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[nynt9]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/shut-up-about-harvard/

It’s college admissions season, which means it’s time once again for the annual flood of stories that badly misrepresent what higher education looks like for most American students — and skew the public debate over everything from student debt to the purpose of college in the process.

Here’s how the national media usually depicts the admissions process: High school seniors spend months visiting colleges; writing essays; wrangling letters of recommendation; and practicing, taking and retaking an alphabet soup of ACTs, SATs and AP exams. Then the really hard part: months of nervously waiting to find out if they are among the lucky few (fewer every year, we’re told!) with the right blend of academic achievement, extracurricular involvement and an odds-defying personal story to gain admission to their favored university.

Here’s the reality: Most students never have to write a college entrance essay, pad a résumé or sweet-talk a potential letter-writer. Nor are most, as The Atlantic put it Monday, “obsessively checking their mailboxes” awaiting acceptance decisions. (Never mind that for most schools, those decisions now arrive online.) According to data from the Department of Education,1 more than three-quarters of U.S. undergraduates2 attend colleges that accept at least half their applicants; just 4 percent attend schools that accept 25 percent or less, and hardly any — well under 1 percent — attend schools like Harvard and Yale that accept less than 10 percent.

Media misconceptions don’t end with admission. “College,” in the mainstream media, seems to mean people in their late teens and early 20s living in dorms, going to parties, studying English (or maybe pre-med) and emerging four years later with a degree and an unpaid internship. But that image, never truly representative, is increasingly disconnected from reality. Nearly half of all college students attend community colleges3; among those at four-year schools, nearly a quarter attend part time and about the same share are 25 or older. In total, less than a third of U.S. undergraduates are “traditional” students in the sense that they are full-time, degree-seeking students at primarily residential four-year colleges.4

Students keep taking that risk for a reason: A college degree remains the most likely path to a decent-paying job. They aren’t studying literary theory or philosophy; the most popular undergraduate majors in recent years have been business and health-related fields such as nursing.

Yet the public debate over whether college is “worth it,” and the related conversation over how to make higher education more affordable, too often focuses on issues that are far removed from the lives of most students: administrative salaries, runaway construction costs, the value of the humanities. Lost in those discussions are the challenges that affect far more students: How to design college schedules to accommodate students who work, as more than half of students do9; how to make sure students keep their credits when they transfer, as more than a third of students do at least once; and, of course, how to make college affordable not just for the few who attend Harvard but for the many who attend regional public universities and community colleges.

 

[Skellig Gra]

This is all news to me. I had to write an essay and waited nervously. I didn't go to Harvard or any "elite" school.

 

[nynt9]

This is all news to me. I had to write an essay and waited nervously. I didn't go to Harvard or any "elite" school.

It's almost like "most" doesn't mean "all"

 

[Skellig Gra]

It's almost like "most" doesn't mean "all"

I'm not being critical or anything. Literally everyone I knew went through the whole essay/extra curricular process. So I'm genuinely surprised that most college students never go through it. I guess it makes sense with the rise in people going to community college. Do you not have to do the whole essay thing if you go for a bachelors after an associates degree?

 

[noquarter]

I'm not being critical or anything. Literally everyone I knew went through the whole essay/extra curricular process. So I'm genuinely surprised that most college students never go through it. I guess it makes sense with the rise in people going to community college. Do you not have to do the whole essay thing if you go for a bachelors after an associates degree?

Going to the University of Colorado Colorado Springs all I had to do was submit an application. Same was true if the other two universities I applied to. There was no resume either. This was straight out of high school.

Going to community college was the same, just pay the application fees and have the test score and you are good.

 

[Gully State]

I'm not being critical or anything. Literally everyone I knew went through the whole essay/extra curricular process. So I'm genuinely surprised that most college students never go through it. I guess it makes sense with the rise in people going to community college. Do you not have to do the whole essay thing if you go for a bachelors after an associates degree?

I'm pretty sure you do (most people that go to community college probably don't transfer to a 4 year institution).

 

[RockTurtle]

for my college application experience, I literally just showed up with my mom and her tax info and 2 hours later I already had a schedule set

 

[Dr. Feel Good]

Depends on where you grow up. 98% of my high school went to college. I was bottom 20% of my class of 650 with a 3.0 GPA. We had people going to Harvard, Stanford, Yale, etc.

I guess I don't understand the point of this article? There's all types of college profiles. Some people go to community college? Great we knew that. Doesn't negate the fact that universities are largely overpriced, offer little real world preparation, and unload massive amounts of graduates into unemployment

 

[rrs]

my reality: just yawn during the act, get a 29 on it then go to community college because I'm not paying for a 4 year college for 4 years and I'll have lecture hall classes turned into more reasonable sizes. Then I get a degree and I'm off to a 4 year college to finish up.

 

[Drakeon]

I'm not being critical or anything. Literally everyone I knew went through the whole essay/extra curricular process. So I'm genuinely surprised that most college students never go through it. I guess it makes sense with the rise in people going to community college. Do you not have to do the whole essay thing if you go for a bachelors after an associates degree?

I never went through the essay process. I went to community college and then when I was finished with my credits there I transferred to the local University. Just an application, no essay or anything.

It's simply a much better/cheaper option to go to Community College for your general education stuff and then hit University for your major. Unless you really want that student debt to go up.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Going to the University of Colorado Colorado Springs all I had to do was submit an application. Same was true if the other two universities I applied to. There was no resume either. This was straight out of high school.

Going to community college was the same, just pay the application fees and have the test score and you are good.

I never went through the essay process. I went to community college and then when I was finished with my credits there I transferred to the local University. Just an application, no essay or anything.

That is really interesting. I knew people who went to all kinds of different schools, private/public, elite/non elite but never was it just a straight application.

 

[God Dayumm]

I always thought all of it was romanticization to make you feel bad about your more humble choices of education.

 

[BigDug13]

I never went through the essay process. I went to community college and then when I was finished with my credits there I transferred to the local University. Just an application, no essay or anything.

It's simply a much better/cheaper option to go to Community College for your general education stuff and then hit University for your major. Unless you really want that student debt to go up.

Same here. Online application for transfer where I plugged in some classes and GPAs. No essay. No hoops. (Mesa College to SDSU)

 

[Future]

Even if you eventually attend the easy to get in colleges, it doesn't mean you don't write essays and attempt admission at other schools.

 

[AlphaDump]

one of the better routes is to cover general ed in community college, and then transfer based on gpa to dive into your focus. I know quite a few that saved tens of thousands dollars doing this.


i will say, any online degree or something from Devry is usually placed at the bottom unless they have really impressive experience.

 

[Drakeon]

one of the better routes is to cover general ed in community college, and then transfer based on gpa to dive into your focus. I know quite a few that saved tens of thousands dollars doing this.


i will say, any online degree or something from Devry is usually placed at the bottom unless they have really impressive experience.

Exactly, community colleges are there to save you money. It's foolish to not take advantage of them especially when you know all their credits are good at the university you plan to transfer to.

 

[noquarter]

I'm pretty sure you do (most people that go to community college probably don't transfer to a 4 year institution).

I think it depends on the school. I've known people who started at community college because they didn't have the grades or ACT/SAT scores to go to a university and if they were successful at community college the requirements were easier. My brother did this, did a year of cc before reapplying and was let in with the cc grades.

That is really interesting. I knew people who went to all kinds of different schools, private/public, elite/non elite but never was it just a straight application.

I did have to take the ACT and score above a 19 or something. My friend only scored like a 17 or 18 and they made him write an essay or something to get in. He was still accepted, but did have the extra hoops to jump through.

Depends on where you grow up. 98% of my high school went to college. I was bottom 20% of my class of 650 with a 3.0 GPA. We had people going to Harvard, Stanford, Yale, etc.

I guess I don't understand the point of this article? There's all types of college profiles. Some people go to community college? Great we knew that. Doesn't negate the fact that universities are largely overpriced, offer little real world preparation, and unload massive amounts of graduates into unemployment

Yeah, really not sure what the purpose of the article really is. All colleges have been increasing in price and the article even acknowledges that many students still have debt, just not as high as from an Ivy League school.

"Is college worth it" is still a question that should be asked no matter what school you are planning on going to.

 

[faridmon]

So apparently We, here in UK, had harder time getting into universities than you lot across the ocean. We had to go through UCAS, Which meant Personal Statement, Letter of Recommendation and Extracurricular activities was a must, and then most of us didn't even get the universities they wanted and I had to settle for my 5th choice.

 

[Toa TAK]

I never went through the essay process. I went to community college and then when I was finished with my credits there I transferred to the local University. Just an application, no essay or anything.

It's simply a much better/cheaper option to go to Community College for your general education stuff and then hit University for your major. Unless you really want that student debt to go up.

This is how I'm currently doing it.

Plus nabbing an Associates helps I'm sure. I'm thinking that's what ultimately got me in.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

So apparently We, here in UK, had harder time getting into universities than you lot across the ocean. We had to go through UCAS, Which meant Personal Statement, Letter of Recommendation and Extracurricular activities was a must, and then most of us didn't even get the universities they wanted and I had to settle for my 5th choice.

We had to do all that stuff, but whether anybody at the universities ever read that supplementary material is another matter. I suspect it was only of interest to the most prestigious universities, and they'd probably only use it as a prompt sheet in an interview.

 

[WaffleTaco]

I've never had to write any sort of writing application when I transferred from a community college to university. Also the only bad part of attending community college is losing the dorm experience and the fact that you are going to have far less connections when you transfer. Hell I know almost no one at my university, due to working weeknights and driving home on weekends (1.5 hour drive). Suffice to say...I really hope I make connections in Law School after I obtain my Bachelor's in Poli Sci.

So apparently We, here in UK, had harder time getting into universities than you lot across the ocean. We had to go through UCAS, Which meant Personal Statement, Letter of Recommendation and Extracurricular activities was a must, and then most of us didn't even get the universities they wanted and I had to settle for my 5th choice.

Extracurricular's are such bullshit and should not even been a requirement for anything.

 

[Gully State]

I think it depends on the school. I've known people who started at community college because they didn't have the grades or ACT/SAT scores to go to a university and if they were successful at community college the requirements were easier. My brother did this, did a year of cc before reapplying and was let in with the cc grades..

Maybe I'm pessimistic about this but I always got the impression that most people who start JC with the intent to transfer to a 4 year institution end up not doing it (not saying that it's not a good path - I recommend it TBH- SMC here in LA has a great program with UCLA for guaranteed admissions..just guessing that most people can't hit that target GPA ).

 

[outunderthestars]

I have degrees from Clemson and Appalachian State. I didn't write essays or really sorry about getting into either. Just applied for third degree at NC State and am not really worried about that one as well.

I can't imagine any of those Universities giving a shit about what I do in my spare time.

 

[SecretMoblin]

Extracurricular's are such bullshit and should not even been a requirement for anything.

They were a big part of the application/essay/interview process for me, and I didn't even go to a swanky school.


I'm actually not to broken up about doing essays, other than the fact that it's probably easier on the schools to not have to "read" so many submissions or at least record/save them. The amount of folks in college who can't write was astounding to me, and it's one of the most important skills for getting a job after graduation.

 

[faridmon]

Extracurricular's are such bullshit and should not even been a requirement for anything.

Tell me about it.

I had to freaking do so many things outside of my studies just to even have a chance to get into an OK University (at the time, I found out later that my Uni was shite)

 

[meijiko]

I only had to fill out an application (my fee was even waived because I was there on a school trip) and my grades and SAT scores were high enough for them to give me a full tuition scholarship. I even got a rent stipend. Didn't write an essay, didn't do much in the way of extracurricular stuff, and I didn't even fill out a separate application for the scholarship.

This was University of Texas at Dallas in 2007, though, and they've grown a lot bigger since then, so I doubt they do it entirely the same anymore.

 

[Nabbis]

So apparently We, here in UK, had harder time getting into universities than you lot across the ocean. We had to go through UCAS, Which meant Personal Statement, Letter of Recommendation and Extracurricular activities was a must, and then most of us didn't even get the universities they wanted and I had to settle for my 5th choice.

I only needed to take a exam for my specific field, the best scores get in. Finland.

It's a neat system in a way that eliminates most of the bias and bullshit.

 

[Gully State]

I had to submit 2 letters of rec, write a personal statement and extracurriculars. This was in 1999. I shudder to think what kids today have to do and what my kids will need to do down the line.

 

[Maxim726X]

I never went through the essay process. I went to community college and then when I was finished with my credits there I transferred to the local University. Just an application, no essay or anything.

It's simply a much better/cheaper option to go to Community College for your general education stuff and then hit University for your major. Unless you really want that student debt to go up.

As someone that is tutoring people about how to get into my profession- This is the exact advice I give them.

You pay much less, will likely have great grades (assuming you didn't slack off) which will help you get into a good public University, where these grades will give you a great starting point when you apply to any program after you finish your BA/BS. It's clearly the best way to go.

 

[entremet]

I've never had to write any sort of writing application when I transferred from a community college to university. Also the only bad part of attending community college is losing the dorm experience and the fact that you are going to have far less connections when you transfer. Hell I know almost no one at my university, due to working weeknights and driving home on weekends (1.5 hour drive). Suffice to say...I really hope I make connections in Law School after I obtain my Bachelor's in Poli Sci.



Extracurricular's are such bullshit and should not even been a requirement for anything.

The reason they're considered is because colleges want an active student body. Who will write in their newspapers, run the clubs, etc.

That goes into another discussion, such as what is the purpose for higher ed, but that's another topic.

 

[TomServo]

As someone that is tutoring people about how to get into my profession- This is the exact advice I give them.

Just make sure that the credits actually transfer into the program you intend to complete your bachelors in.

Georgia Tech took a massive dump on my community college dual enrollment credits for engineering core / prereq classes. I got a grand total of three elective hours for macroeconomics. It did make for some solid grade padding - their physics courses, for example, were only marginally more difficult than the CC physics classes I had taken a year or two before - but I still had to take the courses and pay the $$$.

 

[Africanus]

I'll give my two cents as one waiting tomorrow on my last 5 college decisions (Harvard, Yale, Upenn, Columbia, Princeton)

I'm the student they are talking of. I had to do all the aforementioned in this piece. Multiple essays (sometimes for one school. Actually most of the time), interviews, testing, more testing, extracurricular sheets, letters of rec, etc. It's quite the load! For me though, it's because those schools with Financial Aid would be much cheaper than my state school (especially considering the budget crisis, it's almost free). This is a nice article, very enlightening.

 

[Maxim726X]

Just make sure that the credits actually transfer into the program you intend to complete your bachelors in.

Georgia Tech took a massive dump on my community college dual enrollment credits for engineering core / prereq classes. I got a grand total of three elective hours for macroeconomics. It did make for some solid grade padding - their physics courses, for example, were only marginally more difficult than the CC physics classes I had taken a year or two before - but I still had to take the courses and pay the $$$.

Damn, that's dirty. And honestly something I never really considered... The local community college credits usually painlessly transfer to the local Uni.

I'll be sure to let them know that.

I'll give my two cents as one waiting tomorrow on my last 5 college decisions (Harvard, Yale, Upenn, Columbia, Princeton)

I'm the student they are talking of. I had to do all the aforementioned in this piece. Multiple essays (sometimes for one school. Actually most of the time), interviews, testing, more testing, extracurricular sheets etc. It's quite the load! For me though, it's because those schools with Financial Aid would be cheaper than my state school (especially considering the budget crisis). This is a nice article, very enlightening.

Damn, how many schools did you apply to??

 

[Gully State]

Just make sure that the credits actually transfer into the program you intend to complete your bachelors in.
.

I would look for JC's that have a program with affiliated Universities. For example the JC at my hometown had contracts where if you took certain classes and maintained a GPA of like 3.6, you were guaranteed admissions into UC Berkeley (I dunno if it exists anymore)...I know Santa Monica City College has the same thing with UCLA right now (it's also why you see a ton of foreign kids move to LA just to attend SMC).

 

[Africanus]

Damn, how many schools did you apply to??

13
UIC, UIUC, SLU, Northwestern, UChicago, UMich, Emory-Oxford (Two colleges that converge to one after 2 years), Howard and the aforementioned 5.
Fee waivers are a beautiful thing. I'm chasing the financial aid and scholarships.

 

[TomServo]

Damn, that's dirty. And honestly something I never really considered... The local community college credits usually painlessly transfer to the local Uni.

I'll be sure to let them know that.

I'm going off in the weeds, but I have to share this story.

So GT says they won't give me any credit for my DE physics courses because the CC didn't teach them as "calculus-based".

So my first day of Particle Dynamics at GT, the prof comes out of the gate with a chalkboard full of calculus. I'm thinking, "wow, this is some serious shit." 10 minutes later... KE = (1/2)mv^2. Fuck me, I knew that. So I throw up my hand and ask him, in front a few hundred people, if we're expected to know the calculus behind the equation. His response? "Dear God no, just remember the final equation."

Thus began a year and 15 quarter hours of expensive GPA padding.

I would look for JC's that have a program with affiliated Universities.

In GT's defense, even in the late 90's they had a web page that would show what classes would transfer from just about any CC in the nation. That said, it's not like I had much choice in what CC my high school did dual enrollment with.

 

[TomServo]

Double post.

 

[Your Entertainer]

As someone with a younger sibling applying and friends with younger siblings applying, the whole admissions process is a crapshoot. Some of them are fantastic students. Friend's younger bro is the sole valedictorian of his class, near perfect ACT/SAT subjects, tons of ECs (varsity sport, class president, vested community service, lead in school play, musical instruments, honor societies and summer academies etc) and a well-liked, normal, well-adjusted kid - and still didn't get into many of the "top" schools. But then you hear stories of local kids with much worse grades, less ECs, etc getting into top places, and it just blows your mind. I also think back to that story a few years ago of that guy getting into all the ivies, and lol'ing at his "amazing" qualifications (he was like 20-something in his own class).

There's so much that goes into these admissions, and I feel that ultimately much more qualified candidates can get passed up due to many reasons. The advice I always give is not get too invested in one school, or never think you're a sure-thing for any big-name school. Just too much involved (and yes, some of it is BS, some of it is luck). Also, depending on your field, a top school may or may not be worth it depending on the financial aid you get. Prestige matters, but as to how much it's tough to say.

 

[Maxim726X]

13
UIC, UIUC, SLU, Northwestern, UChicago, UMich, Emory-Oxford (Two colleges that converge to one after 2 years), Howard and the aforementioned 5.
Fee waivers are a beautiful thing. I'm chasing the financial aid and scholarships.

Good for you man. Wish you the best. You can't go wrong with an education from any of the programs you applied to.

I'm going off in the weeds, but I have to share this story.

So GT says they won't give me any credit for my DE physics courses because the CC didn't teach them as "calculus-based".

So my first day of Particle Dynamics at GT, the prof comes out of the gate with a chalkboard full of calculus. I'm thinking, "wow, this is some serious shit." 10 minutes later... KE = (1/2)mv^2. Fuck me, I knew that. So I throw up my hand and ask him, in front a few hundred people, if we're expected to know the calculus behind the equation. His response? "Dear God no, just remember the final equation."

Thus began a year and 15 quarter hours of expensive GPA padding.

Oh, the admin has no idea what the content of the courses are in either program... They're just trying to find any reason to deny transferring the credits. It's wrong, and it shouldn't be allowed. One of the litany of issues facing higher education today.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I had to submit 2 letters of rec, write a personal statement and extracurriculars. This was in 1999. I shudder to think what kids today have to do and what my kids will need to do down the line.

I don't remember having to do any of the bolded, just filled out an application. This was for various UCs and CSUs back in 1996, and for the UC application I think I filled out one form and checked a couple boxes to indicate which campuses I was interested in.

Of course, that was 20 years ago so I may be forgetting a lot.

 

[Zapages]

In 2004... I had to write essays, get letters of recommendations, and waited for the acceptance/rejection letter in the mail...

I guess 12 years change a lot of things...

 

[diffusionx]

I guess I don't understand the point of this article? There's all types of college profiles. Some people go to community college? Great we knew that. Doesn't negate the fact that universities are largely overpriced, offer little real world preparation, and unload massive amounts of graduates into unemployment

The point of this article is simply stated.

Even out of the relative minority of people that go to college in the US, even less have the "typical" college experience (big state school, dorm life, etc etc). And most talk in this country is geared towards the typical experience.

The experience of a kid going to Ohio State and a kid going to a CUNY couldn't be more different, but the discussion is always centered around the former.

 

[Glass Shark]

So what you're telling me is that movies and TV shows exaggerate a relatively mundane process for dramatic effect?

Well, I never.

 

[ugaboga232]

College admissions were crazy 5 years ago but med school applications are just as bad if not worse (at least its a more focused application whereas college is a lot of luck in what opportunities you get). To be fair I applied to the absurd colleges and med schools so I only have my self to blame.

 

[backflip10019]

I had to submit 2 letters of rec, write a personal statement and extracurriculars. This was in 1999. I shudder to think what kids today have to do and what my kids will need to do down the line.

Yep, I did all of this as well in 2005, and my brothers did as well in 2009 and 2010. I don't really think the process has changed all that much for four-year colleges.

 

[Your Entertainer]

College admissions were crazy 5 years ago but med school applications are just as bad if not worse (at least its a more focused application whereas college is a lot of luck in what opportunities you get). To be fair I applied to the absurd colleges and med schools so I only have my self to blame.

Yes - med school admissions are insane. The increase in quality of applicants even from the time I applied to when I graduated was nuts.

 

[kirby_fox]

Been about 10 years now since I applied for college. Had to go through the whole process of finding someone to write a recommendation letter (last minute too, because I had the date wrong), writing reasons why I should be accepted, having to take the ACT and SAT (I don't even remember my scores now). Difference is that since I was so high up in rank of my graduating class, I had no worries about getting accepted anywhere near here.

Too bad that 2 years in the economy collapsed and my degree that was slightly worth something, became pretty much worthless by the time I graduated.

 

[Gully State]

I don't remember having to do any of the bolded, just filled out an application. This was for various UCs and CSUs back in 1996, and for the UC application I think I filled out one form and checked a couple boxes to indicate which campuses I was interested in.

Of course, that was 20 years ago so I may be forgetting a lot.

Depends on the UC, they asked for it separately. I only remember because I never really talked to teachers my last two years and was a class clown my first two...so it was a very awkward conversation to have with teachers.

 

[SRG01]

Just make sure that the credits actually transfer into the program you intend to complete your bachelors in.

Georgia Tech took a massive dump on my community college dual enrollment credits for engineering core / prereq classes. I got a grand total of three elective hours for macroeconomics. It did make for some solid grade padding - their physics courses, for example, were only marginally more difficult than the CC physics classes I had taken a year or two before - but I still had to take the courses and pay the $$$.

On one hand, the non-transferability of credits is due to the non-standardization of course content from school to school. Content and assessments are usually the major factors.

On the other hand, a lot of it has to do with making as much money as possible. Denying transfer credits is a good way to do it, since it forces the prospective student to retake courses.

 

[ugaboga232]

Yes - med school admissions are insane. The increase in quality of applicants even from the time I applied to when I graduated was nuts.

It is pretty absurd especially for mdphd where like 1000 applicants compete for 300 spots over 50 institutions and these applicants are all absurdly qualified (not me I just got lucky)