline.

 

[Innotech]

No moreso than driving a motorcycle or regular car, I'd think. Most of the time you'd want to use a scooter (morning and afternoon commutes, weekend errands), there aren't going to be that many drunks on the road. I probably wouldn't want to drive one at night.

this is Louisiana were talking about here. People are always partying and the drunk driving rate is astronomical.

 

[gkryhewy]

I don't know where you live, but none of the McMansions that I see are built on anything near an acre of land. The houses in most suburban developments are packed as tight as possible to get the most houses out of the maybe 40 acres of farm land the developer bought. The real problem is the amount of "preserved land" between developments.

Gross density for a site (i.e. units per acre) is set by a municipality's zoning, as are front, side, and rear yard setbacks. Many suburban and exurban municipalities here (suburban philadelphia) do in fact have 1 acre (or more) minimum lot sizes for their most common residential zones.

And "preserved land" between developments isn't a problem if it's really preserved. Planning programs like Transfers of Development Rights (TDR) are effective ways of concentrating the same number of units on a smaller footprint. This on one hand makes the development less land consumptive and more transit supportive, while at the same time permanently preserving the environmental (i.e. habitat, stormwater management) and scenic benefits of open space.

If you look at suburban developments in Europe, you'll see built-up areas surrounded by greenbelts.

 

[layzie1989]

for some reason i thought the title meant this

 

[PrivateWHudson]

2005 Murder Rate per 100k Population

1. Compton, Calif. 67.1
2. Gary, Ind. 58.0
3. Birmingham, Ala. 44.3

It's said when Flint, Detroit, Baltimore, Trenton, D.C., and more are safer. But according to some, I should live there since we are in an "energy/food/resource" crisis. What a great place to raise my kids in a few years!!!

mre,

I'm building a house in McCalla, so I'm getting closer to your neck of the woods, against my better judgment and sanity :/

Maybe crime is the real problem. Inner city housing here is either too expensive in a good neighborhood, or crime ridden in an affordable neighborhood. Is safety as much of a problem in high density European cities?

 

[Flynn]

Nakeisha Easterwood of Smyrna, Georgia, said with gas prices on the rise, she sometimes catches rides with friends, and doesn't drive into town more than once a day. "It's crazy," she said.

The quote is great.

Crazy? No. I'd say its entirely sensible.

 

[SpeedingUptoStop]

using a scooter/moped is way out of the question here. Thats asking to get run down by a drunk driver.

or not be able to transport anything but yourself. good luck moving to that apartment in the city, bub!

 

[Innotech]

Everyone wants more space, but your model of living is just unresponsibly energy-inefficient. If you can deal with rising oil prices, then it's ok. Though I think the great majority will rethink their habits.

As we can see in Europe, some countries like Germany is actually profiting by the rising oil costs, because there's now a huge demand for energy-efficient machine or machine parts. Now it's a good time to invest in energy-efficient technology, the profit is finally there.

MY model of living? How do you know how Im living personally? This house isnt gigantic. Its more spacious, but it isnt exactly sprawling. Its a 70s era house, so it isnt very energy efficient to begin with. Its not like my aunts 450k house where she has a huge backyard with a pool, a large stylish patio, 4 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms and a huge living room and kitchen. and its just her and 2 kids there. Granted she is divorced but she doesnt remotely need all that space.

 

[Socreges]

great news... will it last?

is there any pervasive thinking in the U.S. to build more livable cities? like, reduce urban sprawl? improve public transit? anything? or will this drop not get any more dramatic?

I'm just trollin'. You guys are quick to anger though

so you deliberately say something stupid and then accuse "you guys" of "quick to anger" because one person said "the fuck?" *boggle*

 

[MickeyKnox]

WTF is with the Yuros and US gas threads, please keep whatever pearls of wisdom you have for us "big dumb Americans" to yourselves until you can understand the large and rather significant differences between your infastructure which is individually much, much smaller (not to mention more efficient due to that little thing that happened over there in the 40s) and ours.

 

[mre]

this is Louisiana were talking about here. People are always partying and the drunk driving rate is astronomical.

:lol

So true.

 

[Phobophile]

NW burbs eh? I grew up in the Elgin/Schaumburg area my whole life. Good times for the most part.

I work in Elgin and live in West Dundee. This place blows.

 

[gkryhewy]

great news... will it last?

is there any pervasive thinking in the U.S. to build more livable cities? like, reduce urban sprawl? improve public transit? anything? or will this drop not get any more dramatic?

Certainly that's the current school of thought in the American city/town/regional planning establishment, but it all comes down to the preferences of local citizens and officials.

Anecdotally, desire for new transit services is exploding, which opens a dialog on the types of places where they can and can't work effectively.

WTF is with the Yuros and US gas threads, please keep whatever pearls of wisdom you have for us "big dumb Americans" to yourselves until you can understand the large and rather significant differences between your infastructure which is individually much, much smaller (not to mention more efficient due to that little thing that happened over there in the 40s) and ours.

So we should, what, throw up our hands? American planning has to become more European. We have no choice. End of story.

 

[Evlar]

great news... will it last?

is there any pervasive thinking in the U.S. to build more livable cities? like, reduce urban sprawl? improve public transit? anything? or will this drop not get any more dramatic?

Not yet, it's too soon. People are still in shock or various stages of denial. And of course there were already places in the country with progressive ideas about urban planning; not quite all Americans live in the sprawling wasteland.

 

[Flynn]

or not be able to transport anything but yourself. good luck moving to that apartment in the city, bub!

U-haul.

 

[Wellington]

great news... will it last?

is there any pervasive thinking in the U.S. to build more livable cities? like, reduce urban sprawl? improve public transit? anything? or will this drop not get any more dramatic?


so you deliberately say something stupid and then accuse "you guys" of "quick to anger" because one person said "the fuck?" *boggle*

Follow any of the other threads much?

 

[captive]

I really dont blame people from not wanting to live in crowded areas. Especially when there is still a ton of uninhabited space all over the place. Especially down here in the south. And since when is a larger house considered a waste of space if you still make efficient usage of it? USA is not europe and its better off that way.

These Europeans are just mad cause they dont have the luxury of having space and yards and showers that arent 2x2x7.

 

[Socreges]

Follow any of the other threads much?

no, but i'll suppose they must be fairly contentious since you'd go so far as to troll this one. frankly i just think you made a really poor point, but retroactively disguised it as trolling.

 

[MoxManiac]

I love it when people suggest moving closer to work. Guess what, the cost of rent grows exponentially the closer to where I work. I wouldn't save shit!

 

[Souldriver]

WTF is with the Yuros and US gas threads, please keep whatever pearls of wisdom you have for us "big dumb Americans" to yourselves until you can understand the large and rather significant differences between your infastructure which is individually much, much smaller (not to mention more efficient due to that little thing that happened over there in the 40s) and ours.

Not all Europeans in this thread are pointing the finger though. I just gave some suggestions that could help people being less hit by gas prices, but I fully understand the transport infrastructure in America is not comparable to the one in Europe. But at least we can hope the recent crisis starts a trend, with more money spend on public transport, driving lanes for bikes and mopeds and more small and economic cars being sold.

Edit: oh, and more control on DUI, going by Innotechs post.

 

[Innotech]

mass transit overhaul would be impossible in Lafayette. It is absolutely not designed for this and barely has a grid structure except for right downtown. It is 100% essential to own a car or at least a motorcycle. I guess you could walk, but walking down a 15 mile stretch of road to get to work in 95 degree heat with 100% humidity and heat index of 105 isnt very pleasant.

 

[lastendconductor]

The quote is great.

Crazy? No. I'd say its entirely sensible.

OMG MORE THAN 1 PERSON PER CAR!! CATS AND DOGS, LIVING TOGETHER!!

 

[Neo C.]

MY model of living? How do you know how Im living personally?

By "your", I didn't mean you alone rather the american model of suburban sprawl. Though we have the same problem too (people buying houses outside the city), I think we'll see some structural changes in the whole world.

 

[speculawyer]

Not yet, it's too soon. People are still in shock or various stages of denial.

I think that is an accurate description of much of the planet right now with the sharply increased oil prices. There are going to be a lot of changes in the next few years and decades. We've been building our economies on a finite resource.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

Gross density for a site (i.e. units per acre) is set by a municipality's zoning, as are front, side, and rear yard setbacks. Many suburban and exurban municipalities here (suburban philadelphia) do in fact have 1 acre (or more) minimum lot sizes for their most common residential zones.

And "preserved land" between developments isn't a problem if it's really preserved. Planning programs like Transfers of Development Rights (TDR) are effective ways of concentrating the same number of units on a smaller footprint. This on one hand makes the development less land consumptive and more transit supportive, while at the same time permanently preserving the environmental (i.e. habitat, stormwater management) and scenic benefits of open space.

If you look at suburban developments in Europe, you'll see built-up areas surrounded by greenbelts.

Kind of funny that you mention suburban philadelphia. I was thinking exactly of that same area when I said that most houses in new developments were not even close to 1 acre. Check out this listings $300+...Most are around the 0.25 acre area until you start getting to the $500 range with some of them even being under 1 acre:

http://www.realtor.com/search/searc...=1&sid=9ff8db475ae24621960c30e3ff3008bd&pg=11

 

[Flo_Evans]

Thank god my city is somewhat progressive with our light rail. Its funny though when they started it there was tons of resistance in the suburbs cause they didn't want "city folk" coming out to rob them in their nice suburbs. Now they can't lay the tracks fast enough :lol

 

[Innotech]

I love it when people suggest moving closer to work. Guess what, the cost of rent grows exponentially the closer to where I work. I wouldn't save shit!

I actually did move substantially closer to work. and everything else. A trip to the mall now takes less than 3 minutes, and I have access to all major stores and places of interest here within 10 minutes drive, including stoplight time. My parents still live at the very edge of town though and have to drive at least 20 minutes to get to this area. the city isnt really big, traffic is just that bad.

 

[dammitmattt]

So we should, what, throw up our hands? American planning has to become more European. We have no choice. End of story.

So are we supposed to modify our geography at the same time?

 

[border]

or not be able to transport anything but yourself. good luck moving to that apartment in the city, bub!

I don't think anyone is suggesting that people replace their cars with scooters. Just that it's a good idea grab a scooter and use it when and where applicable.

Even if you got rid of your car it's not that hard to rent a truck to transport your things (which you'd have to do anyway, assuming you own furniture).

 

[dammitmattt]

By "your", I didn't mean you alone rather the american model of suburban sprawl. Though we have the same problem too (people buying houses outside the city), I think we'll see some structural changes in the whole world.

It's not a "problem." Why can't some of you understand that some people just don't want to live in the city. Some people like to have space, peace, and quiet. Some people want to be able to see the stars at night and listen to the natural sounds of nature instead of traffic and sirens.

 

[Innotech]

I also highly doubt states like Louisiana, Michigan and Mississippi even have the funds to improve mass transit. Especially michigan.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

The way I understand it.. in simple terms (correct me if I'm wrong)... An anode breaks apart an atom, and then there is a membrane that doesn't allow electrons though, only protons. The electrons have to be re-routed through something else to get to the other side... (electricity = movement of electrons). So, yes, it creates electricity. But an electric car would plug into your house, and a hybrid car uses friction from you using your brakes to create electricity. (mostly?).

The problem now is that Hydrogen doesn't exist in nature in mass quantities. So, it's going to take energy to make energy in this case. Last I heard, the price of hydrogen was comparable to $100/barrel. A while back, $100 a barrel was unthinkable... now, it may be economical.

--

It's good to see some decline in gas usage, but any lowering of the price would bring many people back to their cars. It's going to be a long game to ween Americans off their gasoline.

Isn't that just replacing a gas hybrid with another non-renewable fuel hybrid? $100 a barrel just sounds like another way to rape us on a whole new infrastructure that eventually will need to be fixed.

 

[Evlar]

So are we supposed to modify our geography at the same time?

Don't know if you've noticed but Europe is a continent. It's not as big as the US but it doesn't quite fit on the back of a postage stamp, either.

 

[speculawyer]

WTF is with the Yuros and US gas threads, please keep whatever pearls of wisdom you have for us "big dumb Americans" to yourselves until you can understand the large and rather significant differences between your infastructure which is individually much, much smaller (not to mention more efficient due to that little thing that happened over there in the 40s) and ours.

That is only small part of the difference. The big difference is that they wisely taxed an imported and finite resource at a high level to encourage efficient usage of it.

We are reaping the whirlwind that we sowed in the USA.

 

[avaya]

That is only small part of the difference. The big difference is that they wisely taxed an imported and finite resource at a high level to encourage efficient usage of it.

We are reaping the whirlwind that we sowed in the USA.

.

 

[Innotech]

It's not a "problem." Why can't some of you understand that some people just don't want to live in the city. Some people like to have space, peace, and quiet. Some people want to be able to see the stars at night and listen to the natural sounds of nature instead of traffic and sirens.

case in point, my parents.
Myself I dont have a problem with living in urban centers as long as its reasonably safe. Its kind of exciting to me. But Im also young and single. families probably prefer the suburbs.
This is also pickup truck land, so renting moving vans isnt as common. Im really not sure if Louisiana could exist without oil. I really doubt it.

 

[dammitmattt]

Don't know if you've noticed but Europe is a continent. It's not as big as the US but it doesn't quite fit on the back of a postage stamp, either.

And Europe is also not a country. We're talking about individual policies of countries that are significant smaller than the US.

 

[Wellington]

no, but i'll suppose they must be fairly contentious since you'd go so far as to troll this one. frankly i just think you made a really poor point, but retroactively disguised it as trolling.

Ok.

Now, if you wanted me to make a serious point it'd be the same one from last week's topic on nearly the same issue; whether we drive more, less or whatever, the spiking prices of goods and services will be more of an issue to US households than the price of a gallon of gas. Nothing I do will decrease those prices.

 

[Neo C.]

So are we supposed to modify our geography at the same time?

Actually I think the USA is perfect for more rails. On the other hand, Switzerland has way too much mountains and one would think it's impossible to build an efficient rail system. Now we have one of the most frequent rail system in the world.

Geography isn't a problem.