Support NeoGAF

[angrod14]

Let me preface this by saying that a well designed game shouldn't require ANY sort of external guide. It should be self sufficient, a whole in itself, and the player should be able to organically discover things as he progresses, providing he puts in a REASONABLE amount of effort and patience.

Souls games just don't cut it in this regard.

These games are kind of a mess, and currently playing Demon Souls have just confirmed that to me. Right from the get go the game overwhelms you with possibilities (builds, stats, weapons, special item of choice, etc.). I assume any choice should be viable since there's nothing indicating the new player one is better than the other. However, in Dark Souls, for example, it wasn't quite as straightforward.

As my "special" starting item, I chose the Master Key, since I assumed it would be the most useful, allowing me to enter areas that otherwise would remain inaccessible (a perfectly reasonable assumption). Turns out, it is quite the worst starting item a beginner can choose, because you're NOT SUPPOSED to access certain areas early. I ended up going to a "late game area" where they ripped me apart.

You would probably say to me that the fact that I was getting my ass kicked should've been sufficient sign that I wasn't supposed to be there that early, but the thing is, every fucking area you go at the beginning you get your ass kicked, so how in the world is the player supposed to know which one is the correct? Why would a game allow me to enter an area I'm not supposed to be in yet? It's just terrible game design.

In Demon Souls things are even worse. I entered the first area of the first world, obliterated everything there and defeated the Phallic boss or whatever that chit is. Then there was the bridge section, which I did immediately after. I can't begin to describe how frustrating it was, how long it took me to get to the Tower Knight and defeat him. I progressed to the second world and couldn't advance too much because I was getting crushed.

I started watching Fighting Cowboy in YouTube and, turns out, you aren't supposed to do the bridge section that early. You're supposed to jump to world II, grab some items, but not do the whole level, then jump to the LAST world and do it complete, then return to the bridge area in world I, then go finish the World II, etc. Again, how the F am I supposed to know all that? Shouldn't the second world be the logical path after finishing the first world? It is just terrible, terrible design.

Then there are so many finicky aspects in the traversal and combat that are just ridiculous. Bridges going down out of nowhere as you cross them, in areas full of enemies, incredibly narrow hallways that barely allow you to hit enemies with your sword, dragons that come out of nowhere and torch everything, items located in pits which you're supposed to "traverse" by letting your character fall in an exact position, and I can go on and on.

And the games are just so... esoteric. Jesus, did Aleister Crowley directed this? What in the world is "tendency", "faith", "intelligence", 100 different items, many of them with obscure descriptions. It feels like I'm going to summon the devil or something. "This weapon levels with this, but this other one with that, etc.". "In order to get X sword you must shoot that dragon with arrows 500 times in X angle as he flies". I just want to slay some mofos, cut with all the crap.

Bloodborne, on the other hand, was a bit special. Things were much simpler. It didn't feel that overwhelming. The game is more or less linear and while you can go certain areas sooner or later, it isn't as critical as the other games. Combat is direct, raw. It still suffered from shitty level design in certain areas (that Memphis bs, then the other late area with the hidden bell-ringing hoes), but the art style and presentation is so eye candy that makes those headaches worth it. I ended up getting the Plat and 100% of BB. But as far as From games, I'm done with them forever. They're just not worth the amount of time and frustration. I don't know how in the world they're so successful critically and commercially.

 

[jshackles]

 

[64bitmodels]

If souls games aren't well designed then i guess game design doesn't correlate to how fun or good a game is because these games rock.

 

[Schmendrick]

Classic case of "git gud"
Lol @getting your "ass kicked everywhere"......
These are games designed for a community that literally tries to go for naked runs and hard earned exploration progress and you cry about not being hindered to stumble into high level areas and well hidden secret treasures......

To put it simple: the games are masterfully designed (mostly) for their respective target audience which is the kind that enjoy finding stuff out on their own and often times the (very) hard way.
You sound like you need way more handholding in games than soulslikes in general are designed to offer.
Play something else.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

 

[LectureMaster]

 

[Gaiff]

The Master Key doesn't give access to any late-game area though, so not sure what you're talking about. It gives you access to several areas that you otherwise need a special key for immediately. Useful for experienced players who want to get to the good stuff quickly without having to pick the Thief class.

Why would a game allow me to enter an area I'm not supposed to be in yet? It's just terrible game design.

How lol? Is the game supposed to baby you and protect you? It's a hostile world. If you get owned and can't do shit against the enemies, it's a sign that you don't belong there. Sounds like great design to me. Experienced players can just go there should they please and noobs will be taught a hard and valuable lesson. What's your problem with that?

 

[lughnasadh123]

You're daring to challenge a series with an masochistic audience that praises the convoluted jank as a positive feature that delightfully crushes the balls. This is also the same audience that needed smelling salts at the thought of an open world souls game with a map and mount that, when done, sang it's praises because of course they did. God help your soul young man.

 

[Randall365]

Good on you OP - you know what else sucks - Gibson guitars, Rolex watches and Ferraris! Take that world!

 

[angrod14]

The Master Key doesn't give access to any late-game area though, so not sure what you're talking about. It gives you access to several areas that you otherwise need a special key for immediately. Useful for experienced players who want to get to the good stuff quickly without having to pick the Thief class.

I ended up in Blightown right from the start, thanks to the Master Key. It might not be a "late area" but you sure as hell shouldn't be there as a beginner.

 

[kevboard]

Let me preface this by saying that a well designed game shouldn't require ANY sort of external guide. It should be self sufficient, a whole in itself, and the player should be able to organically discover things as he progresses, providing he puts in a REASONABLE amount of effort and patience.

aaaand there is where I stop reading.
that instantly reads like you are the target audience for "modern cinematic AAA games" with yellow paint, constant mission markers and 3 NPCs that constantly tell you what to do next and how to solve every situation.

if you need a guide to complete a souls game, you suck at the game.
and the things that are obscure and/or obtuse are always the optional quests or items.

having optional things that are hard to figure out, especially in a game that is clearly designed around a community working together (summons, messages, ghosts etc.), are absolutely ok to have.

the main questline in every souls game is very self explanatory and easy to follow, unless you suck.
the only one that was even remotely hard to navigate was Dark Souls 1, and even there it's not actually hard if you truly are paying attention.

 

[nkarafo]

I like that you are on your own in these games. You just try to progress, that's it. It doesn't matter where you go, there is no "wrong path" just the one that gives you the less resistance. It's up to you to discover the safest areas.

 

[bender]

The design is precisely why the games became popular as the design flew in the face of modern design concepts that overaggressive in hand holding players and presented no challenge.

 

[Pop]

If ya absolutely need a guide for any game then you are sad to say not smarter than a 5th grader

Souls games are very easy to follow, especially the main story quests

 

[Gaiff]

I ended up in Blightown right from the start, thanks to the Master Key. It might not be a "late area" but you sure as hell shouldn't be there as a beginner.

Sure, but what about experienced players who want to get there right away? Should From only consider noobies and nurture them like little newborns so they don't get lost and killed? You got demolished by the enemies. That's enough to tell you you shouldn't be there. You want the game to literally block access to those areas, which is what awful game design is.

 

[Kings Field]

 

[PauloRoberto]

For Soulsborne Side quests, I absolutelly agree. The way a side quest is shown in a souls borne game only really works in a linear game - e.g, Ostrava's questline works quite well because is extremely tight (i mean, it is basically in Boletaria Castle and some curiosity is needed and rewarded). For God's sake, it's not possible (actually it is, but you all understand) that nobody sees milicent's quest line and followed it without any guide! At least a general tip of where the hell this NPC goes after interaction! Eileen's questline only works because Yharnam is not a big area and her second interaction is not necessary.

Long sotre short: a diary of each NPC and a general idea of how continue a quest should be implemented.

 

[kevboard]

Sure, but what about experienced players who want to get there right away? Should From only consider noobies and nurture them like little newborns so they don't get lost and killed? You got demolished by the enemies. That's enough to tell you you shouldn't be there.

remember also that you can finish Dark Souls 1 at level 1 with a sword you get right next to the starting area, and people do so without getting hit once.

Blight Town also isn't a hard area. it's annoying, but not hard lol. pretty sure I stumbled through the entire area before even fighting the gargoyles, and my only issue was that it was annoying to navigate on the 360 with constant framedrops lol

You want the game to literally block access to those areas, which is what awful game design is.

 

[Gaiff]

remember also that you can finish Dark Souls 1 at level 1 with a sword you get right next to the starting area, and people do so without getting hit once.

Blight Town also isn't a hard area. it's annoying, but not hard lol

Blighttown for noobs is absolutely a difficult zone. Narrow pathways overlooking bottomless pits, enemies hiding in the shadows that blow darts at you that inflict toxic, a status that can kill you in 10 seconds if you don't have the rare item to cure it, enemies frequently hiding in dark corners, and that poisonous swamp you just waddle through if you don’t have the Rusted Iron Ring.

 

[Puscifer]

Might need a live tag

 

[kevboard]

Blighttown for noobs is absolutely a difficult zone. Narrow pathways overlooking bottomless pits, enemies hiding in the shadows that blow darts at you that inflict toxic, a status that can kill you in 10 seconds if you don't have the rare item to cure it, enemies frequently hiding in dark corners.

I didn't think it was especially hard, because once you actually just whack those enemies they go down relatively easily. you have to be very cautious sure, but I didn't really have any issues there aside from the framerate on the original 360 version

 

[gamingforum1]

Elden Ring is one of the best games of all time imo, but the quest design sucks, again imo. Too many missables for very dumb reasons, like, organically playing the game.

 

[Northeastmonk]

I love how the games aren’t in sync. You have to figure out what to do. What’s not fun are the corridor hallways that trigger the cutscene regardless how you approach it.

Is this a case of someone who wants familiar versus something a little more complex? You’re like Dorthy in the sense that you can only follow the yellow brick road to Oz. You don’t want it to detour. You need an easy to follow path to get there. Man, that’s what I got sick of. Which is why I love the Souls game(s) so much.

 

[Danjin44]

I highly disagree with that.

For me the fun about these games is figuring stuff out yourself and yes sometimes I make mistake I get killed for it…..there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Sounds like you want these games to be something they're not. Straightforward action games are dime a dozen. Take your pick. But you won't find that here.

 

[Guerilla Munch]

I actually agree with everything you wrote. I've tried to get into From games a few times over the years and after trying and quitting Elden Ring I'm done with them forever, they're just not for me I guess.

I've beaten BotW 100% on Master Mode, platinumed the 360 Ninja Gaidens, etc, so it's not the difficulty that turns me off, it's the utter lack of any explanation. I can see why that appeals to people but I just don't have the time or the interest to do hours of homework in order to play a game properly.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Theyre not badly designed, they are just boring.

 

[LordOfChaos]

You're not well designed

 

[Werewolf Jones]

I beat Demon's Souls PS5 first time in July without the use of a guide. lmao. You're just a casual gamer. It's fine.

 

[Raven117]

This is a great troll.

Like. Very nice. Would give it s-tier due to the ease of subject matter, but it was very well executed.

 

[rubik's dude]

Let me preface this by saying that a well designed game shouldn't require ANY sort of external guide.

I ain't reading more than this unless you're paying me to be your therapist. Also, I can definitely say that you don't need a guide for any of these games, I beat DeS and DaS1 without any back when I was a very dumb teenager.

 

[Warablo]

I feel the same way, but don't tell Soul fan's this. I enjoy the games too, just don't think its the greatest games of all-time.

 

[kevboard]

I actually agree with everything you wrote. I've tried to get into From games a few times over the years and after trying and quitting Elden Ring I'm done with them forever, they're just not for me I guess.

I've beaten BotW 100% on Master Mode, platinumed the 360 Ninja Gaidens, etc, so it's not the difficulty that turns me off, it's the utter lack of any explanation. I can see why that appeals to people but I just don't have the time or the interest to do hours of homework in order to play a game properly.

elden ring literally shows a golden streak of light that goes in the direction you need to go next... there is nothing to figure out... just to towards the light... that's it.
that is wild.
no wonder every game these days has mission markers.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

I agree with you in regards to Demon's Souls, which I think is a terribly made game from top to bottom for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. More broadly, I think the biggest sin of games in the genre is that they can just be really annoying. Your punishment for dying is that you have to retread a bunch of pavement and mooks to give the actual challenge another shot. Some games in the genre handle it better than others, but too many of these games really get bogged down by that.

Which isn't to say I don't like the subgenre - Bloodborne remains one of my favorite games - but I do agree that the games can be waaaay too esoteric for their own good at times.

 

[GooseMan69]

You're daring to challenge a series with an masochistic audience that praises the convoluted jank as a positive feature that delightfully crushes the balls. This is also the same audience that needed smelling salts at the thought of an open world souls game with a map and mount that, when done, sang it's praises because of course they did. God help your soul young man.

And an audience who tried to tell people with a straight face that making the player repeat monotonous boss runs over and over is good game design. Of course they did a 180 when FromSoft themselves admitted it was garbage and got rid of it in Elden Ring.

I fucking HATE when games make me repeat the easy parts over and over again just to get back to the part that is actually difficult. FromSoft games are littered with that kind of stuff.

 

[Comandr]

I really really dislike the level design of Demon's Souls, and all of the Dark Souls games. It feels like DeS and DS1-3 were intentionally designed to confuse most players, and only the most persistent would figure out the layout and - jesus, the quests - to squeeze the most out of the games. I didn't have any problems with Bloodborne, Sekiro, and certainly not Elden Ring.

 

[NeverYouMind]

I agree with the premise, but the examples you list are flimsy.

As my "special" starting item, I chose the Master Key, since I assumed it would be the most useful, allowing me to enter areas that otherwise would remain inaccessible (a perfectly reasonable assumption). Turns out, it is quite the worst starting item a beginner can choose, because you're NOT SUPPOSED to access certain areas early. I ended up going to a "late game area" where they ripped me apart.

Blighttown is crap at any level and the Master Key lets you skip most of it. Unless you start as a thief class, the Master Key is the best starting item. Only other one worth getting is the Black Firebombs (for tutorial boss) if you want the Demon Hammer without trading executioner's Sack to the bird.

In Demon Souls things are even worse. I entered the first area of the first world, obliterated everything there and defeated the Phallic boss or whatever that chit is. Then there was the bridge section, which I did immediately after. I can't begin to describe how frustrating it was, how long it took me to get to the Tower Knight and defeat him. I progressed to the second world and couldn't advance too much because I was getting crushed.

I started watching Fighting Cowboy in YouTube and, turns out, you aren't supposed to do the bridge section that early. You're supposed to jump to world II, grab some items, but not do the whole level, then jump to the LAST world and do it complete, then return to the bridge area in world I, then go finish the World II, etc. Again, how the F am I supposed to know all that? Shouldn't the second world be the logical path after finishing the first world? It is just terrible, terrible design.

The dragon arriving is telegraphed and there is a lower level in the bridge that is safe from the dragon's flame the whole way. The worlds can be tackled in any order. The difficulty is uneven even inside the levels. Even end game exclusively physical weapons are practically useless inside the 2nd Riftstone levels for example.

Then there are so many finicky aspects in the traversal and combat that are just ridiculous. Bridges going down out of nowhere as you cross them, in areas full of enemies, incredibly narrow hallways that barely allow you to hit enemies with your sword, dragons that come out of nowhere and torch everything, items located in pits which you're supposed to "traverse" by letting your character fall in an exact position, and I can go on and on.

I agree.

And the games are just so... esoteric. Jesus, did Aleister Crowley directed this? What in the world is "tendency", "faith", "intelligence", 100 different items, many of them with obscure descriptions. It feels like I'm going to summon the devil or something. "This weapon levels with this, but this other one with that, etc.". "In order to get X sword you must shoot that dragon with arrows 500 times in X angle as he flies". I just want to slay some mofos, cut with all the crap.

World tendency, player tendency, tail weapon acquisitions, and convoluted weapon upgrade paths are valid criticisms. However, the stats have toggleable descriptions. While there are plenty of missable items, there is always a way to run to the next boss or enemy without dying.

 

[AngelMuffin]

1. It’s *Demon’s Souls
2. From games aren’t for everyone & that’s ok
3. Try any Ubisoft game out there, they’ll hold your hand and never let go.

 

[Muffdraul]

They aren't designed to be fun. They're designed to make people feel awesome for having the necessary patience and free time to git gud.

 

[DeepEnigma]

 

[rm082e]

You are wrong.

 

[NeverYouMind]

They aren't designed to be fun. They're designed to make people feel awesome for having the necessary patience and free time to git gud.

I never got gud, I only got more creative. I had fun in most of them (Ringed City and Shadow of the Erdtree are lame).

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

You are right, OP.

This is awesome game design.

 

[ReBurn]

They're designed well enough. They're just hard and I don't have the patience to learn the patterns.

 

[MasterDerico]

Worst "sub-genre" ever created imo.
But i respect those who like it!

 

[simpatico]

Have you heard the good news about Ubisoft? You never have to worry about losing sight of the quest marker for forgetting what quests you have to choose from.

 

[Dacvak]

I somewhat agree with Demon’s Souls, but basically all of the rest are designed just fine imo.

 

[Aion002]

I started watching Fighting Cowboy in YouTube and, turns out, you aren't supposed to do the bridge section that early. You're supposed to jump to world II, grab some items, but not do the whole level, then jump to the LAST world and do it complete, then return to the bridge area in world I, then go finish the World II, etc. Again, how the F am I supposed to know all that? Shouldn't the second world be the logical path after finishing the first world? It is just terrible, terrible design.

Then there are so many finicky aspects in the traversal and combat that are just ridiculous. Bridges going down out of nowhere as you cross them, in areas full of enemies, incredibly narrow hallways that barely allow you to hit enemies with your sword, dragons that come out of nowhere and torch everything, items located in pits which you're supposed to "traverse" by letting your character fall in an exact position, and I can go on and on.

And the games are just so... esoteric. Jesus, did Aleister Crowley directed this? What in the world is "tendency", "faith", "intelligence", 100 different items, many of them with obscure descriptions. It feels like I'm going to summon the devil or something. "This weapon levels with this, but this other one with that, etc.". "In order to get X sword you must shoot that dragon with arrows 500 times in X angle as he flies". I just want to slay some mofos, cut with all the crap.

That's the cool part: You don't.


The best part of Souls games is discovering stuff by yourself and learning how to deal with it.

Watching videos telling you how to do something is like removing most of the fun of the games.

I finished Demon's Souls before it was popular, I didn't use any guide and it ended up being one of my most cherished memories playing video games.

The fun of learning how the game works and finding my own solutions is why I love Souls games.

There's no correct way to play Souls games, each player can find different solutions that fits their play style, they just have to pay attention.

Elden Ring is extremely popular because it amplified that.

You probably started playing them with the wrong mentality or maybe they’re just not for you.

 

[LordCBH]

That’s quite the word salad to say you didn’t git gud.

 

[MALpractice311]

Everything that OP said is basically why I love the Souls games and their progeny. They're a gigantic middle finger to modern game design and I am here for it.