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[DCharlie]

"Researching a potential $700 dollar purchase that you won't be able to return once bought is dumb?"

even if i'd researched it more than i did (i did look into it) - all pre-release reviews mentioned that the updated functionality would be available "within weeks"

... yes, about 30 weeks...

 

[cybamerc]

Researching a potential $700 dollar purchase that you won't be able to return once bought is dumb?

No, your comment is dumb. You're laying the blame on consumers which quite frankly is ridiculous. This is not a matter of the PSX being something else than they imagined - the product is broken. It's Sony's fault and noone else's.

And how the hell do you suggest someone researches a product which hasn't been released (IIRC DCharlie picked one up at launch)? If there were any reviews prior to launch I doubt they dealt with the functional problems and Sony promised fixes for the missing features. Aside from simply waiting, what do you suggest a consumer could have done to realize what a crap product PSX is?

 

[kaching]

Heh - Listen to you three...no one said you had to rush out and buy it DAY ONE...you could always wait for POST-release reviews that benefit from a little more time with the finalized hardware. Arrange for a more complete in-store demo (they let you do that in Japan?). Download a copy of the manual, and scan it to see if it sets off any alarm bells. Wait to see how long it took for the first firmware update to become available and see how much of the unfulfilled promise it restored...

You know, do anything but be an absolute slave to impulsive buying habits. Where else do you think companies get the wherewithal to rush products/services to market before they're ready?

You're laying the blame on consumers which quite frankly is ridiculous.

No, I'm laying some of the blame on the consumer. I've already acknowledged where Sony's fault lies in this.

Aside from simply waiting

I know, I know...that's simply UNHEARD of in this day and age. It's stampede to the store as soon as a new "gimme" is available or don't go at all.

 

[DCharlie]

"Heh - Listen to you three...no one said you had to rush out and buy it DAY ONE...you could always wait for POST-release reviews that benefit from a little more time with the finalized hardware. Arrange for a more complete in-store demo (they let you do that in Japan?). Download a copy of the manual, and scan it to see if it sets off any alarm bells. Wait to see how long it took for the first firmware update to become available and see how much of the unfulfilled promise it restored..."

He he. Lots of truth in this ! Store demo - usually consists of a video running through what the unit can do (in PSX case - the video showed stuff it COULDN'T do!).

Also the manual makes references to items that weren't supported so that still wouldn't help.

Good luck in finding anything negative written about a sony product in the Japanese media, they are still touting how good the PSX is even now. I'm sure it's out there somewhere though .

"No, I'm laying some of the blame on the consumer. I've already acknowledged where Sony's fault lies in this."

I'd agree with this. Although i think that the vast majority of blame lays with Sony. I expect a unit to have the functions that they are touting.

"I know, I know...that's simply UNHEARD of in this day and age. It's stampede to the store as soon as a new "gimme" is available or don't go at all."

Well, it's not like this wasn't a product that people didn't want - if it DID do what Sony said it would do , then it was an absolute bargain. It didn't and you are right, people should have waited, but this doesn't excuse what transpired from Sony's end.

I struggled to find a unit at launch, but finally got one.

I felt Sony mislead people with what the machine could do, when the firmware upgrades would come, and what it would be capable of when those upgrades came.

Also of note, is that they tried a relaunch of the PSX a few months back, with the new firmware installed from scratch (still doesn't provide all the functions).

The fact that PSP is going down a flashable upgrade route opens the possibility up for sony rushing the machine out of the door. If done correctly, this can be great news for the consumer of course! But if handled like the PSX fiaso, then they should rot in hell!

 

[Pfucata]

I don't think you can argue that the external HDD for the original PS2 is proof of Sony's error. When FFXI came out, external HDD's were available and you could play the games you were supposed to be able to play.

The PSX is different. It's a veritable fiasco and it's interesting to note how little press this story is getting. There's no excuse for promising certain features and then backing out -- what you have is not buyer's remorse with "next year's model" being better, it's false advertising. Sony screwed up.

Now, being a first-gen buyer of the PSP likely won't have the same effect. Instead, it'll be more like GBA versus GBA-SP in my opinion. A 1st gen PSP must still be able to run all UMD videos and games in the future. What'll likely happen is that PSP rev2 will have better battery life. So as an early adopter, you'll likely put up w/bad battery life -- but I don't think you'll see the same thing as the PSX.

That said, Sony has done full refund buybacks before. They did it with the eMarker and eVilla.

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-272675.html?legacy=cnet

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-272399.html?legacy=cnet

Interestingly both of these products were supposed to be "convergence" type products...

 

[DCharlie]

oh man, a buy back would be sweet!
i can reclaim the 100,000 yen or so i paid!

but lets face it, it's not going to happen.

 

[Pfucata]

Yeah it's unlikely -- but it's not unprecedented. Plus @ GAF, you'll probably get the support of many of the major media sites...

You know, I just realized that there IS a class action lawsuit type of thing in Japan. 3 guys sued Disney for a poor pressing of a DVD movie and won...

 

[Pfucata]

DOH! How could I have forgotten that it was Spirited Away!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2546435.stm

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/article.php?id=5485

So it's not impossible...

 

[kaching]

How much press would you expect the PSX to get? It wasn't expected to sell big numbers and what it did sell through was a fraction of that. All in all, its gotten more attention than any other device like it, or any device that sold at the low volume that it has.

 

[cybamerc]

kaching:

> no one said you had to rush out and buy it DAY ONE...

If it's good enough to be sold it should be good enough to be bought.

> you could always wait for POST-release reviews that benefit from a little more time with
> the finalized hardware.

Reviews don't deal with these issues. User impressions, yes. But that would usually require that someone purchase it.

> No, I'm laying some of the blame on the consumer.

That's dumb.

> I've already acknowledged where Sony's fault lies in this.

Sony released a botched product and lied to consumers. I don't see how it can be anyone but Sony's fault.

 

[Sho Nuff]

How much press would you expect the PSX to get? It wasn't expected to sell big numbers and what it did sell through was a fraction of that. All in all, its gotten more attention than any other device like it, or any device that sold at the low volume that it has.

Are you being sarcastic? The PSX was hyped like crazy in Japan before its release.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Now, being a first-gen buyer of the PSP likely won't have the same effect. Instead, it'll be more like GBA versus GBA-SP in my opinion. A 1st gen PSP must still be able to run all UMD videos and games in the future. What'll likely happen is that PSP rev2 will have better battery life. So as an early adopter, you'll likely put up w/bad battery life -- but I don't think you'll see the same thing as the PSX.

The battery in PSP is detachable, not built-in the PSP.

There is no reason to release a PSP v2 that quickly: it will be released with the SoC shrinked with the 65 nm manufacturing process and it will have longer battery life on the same set of batteries, but the main push will be to cut costs in PSP manufacturing.

I think Sony will be releasing new batteries for the PSP that go beyond the 1800 mAh the original battery provides.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I think Sony will be releasing new batteries for the PSP that go beyond the 1800 mAh the original battery provides.

j/k

 

[JackFrost2012]

How much press would you expect the PSX to get? It wasn't expected to sell big numbers and what it did sell through was a fraction of that.

WHAT? PSX was hyped to Kingdom Come here in Japan. It was basically presented to the world as PS2.5. It's only after its massive failure that they've retroactively tried to pretend oh, they never really cared about it in the first place! Ha ha!

 

[P90]

I don't think you can argue that the external HDD for the original PS2 is proof of Sony's error. When FFXI came out, external HDD's were available and you could play the games you were supposed to be able to play.

The PSX is different. It's a veritable fiasco and it's interesting to note how little press this story is getting. There's no excuse for promising certain features and then backing out -- what you have is not buyer's remorse with "next year's model" being better, it's false advertising. Sony screwed up.

Now, being a first-gen buyer of the PSP likely won't have the same effect. Instead, it'll be more like GBA versus GBA-SP in my opinion. A 1st gen PSP must still be able to run all UMD videos and games in the future. What'll likely happen is that PSP rev2 will have better battery life. So as an early adopter, you'll likely put up w/bad battery life -- but I don't think you'll see the same thing as the PSX.

That said, Sony has done full refund buybacks before. They did it with the eMarker and eVilla.

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-272675.html?legacy=cnet

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-272399.html?legacy=cnet

Interestingly both of these products were supposed to be "convergence" type products...

What games outside of FF XI can you actually use the HDD with? Now the HDD is defunct. Shame on me for thinking Sony would actually utilize a relatively expensive peripheral they developed. I'm just this side of being an Xbox hater, but MS has done a wonderful job of taking advantage of the Xbox HDD. Sony =bad HDD implementers. Sony = pissed off Square. Sony = pissed off purchasers of HDD that were told the HDD would do something functionally more (I have yet found another game that will access a save file off of the HDD). Is it as bad as the PSX? no. Is it very poor planning on Sony's part and a disservice to the consumer? Absolutely. Both the PSX and the HDD represent varying degrees of poor planning and disservice. What can't you understand about that?

As per your opinion about the PSP being like the GBA to GBA SP. Sony better hope that is the case. From a long history of less than stellar products, conceptually or in reliability, in the "convergence" category, Sony and "convergence" is a BAD thing. No make that anything with a laser in it. I am taking a l-o-o-o-o-o-n-g time before I pick up a PSP. And then only with an EB warranty.

 

[Leviathan]

:lol

The Sony damage control in this thread is hilarious.

 

[kaching]

Sho Nuff, JackFrost - my comment was a response to pfucata saying "it's interesting to note how little press this story is getting". Yet somehow, sitting in another country that has yet to receive the PSX and without going out of my way, I'm aware of most of the PSX's trials and tribulations on the Japanese market - from the initial reports that the initial shipment sold out, to the "is it really 90nm" scandal, to the reports that Sony were halting production due to sales that dropped precipitously, to the reports of the firmware releases...what hasn't been covered?

 

[JackFrost2012]

Sho Nuff, JackFrost - my comment was a response to pfucata saying "it's interesting to note how little press this story is getting". Yet somehow, sitting in another country that has yet to receive the PSX and without going out of my way, I'm aware of most of the PSX's trials and tribulations on the Japanese market - from the initial reports that the initial shipment sold out, to the "is it really 90nm" scandal, to the reports that Sony were halting production due to sales that dropped precipitously, to the reports of the firmware releases...what hasn't been covered?

I don't think GAF counts as a mainstream press outlet. Yet!

 

[Pfucata]

Whoa there P90, don't get all hot and bothered. I'm on the same page as you. I'm saying you can't compare the HDD versus the PSX issue. The HDD was a terrible implementation. The PSX is an even worse implementation. By comparing the PSX to the HDD, you are minimizing the real fiasco of the PSX. The HDD was the typical "console upgrades" don't have a lot of market share problem. The PSX is straight up a disaster.

The PSP comments are my opinion, but they're my professional opinion coming from a person who is paid to write about these things. If you buy PSP on day one, I expect
1) A device that'll turn on and recharge properly
2) UMD Video, UMD Audio, and PSP game playback
3) Atrac3/MP3 support
4) A nice screen

Lastly, by mainstream press I mean enough pressure on Sony to cause them to apologize and offer concessions in some manner. You can't advertise features that'll be included in a future firmware update and then back out when those features are collectively (press/consumers) deemed to be important...

The thing w/GAF though is that even though it's not mainstream, it's a gateway to the editors of ign, gamespot, 1up, Firingsquad...

 

[kaching]

cybamerc:

>If it's good enough to be sold it should be good enough to be bought.

Nothing about my comments is intended to suggest any disagreement with that whatsoever. However, that is an ideal that has never matched reality 100% - i.e. there has never been a point in time where every product available on the market could be considered truly "good enough" to be bought. Of course, that does depend on one's own personal standards as the customer, from product to product, and it could very well be that not all of PSX purchasers agree that it wasn't good enough to be bought.

>Reviews don't deal with these issues. User impressions, yes. But that would usually >require that someone purchase it.

What kind of tech reviews are you reading? I've read plenty of professional tech reviews that have dissuaded me from a product because of problems they highlighted.

>> No, I'm laying some of the blame on the consumer.

>That's dumb.

Yep - heard that incredibly convincing argument the first time. Consumers are just victims, gullible marks, and have no way to empower themselves to be anything other than that.

>Sony released a botched product and lied to consumers. I don't see how it can be >anyone but Sony's fault.

Sony released a product that wasn't feature complete but announced that to the marketplace before releasing the product. They indicated firmware updates would provide the missing functionality but provided no specific timeline for those updates. Following two firmware updates, they are apparently abandoning further firmware updates for the current PSX models, leaving their promise to put back all the missing features unfulfilled. However, that doesn't establish that they lied because it provides no proof that they never actually intended to fulfill that promise in the first place. They may very well have planned to put back all the missing features, but realized in the process of providing the firmware updates that they simply couldn't.

 

[kaching]

I don't think GAF counts as a mainstream press outlet. Yet!

True, its a great news aggregator. The important point is that the news items were not sourced from GAF itself, they came from mainstream press outlets.

Lastly, by mainstream press I mean enough pressure on Sony to cause them to apologize and offer concessions in some manner.

Again, the PSX sold, what, 100K units or so? How much pressure from mainstream press does that kind sales performance usually get? What other products that sold on that scale ever got the same kind of pressure you're asking for in the face of poor implementation or unfulfilled promise?

 

[Lazy8s]

Consumer responsibility has nothing to do with a company's obligation to not deliver an inadequate product.

 

[DCharlie]

"How much pressure from mainstream press does that kind sales performance usually get? What other products that sold on that scale ever got the same kind of pressure you're asking for in the face of poor implementation or unfulfilled promise?"

The Xbox - in Japan.

 

[heidern]

I've enjoyed watching the trials and tribulations of the players in the games industry for the past 7 or 8 years. In that time I've seen Nintendo increasingly struggle in the console market share stakes. This has always disappointed me seeing Mario and co trying to fight the good fight, but there have always been things to cling on to; the booming balance sheets paraded every year, the domination of the GBA, and the sense of pride in the Nintendo community to be able to battle the fight against opposing fanboys and against the odds.

With years of hardened practice, I always saw Nintendo fans as the unchallenged masters in the game of fan flame fests. The finely honed ability to spin, to seek out positive nuances for the big N meant that even when the opposition had incredibly potent ammo, the inexorable skills of the hive would result in even the biggest failure to be lined with solid silver. It meant that any thread with negativity about Nintendo would explode in size. Defeat was never an option. Organised damage control units would be deployed with merciless precision.

But now, I must concede inferiority. The Sony fanboys in this thread have put us to shame. The art of damage control has truly been taken to unprecedented heights. In one swift blow the years of training and experience have been shown to be inadequate. I humbly salute you all.

Following two firmware updates, they are apparently abandoning further firmware updates for the current PSX models, leaving their promise to put back all the missing features unfulfilled. However, that doesn't establish that they lied because it provides no proof that they never actually intended to fulfill that promise in the first place.

To take this one example, such literary chicanery is truly a sight to behold. Even someone as naturally dishonest Tony Blair would be proud of such spin. The world of politics is one that you would all no doubt thrive in. Defending the indefensible is incredibly difficult, believe me, I know. Yet such pure talent is a rare thing indeed. Take a moment to take pride and in and appreciate what you do.

 

[DCharlie]

you know , i could accept the fact that "hey, i've wasted >$700", and that they are dropping support and not giving existing users what they were promised because the userbase doesn't warrant it... but that would only be IF they weren't about to release a new unit that WILL potentially give those missing functions and is more than likely not too dissimilar to the original machine!!!

My guess is the PSX1.1 will have a sexier (and smaller) design with a bigger hard disk - now ...

If that machine has the base functions that the PSX1 should have had, then i can't see how anyone can defend what sony are doing. They are affectively admitting that they fucked over the 100k+ people who bought the original and potentially (speculative mode on) allocated people within the PSX team to work on software for the PSX1.1 - WHILST still promising firmware upgrades to existing users that now AREN'T coming!!!

If it doesn't have the features, i'll feel slightly less bitter, but then aren't sony just asking people to trust them not to fuck them over again on the firmware upgrades? Where does it end?

either way, Sony come out of it looking like twats. IMO of course, i'm sure there'll be a queue of people whole defend the other side!

Remember - even on 100,000k units, sony generated $700,000,000 in revenue. My gut feeling is that this is a move just to rebrand and repackage the original offering. The PSX is already tarred with the "this isn't very good" brush - and what better way to solve this image problem : rerelease the same product with the problems fixed - effectively a rebadging, rather than plug away at fixing what is seen as a dog product.

 

[Blackace]

DC how dare you give them money and expect them to deliver what they promised! shame on you for buying things! everyone should wait....and then... well no one will buy... so no one will still know how good or bad things are.... yeah that's the answer! bad DC! bad! * rubs DC's nose in the pile of shit sitting in his living room!*

 

[DCharlie]

f*cking hell, and i though it was just me who had turned into a human owl.

It's 4:08 am - goto bed! don't you have work tomorrow?

 

[Blackace]

f*cking hell, and i though it was just me who had turned into a human owl.

It's 4:08 am - goto bed! don't you have work tomorrow?

I am in bed!! hahaha why the f*ck are you up?

 

[DCharlie]

you know when old people have problems when "A storm is a brewing?"

... i tought it was all bullshit...

until today.

My left leg has been in utter agony since the start of the Typhoon , so much so i've not been able to sleep yet. Now things are dying down, it's starting to go back to normal.

Coincidence or spooky phenomenom? ... i'd go with Coincidence.

Fantastic timing, i organised a "late start" today because i've been so knackered this week...


Anyways, derailing from the issue.... PSP launch is gonna be fun.

 

[Lazy8s]

Although Sony only quietly released news of the change a few short weeks before launch, the PSX had been downgraded far enough ahead of time that the casing on the launch units was able to reflect the lesser set of supported standards/logos. During that time, Sony continued their involvement in a PSX presale campaign under the pretense of full functionality.

Also, after the troubled launch, Sony had promised to make good on their original claims for all users.

 

[kaching]

heidern - nice bluster. Now, instead of just claiming my comment is literal chicanery how about you set about proving it. It shouldn't be hard if its as blatant as you claim- the comment you quote is simply an account of facts related to how Sony handled the PSX post-release, intended to determine whether Cybamerc's claim that Sony lied is as irrefutable as he made it sound. If the proof exists beyond a shadow of a doubt that Sony lied, rather than simply failed to fulfill their promise, by all means, reveal it to us.

Or you can stick to your current MO - several paragraphs of preamble before actually making your main point which amounts to nothing more than accusing someone of something in colorful ways without actually supporting the accusation with proof.

There is literal chicanery present, but it isn't in my post.

 

[P90]

either way, Sony come out of it looking like twats. IMO of course, i'm sure there'll be a queue of people whole defend the other side!

Remember - even on 100,000k units, sony generated $700,000,000 in revenue.

You got that right.

But 100,000 k (100,000,000) X $700 = $70,000,000,000 :yikes: That's bigger than MS revenue!
100K X $700 = $70,000,000

 

[kaching]

Consumer responsibility has nothing to do with a company's obligation to not deliver an inadequate product.

At the very least, the consumer is responsible for determining what makes a product inadequate, no?

the PSX had been downgraded far enough ahead of time that the casing on the launch units was able to reflect the lesser set of supported standards/logos.

And you came to this determination how?

 

[P90]

Consumer responsibility has nothing to do with a company's obligation to not deliver an inadequate product.

In the US, we have the "Lemon Law" to protect against crappy products like the PSX.

 

[DCharlie]

"the PSX had been downgraded far enough ahead of time that the casing on the launch units was able to reflect the lesser set of supported standards/logos.
And you came to this determination how?"

well, i think the down grade announcement came on December 1st
with the launch on December 13th.

So i think what Lazy is saying is that they had to have known that they were going to downgrade well ahead of that date, because the art on the packaging and the unit itself would have had to have been changed.

Not sure whether that time line for package changing is reasonable or not.

"But 100,000 k (100,000,000) X $700 = $70,000,000,000 :yikes: That's bigger than MS revenue!
100K X $700 = $70,000,000"

lol. I <3 maffs! sorry, i was a little monged at that time last night.

 

[kaching]

Did the packaging actually reflect the downgraded specs? I read what Lazy was saying as implying they had the time to do so, but didn't change any of the packaging.

 

[DCharlie]

the packaging WAS changed.
The PSX case itself does not have the MP3 logo on it for instance.
The manual does have the full set of logos in it though.

Just to add : One area where i feel sony definitely mislead people was on the DVD performance saying that it was 24x speed... what they meant was , it was 24x speed of a cd-rom drive.... Which was then cut to 12x speed.

Christ knows WHAT it actually is because it takes close to an hour to burn a DVD, as opposed to their "5 minutes for 1 hour" claim.

Also, there was an article that i recall which talked about the usual fluff (although this was never actually promised as a feature per se , it was definitely disccused) regarding downloading on movies on demand and music from Sony online.

Given that the machine has a large HDD and an internet connection, you'd have thought this would have been something that sony would have leveraged?

And i guess this comes back to something sony keep doing - with this idea of the set top box, and wanting to control your living room, internet distribution of content etc... etc...

we heard it for the PS2 at launch, then when the HDD launched, then the PSX, now the PSP and we'll definitely get it for the PS3.

They keep talking about it , but they never actually get around to doing it!

It's surely the way for Sony to get a massive insurmountable (?) foothold in the industry and tie people in to a contents service, but they just don't seem to be able to put the pieces together.

 

[Pfucata]

Why don't you pool all the GAF'ers with a PSX, find a GAF'er who's a lawyer in Japan and do that class action lawsuit seeking a mere $700 for each person and a new working PSX?

People won the suit against Disney for encoding their DVD with too much red! (The trick to winning being that they didn't sue for a million dollars for emotional distress)

 

[Lazy8s]

kaching:

If the proof exists beyond a shadow of a doubt that Sony lied, rather than simply failed to fulfill their promise, by all means, reveal it to us.

Sony continued taking orders for a product that they knew was boasting unattainable selling points passed a reasonable opportunity for disclosure. After finally revealing the truth, they then persisted in selling the unit with the promise of restoring that basic functionality. These can become grounds for false advertising.

At the very least, the consumer is responsible for determining what makes a product inadequate, no?

No. A product in inadequate by law when it doesn't perform the core function(s) it was advertised to do.

And you came to this determination how?

From the timetable: as I said, the physical casing on the unit was changed to show support for less standards/logos, yet the announcement was only quietly made a week and a half before launch as Sony finished out a phenomenally successful pre-order campaign.

 

[JackFrost2012]

Following two firmware updates, they are apparently abandoning further firmware updates for the current PSX models, leaving their promise to put back all the missing features unfulfilled. However, that doesn't establish that they lied because it provides no proof that they never actually intended to fulfill that promise in the first place.

Holy fucking shit, I can't fucking believe what I just fucking read!

Your argument basically boils down to "Sony didn't lie because they had their fingers crossed." If you say something and never intend to do it in the first place, that's still a lie! In fact, I'd argue that promising something with no intent of following through is a worse lie than promising something and not following through due to incompetence in the first place.

The entire reason Sony promised early PSX buyers this added functionality was TO GET PEOPLE (like DCharlie) TO BUY IT. Sony doesn't just send out press releases for the hell of it cause their engineers get off on dreaming big. They promised people who bought the machine these features because they knew that people wouldn't purchase it otherwise.

kaching, your post is truly the most impressive and mindboggling piece of spin I've ever seen at GAF, and believe me, that's saying somehting. I suggest someone give you a new tag to commemorate the occasion! I suggest "Dizzy from spinning," "It's not a lie if you don't mean it," or " I paid $700 for an incomplete hardware revision and all I got was this lousy tag"

 

[DCharlie]

... actually, it occured to me to today that i bought the high capacity model, which was around $900!

 

[kaching]

Huh? I think you're overreacting to what I said, Jack. I'm saying that a promise can go unfulfilled for at least a couple of different reasons:

- because one never intended to fulfill the promise, or
- because the promise was beyond one's capability to fulfill and this wasn't realized until after the promise was made

One's a lie and one isn't. So which is Sony accused of and where's the proof that supports it? Don't you dare have the gall to accuse me of a "mindboggling piece of spin" if you're going to just sit there and ASSUME Sony lied. Based on the evidence I've seen, it looks much more like a case of incompetence on Sony's part than an attempt to deliberately mislead. Either way, they failed the customer in this case and I've never said any differently, if you bothered to read anything else I've written in this thread (or other recent threads with references to the PSX, for that matter). That's hardly an attempt to spin, that's just a disagreement on the particulars of what went wrong and why.

 

[DCharlie]

"So which is Sony accused of and where's the proof that supports it? Don't you dare have the gall to accuse me of a "mindboggling piece of spin" if you're going to just sit there and ASSUME Sony lied"

Okay, lets sum this mess up :

Sony aren't now giving us (PSX owners) the functions they said they would -

The contention is that this is not a lie because they did INTEND to give them to us, but it ended up they either couldn't because of lack of software skills or issues with the hardware right?

Now, i'd look at it like this :

Excluding the obvious lie : offering functionality without having anything practical to show that it's possible (OBVIOUSLY because they couldn't deliver it!) . That's a lie because the final functionality of the machine is less than what they said it would be. I don't see how we can escape this !

If it's lack of software skills, then that's incompetence and potential shows they were offering functions based on very poor estimates. is that's a lie? But they made statements regarding the units ability that turned out to be not true!

However, they seem to have magically been able to resolve all the issues for the new unit, so someone somewhere has been putting effort into a new product while chosing to ignore commitments made to PSX purchasers. This may not be lying, but it's not honouring the initial pledge made to the customers whcih is hardly something to be taken lightly.

However, if it's the hardware, then i find it hard to believe that they wouldn't have noticed that the things they claimed they could offer weren't possible at a fairly early stage. Therefore, i'd suggest that there was some lying or definite conceeling of the thruth.

 

[TekunoRobby]

This thread is very educational, I appreciate the efforts of all parties involved in this debate. I honestly didn't know about the lack of power consumer have in Japan. Sorry I can't really add anything but I just wanted to express gratitude.

 

[Scalemail Ted]

Huh? I think you're overreacting to what I said, Jack. I'm saying that a promise can go unfulfilled for at least a couple of different reasons:

- because one never intended to fulfill the promise, or
- because the promise was beyond one's capability to fulfill and this wasn't realized until after the promise was made

One's a lie and one isn't. So which is Sony accused of and where's the proof that supports it? Don't you dare have the gall to accuse me of a "mindboggling piece of spin" if you're going to just sit there and ASSUME Sony lied. Based on the evidence I've seen, it looks much more like a case of incompetence on Sony's part than an attempt to deliberately mislead. Either way, they failed the customer in this case and I've never said any differently, if you bothered to read anything else I've written in this thread (or other recent threads with references to the PSX, for that matter). That's hardly an attempt to spin, that's just a disagreement on the particulars of what went wrong and why.

Either way leads to credibility issues, no? If they were foolish and over zealous enough to hype a product with imaginary, idealistic features then it should surely result in serious credibility issues when it comes time to evaluate any future product announcements, no?

 

[P90]

Either way leads to credibility issues, no? If they were foolish and over zealous enough to hype a product with imaginary, idealistic features then it should surely result in serious credibility issues when it comes time to evaluate any future product announcements, no?

<sarcasm> Oh no! SCEA did not create this fiasco. All of Sony's divisions are seperate and autonomous. Blame the consumer for wanting a unit that functions as it is marketed. Prove the programmers suck. You can't generalize within a company's line of products because of the autonomy of the different divisions. Lying isn't lying. No trends can be found that extend to other products. <end of sarcasm>

 

[Panajev2001a]

<sarcasm> Oh no! SCEA did not create this fiasco. All of Sony's divisions are seperate and autonomous. Blame the consumer for wanting a unit that functions as it is marketed. Prove the programmers suck. You can't generalize within a company's line of products because of the autonomy of the different divisions. Lying isn't lying. No trends can be found that extend to other products. <end of sarcasm>

Ever tried Sarcasm 101: a Beginner's guide ? You desperately need it.

 

[DCharlie]

"Ever tried Sarcasm 101: a Beginner's guide ? You desperately need it."

actually , he makes a valid point - if i code something shitty that doesn't work within the company i work for ... do our external clients (multi billion $ clients at that) say "that DCharlie... he's fucked it up again." or do they say "Big Bucks Ltd FUCKING SUCK!!!!"

Yes, as a coder or anyone at any level, you affect the franchise you work for by your actions. So if sony coders suck balls at devilering an interface, then it's the Sony franchise that suffers. I'm sure 99/100 people couldn't give a fuck which individual fucked up - if there is a problem with a product then the blame falls at several levels from the top management down, with Kutaragi as a CEO carrying the can (THATS HIS FUCKING JOB!!!)

 

[Panajev2001a]

He is not the C.E.O. of Sony corp. .


Yet...


Also, I understand that the brand name is tarnished if one product pisses people off no matter which subdivision made it.

That is not my point: fuck-ups of SEL should not doom and gloom PSP or a justification to say that Sony programmers are shitty and untalented which hopefully is handled better by SCE than the way SEL handled PSX.

BTW, have you checked out Mr. muscle's new apartment ? Darn that looks good .

 

[pilonv1]