cireza
Member
So letting the player understand by himself where to go is bad design.
That's funny because I always do the bridge and Tower Knight immediately after Phalanx.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
hemo memo
You can't die before your death
Souls games rely on artificial difficulty, where cheap tricks make it seem like the game is designed to make you fail, rather than offering a fair challenge.
Poor communication adds to this frustration, as key mechanics and strategies are often left unexplained, turning the game into a guessing game instead of a test of skill.
The difficulty spikes can also be inconsistent, with some bosses or areas suddenly becoming much harder without any clear progression, disrupting the game's flow.
Exploration, while rewarding in theory, often feels like a punishment, with hidden traps and overpowered enemies making the risks outweigh the rewards. Combine that with the repetitive gameplay of dying and retracing your steps, and the overall experience can become tedious and discouraging.
To make things worse, the game's community is notoriously unwelcoming. Many fans pride themselves on the games’ difficulty, dismissing every criticism.
So, yeah. They're badly designd.
Poor communication adds to this frustration, as key mechanics and strategies are often left unexplained, turning the game into a guessing game instead of a test of skill.
The difficulty spikes can also be inconsistent, with some bosses or areas suddenly becoming much harder without any clear progression, disrupting the game's flow.
Exploration, while rewarding in theory, often feels like a punishment, with hidden traps and overpowered enemies making the risks outweigh the rewards. Combine that with the repetitive gameplay of dying and retracing your steps, and the overall experience can become tedious and discouraging.
To make things worse, the game's community is notoriously unwelcoming. Many fans pride themselves on the games’ difficulty, dismissing every criticism.
So, yeah. They're badly designd.
I think overall Souls games have amazing design, but there are also some parts which are very, very lacklusting. For example, any kind of platforming has no place in these games with how poorly the character controls. I also don't like that not all builds are viable, like when I make a parry-centric build and then half of the enemies and bosses can't be parried just because. But to me, the worst of all is the esoteric quest, item and hidden mechanic design and conveyance. It's absolutely impossible to complete 50% of the quests of any Souls game without a guide. You have NPCs popping in different places of the map randomly, but it you picked a flower in the main path then the NPC will disappear forever and the quest will fail. It's like in Bayonetta 1 where you have to advance to trigger a hidden mission at the start of the level, but if you go forward 2 steps instead of one then a cutscene triggers and you can't go back to the start of the level anymore. Same with the items, with designs that give you no clue to their utility and descriptions that are functionally useless: "Kiss the finger to unfurl your clairvoyance". Even after using the item you won't be able to understand what it does most of the times. Or the icons that pop over your health bar that are impossible to interpret. The UI overall is shit.
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
There’s some worth to your argument, but you destroyed it with the Master Key thing.
The Master Key is supposed to be an item for experienced players that want to sequence skip and do stuff a beginner won’t be able to do. Nothing bad in that. Other games would have one such item as a New Game + reward. Dark Souls just trusts you to understand its implications.
On the other hand, people making Soul Level 1, naked-character runs are not making an effective counter argument. The fact that those feats are possible doesn’t mean anything. People have learned to do such things in games that have terrible design and that play much worse than Souls. OP is about your first experience with the games.
And he’s not completely wrong there. Take the bridge in 1-2 in Demon’s Souls. Yes, there’s charred corpses on it. And? There’s dead bodies everywhere in the game, and what killed them isn’t necessarily close to them every time. Why would the charred corpses make you think that the dragon that burned them is endlessly swooping overhead to do the same to you? Just because you passed another such bridge in 1-1? That’s not very solid logic. And you have even less of a clue in Dark Souls, after the Taurus Demon and Solaire. Absolutely nothing makes you suspect that that long, empty bridge is where a fucking dragon will ambush you from above and behind.
And those were the first Souls games. Design choices have become more and more questionable as the series progressed. Elden Ring never shies away from plunging into abysmal design decisions when the devs apparently just wanted to give players a big, fat “fuck you” and call it a day. The fact that a pro player can beat the cheapest challenges naked doesn’t mean that those challenges are well designed.
The Master Key is supposed to be an item for experienced players that want to sequence skip and do stuff a beginner won’t be able to do. Nothing bad in that. Other games would have one such item as a New Game + reward. Dark Souls just trusts you to understand its implications.
On the other hand, people making Soul Level 1, naked-character runs are not making an effective counter argument. The fact that those feats are possible doesn’t mean anything. People have learned to do such things in games that have terrible design and that play much worse than Souls. OP is about your first experience with the games.
And he’s not completely wrong there. Take the bridge in 1-2 in Demon’s Souls. Yes, there’s charred corpses on it. And? There’s dead bodies everywhere in the game, and what killed them isn’t necessarily close to them every time. Why would the charred corpses make you think that the dragon that burned them is endlessly swooping overhead to do the same to you? Just because you passed another such bridge in 1-1? That’s not very solid logic. And you have even less of a clue in Dark Souls, after the Taurus Demon and Solaire. Absolutely nothing makes you suspect that that long, empty bridge is where a fucking dragon will ambush you from above and behind.
And those were the first Souls games. Design choices have become more and more questionable as the series progressed. Elden Ring never shies away from plunging into abysmal design decisions when the devs apparently just wanted to give players a big, fat “fuck you” and call it a day. The fact that a pro player can beat the cheapest challenges naked doesn’t mean that those challenges are well designed.
Generic
Member
Yes, the rules presented by the map are consistent.You are right, OP.
This is awesome game design.
Fahdis
Member
Bro who posted pic didn't realize that 99% of the stuff is optional minus the mission marker.
MMaRsu
Member
How about using your brain?
The game gives you options, it's up to you how and if you want to tackle them.
Giving the player options isn't bad design.
Just because you are probably bad at the game, doesn't mean it's bad game design.
Why? There is a checkpoint right past the boss?
Once again, the game gives you options. You don't have to do the second world (yet)
OPTIONS BAD LINEAR GAME GOOD
existensmaximum
Member
Dark Souls 2 has shit design, yes. All other games have amazing design, and there's that.
The Cockatrice
Member
Who told you this? Did you come up with this definition? Souls games were never designed to be self sufficient or organically discoverable. They were always designed to be as obtuse as possible for better or worse, from lore to exploration, which makes your entire post a bit redundant.
FalconPunch
Member
You’ll catch a lot of flak but you’re 100% right. I’d also add that they’re one of the unfairly designed games. They hide enemies in corners, spam bosses with unbelievable moves that most cannot react to until you learn their attack patterns, etc.
I’ll go ahead and just say it, Souls fans are the biggest omega cucks of all time. Anytime a soul fan tells you to get good, what he really means is: “play the game a bunch of times and die a lot so that you can memorize all the cheap moves. When your asshole has been pounded enough to force you to learn all the possible cheap combos and enemy placements, then you can get a sense of accomplishment by beating the game”.
Souls games have absolutely nothing to do with skill and have everything to do with pattern recognition/memorization. The game is tedious af and then if you knew all the patterns before hand, it wouldn’t even be fun or challenging to play. As it stands, it’s barely fun. There’s a difference between handholding and bad design and all from soft games apart from Sekiro are just trash design. Elden ring being the worst with the most boring open world after Breath of the wild. Even Ubisoft open worlds aren’t that boring.
Cry more Souls fans, don’t @ me.
I’ll go ahead and just say it, Souls fans are the biggest omega cucks of all time. Anytime a soul fan tells you to get good, what he really means is: “play the game a bunch of times and die a lot so that you can memorize all the cheap moves. When your asshole has been pounded enough to force you to learn all the possible cheap combos and enemy placements, then you can get a sense of accomplishment by beating the game”.
Souls games have absolutely nothing to do with skill and have everything to do with pattern recognition/memorization. The game is tedious af and then if you knew all the patterns before hand, it wouldn’t even be fun or challenging to play. As it stands, it’s barely fun. There’s a difference between handholding and bad design and all from soft games apart from Sekiro are just trash design. Elden ring being the worst with the most boring open world after Breath of the wild. Even Ubisoft open worlds aren’t that boring.
Cry more Souls fans, don’t @ me.
Cyberpunkd
Gold Member
Well, can't you tell the difference between early enemies hitting you a few times and the enemies in the other area one-shotting you and taking little to no damage from your weapon? These enemies are not the same.
Team Andromeda
Member
Souls games just aren't fun and also From software engine is seriously outdated. I miss the old From software when they made games that were fun and how the most amazing graphics seen on consoles like with O.TO.GI series
Wildebeest
Member
No such thing as correctly designed. Game design is a language that is negotiated between the game and player. There shouldn't really be a shortcut to this in game, but I suppose guides or watching other people play can help.
OP in Demon's Souls you don't have to jump between first parts of the worlds. I did as you and went through the first world start to finish. It was hard but doable, which is kind of the the whole selling point with the souls games. Also by doing so, you're quite leveled up and the next areas are much more of a breeze.
In terms of level design and combat there are few games that do it better. In terms of any form of narrative or explanation to understand what leveling up stats will do, that's a whole other question
In terms of level design and combat there are few games that do it better. In terms of any form of narrative or explanation to understand what leveling up stats will do, that's a whole other question
Bartski
Gold Member
I think something got lost when moving away from the complicated upgrade system from Demon's Souls and and Dark Souls 1 over the single material type approach of later games, being the value of commitment. Same goes for respec - I hope some form of additional rare materials and permanent stat choices will return in their future games
captainnapalm
Member
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Stopped reading here. Learn to play videogames.
TerribleAtThisGame
Member
All the stats etc. have descriptions if you follow directions and manage to hit the correct button.
I put 250 hours into Dark Souls in offline mode and without guides when I was barely playing games. It was fucking amazing to have to figure out everything on my own, exactly what some people wanted from gaming at the time.
I put 250 hours into Dark Souls in offline mode and without guides when I was barely playing games. It was fucking amazing to have to figure out everything on my own, exactly what some people wanted from gaming at the time.
This morning's post creator - "I'm kind of bored, need to go piss off Neogaf"
But seriously, any game is a matter of taste. Every game doesn't have to be liked by every person, we are all different and have different tastes, it's just that Souls games are not your genre and there's nothing wrong with that, there are always other games that you'll like more, and no one is forcing you to play them.
But seriously, any game is a matter of taste. Every game doesn't have to be liked by every person, we are all different and have different tastes, it's just that Souls games are not your genre and there's nothing wrong with that, there are always other games that you'll like more, and no one is forcing you to play them.
TrebleShot
Member
Your absolutely right and pathetic nerds will literally shit themselves before they agree with you.
Play the game how you want.
I used a rough world order guide and cheesed alot of the bosses especially the last one and demons souls is one of my favourite games this gen because guess what...I don't enjoy wasting my time.
These games could do with a guided mode or something to drop hints as to what to do or go next. Nothing like yellow paint or ubimarkers but aine of dialogue or item after beating a boss or area would be nice and the game making it clear that there may be hints what to do next from characters and items.
In general I'd say the souls like genre is tired and over done and only from has really mastered it. Even then I'd like a spin on it from them that is a mode or whatever that makes it more accessible for those of us who really don't care about strangers opinions on the Internet about getting good or the purity experience and just want to enjoy the lore atmosphere and have a sense of progression each time we sit for 30 mins to play.
Play the game how you want.
I used a rough world order guide and cheesed alot of the bosses especially the last one and demons souls is one of my favourite games this gen because guess what...I don't enjoy wasting my time.
These games could do with a guided mode or something to drop hints as to what to do or go next. Nothing like yellow paint or ubimarkers but aine of dialogue or item after beating a boss or area would be nice and the game making it clear that there may be hints what to do next from characters and items.
In general I'd say the souls like genre is tired and over done and only from has really mastered it. Even then I'd like a spin on it from them that is a mode or whatever that makes it more accessible for those of us who really don't care about strangers opinions on the Internet about getting good or the purity experience and just want to enjoy the lore atmosphere and have a sense of progression each time we sit for 30 mins to play.
Mephisto40
Member
This is like saying Dungeons and Dragons is a badly designed tabletop game because the dungeon master doesn't tell you exactly what to do at all times
thefool
Member
You're not entirely wrong in the sense that these games don't convey information very clearly which is what makes their games particularity hard in the beginning. That sense of knowing you're on the wrong track but have no idea what you are actually doing wrong can make it incredibly frustrating. I also agree the classes in the beginning and the (mostly) shit items you get give you a false sense of direction.
On the other hand, all that gargantuan information can be reduced to "upgrade your health and stamina" to let you get the hang of it.
In what way? If there's a game that minimizes what OP describes is DS2. You don't have that many options in the beginning and past a certain point you can pretty much go anywhere, the areas are nowhere near as limited by our soul level than other games.
On the other hand, all that gargantuan information can be reduced to "upgrade your health and stamina" to let you get the hang of it.
In what way? If there's a game that minimizes what OP describes is DS2. You don't have that many options in the beginning and past a certain point you can pretty much go anywhere, the areas are nowhere near as limited by our soul level than other games.
Last edited:
Frexerik88
Neo Member
They have a high barrier of entry, but these games are the most engaging games you will ever play once they "click".
No stupid dialogue and shitty exposition dumps, just straight into the game.
No stupid dialogue and shitty exposition dumps, just straight into the game.
Bernardougf
Member
Yeah I agree... anyone saying they did all games 100% platinum without ever looking at a guide its just lying for the sake of boasting... you got items that complete quests and key things to do when trying for one specific ending that theres is no fcking way you can know about without some explanation and the "messages" left by the community can only point so far. And the NPCs that you have to make a specifc gesture or put some clothes for progress his quest.. nah.. no way.
BbMajor7th
Member
Design is relative. The things you're complaining about are an intentional part of the design. Souls games aren't intended to work like a theme park where you're naturally guided from one section to the next and each area is clearly sign-posted with height restrictions and directions. It's fully intended that you'll get lost, learn by trial and error, and die during the process. This design works hand-in-hand with the game's atmosphere, lore and enemy encounters to create a sense of foreboding, hopelessness, and insignificance which is germane to the game's appeal: victory feels earned. You're not a superhero, or a demi-god, or a decorated combat veteran, you're a complete dreg with a snapped sword and tattered armor and your success relies on determination, skill, and ingenuity.
That's not bad design, it's masterclass design. Like a good mentor, it encourages you to learn by doing, doesn't attempt to guard you from mistakes and rewards curiosity, experimentation and attentiveness.
That's not bad design, it's masterclass design. Like a good mentor, it encourages you to learn by doing, doesn't attempt to guard you from mistakes and rewards curiosity, experimentation and attentiveness.
The only issue I have (currently playing very slowly thru ER, I've just reached the snowy mountain area) is the lack of clarity on resistances.
Some enemies are vaguely obvious on what they are vulnerable (and vice versa) to, while some aren't. Some are utterly perplexing though and after consulting the wiki I don't understand why they are, or aren't vulnerable to a certain resistance.
Holy on certain undead is one of the major ones. I learnt early that holy utterly decimates the big dead bird creatures. But, weirdly does nowt to the boatmen.and other clearly undead enemies/bosses. This is a huge oversight imo. I shouldn't need to consult a wiki on every enemy's resistance once the game starts to introduce them to me. It should be organic.
I also have a mild issue with some of the quest chains having the most vague signposting ever, but on the other hand I enjoy others as they make you listen to NPCs/read things. Problem is you lose track of certain ones as more open up. Especially if you aren't playing consistently.
Gameplay wise, I love them though.
Some enemies are vaguely obvious on what they are vulnerable (and vice versa) to, while some aren't. Some are utterly perplexing though and after consulting the wiki I don't understand why they are, or aren't vulnerable to a certain resistance.
Holy on certain undead is one of the major ones. I learnt early that holy utterly decimates the big dead bird creatures. But, weirdly does nowt to the boatmen.and other clearly undead enemies/bosses. This is a huge oversight imo. I shouldn't need to consult a wiki on every enemy's resistance once the game starts to introduce them to me. It should be organic.
I also have a mild issue with some of the quest chains having the most vague signposting ever, but on the other hand I enjoy others as they make you listen to NPCs/read things. Problem is you lose track of certain ones as more open up. Especially if you aren't playing consistently.
Gameplay wise, I love them though.
DarthPutin
Member
I don't think their attraction is in being "well-designed". Gamers at this point are like rich kids who have personal chiefs and go to Michelin restaurants, then on exotic trip they suddenly discover charred goat meat that is too stingy, burned on the side and so spicy it burns their mouth, then exclaim: Wow, this is so DIFFERENT, and CHALLENGING, the perfect meal, really!
Being hard to chew, weird and esoteric IS what makes the fans like them, with added Je ne sais quoi of being cooked on open fire by shaman muttering spells under the breath.
Being hard to chew, weird and esoteric IS what makes the fans like them, with added Je ne sais quoi of being cooked on open fire by shaman muttering spells under the breath.
Back in 2009, the hardest part of demon souls for me was actually optaining a copy, the game was out in japan and usa but would launch a year later in europa. What got me into the game and importing it from the usa was actually reading thru all the messages boards (like gamefaqs) on how the community was discovering this game, the secrets that were unfolding and not a single full guide available at that point in time about the game. It was quite something to behold where a player stuggled with certain enemies and another one finding out a 'cheap' trick or interresting strategy against them.
It was great to witness and when my copy finally arrived and getting obliterated by the demonboss in the tutorial level, (which was beatable and gave u some nice goodies if u did - and me trying it a million times until i did it.) i knew i had a special game in my hands. To be honest, i had a hard time playing ANY rpg after demon souls because none came close to its mechanics and i slowly started to realise how bad some western rpgs really were (but thats a personal feeling)
But remember it was 2009 and i cannot recall anyone playing Demon Souls calling it badly designed or too hard, begging to have an easy-mode option and all kind of handholding map markers. there was a community actively helping eachother thru messageboards and summoning eachother into the game.
Now fast forward to 2024 and behold: the souls games are incredibly big and have a huge audience. There are fans and longtime players of the series. But it also brought a shitload of people that call the series 'boring', or too hard, needs easy mode, or call it badly designed while everything they do in the games is their own bad choices and habits learned from other (rpg) games that dont require a brain... and start crying the game doesnt do what THEY want, and more annoyingly tbh, cry about it on messageboards how bad it is. Demon Souls is a friggin masterclass on game-design and reading some of the hot takes 15 years later on this game is quite hilarious.
It was great to witness and when my copy finally arrived and getting obliterated by the demonboss in the tutorial level, (which was beatable and gave u some nice goodies if u did - and me trying it a million times until i did it.) i knew i had a special game in my hands. To be honest, i had a hard time playing ANY rpg after demon souls because none came close to its mechanics and i slowly started to realise how bad some western rpgs really were (but thats a personal feeling)
But remember it was 2009 and i cannot recall anyone playing Demon Souls calling it badly designed or too hard, begging to have an easy-mode option and all kind of handholding map markers. there was a community actively helping eachother thru messageboards and summoning eachother into the game.
Now fast forward to 2024 and behold: the souls games are incredibly big and have a huge audience. There are fans and longtime players of the series. But it also brought a shitload of people that call the series 'boring', or too hard, needs easy mode, or call it badly designed while everything they do in the games is their own bad choices and habits learned from other (rpg) games that dont require a brain... and start crying the game doesnt do what THEY want, and more annoyingly tbh, cry about it on messageboards how bad it is. Demon Souls is a friggin masterclass on game-design and reading some of the hot takes 15 years later on this game is quite hilarious.
missiles
Gold Member
I think it's beautiful that Quelaag could realistically be the first boss you face. Amazing design.
jzbadblood
Neo Member
I played Demon's Souls on PS3 when it first came out. Was at the midnight launch at Walmart for Dark Souls. Dark Souls 2 release day. Pre-ordered Bloodborne, Sekiro, Elden Ring,
I've never finished any of these. I like the gameplay of these games, but I get bored about 75% of the way through and never get back to them. Some kind of problem with me. I enjoy the time I spend with them and move on.
I've never finished any of these. I like the gameplay of these games, but I get bored about 75% of the way through and never get back to them. Some kind of problem with me. I enjoy the time I spend with them and move on.
I get what you're saying but I don't think it's really applicable in this case. Having a meal that's difficult to eat or objectively worse in many regards doesn't actually make its flavor better just because it's something different from the usual food people are bored of. It's the experience and novelty that makes it better in that case.
However, I don't believe that applies to the souls games because I genuinely believe the "flavor" of those games is amazing. If someone enjoys blind exploration in a fantasy setting along with challenges that are based on pattern recognition then the souls games are genuinely fun.
If you want to stick to food analogies then I think the divide in opinions is more akin to there being a group of people who always eat sweet food that's been puréed and are accustomed to that being the norm. These people are the anti-souls people.
When they finally try a savory steak that they have to chew(a souls game) they go, "Wow, this is absolutely terrible! It's not sweet at all and my jaw hurts! How could anyone enjoy this? If it was made sweeter and thrown in a blender then it might worth eating."
Then they might make a thread on forum saying steaks aren't well designed.
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yeah, demon souls was bullshit. Terrible design choices. One after another. Just fucking retarded.
World tendency stuff is just the cherry on top. Hey, you are doing. lets make things even more difficult.
There is a reason why they made Dark Souls and Bloodborne games linear. They realized that demon souls was retarded in that regard and fixed their issues. BB is literally perfect because its mostly a linear romp all the way till the end. level design perfection.
Dark souls 3 is peak souls design. it combines the linearity of bloodborne and offers the build variety of souls. Sekiro is excellent too. it's demon souls that is just full of stupid and bullshit things, but once you learn the game, you learn to appreciate that level design and choices they made. I love it now, but the first run was ridiculously frustrating and just not fun because i didnt go to youtube and try and learn the 'correct' way to play the game.
Elden Ring is basically Demon Souls on steroids. Gone are the meticulously crafted levels and guided campaign. Now you are free to go whereever you want and it just doesnt work for me.
World tendency stuff is just the cherry on top. Hey, you are doing. lets make things even more difficult.
There is a reason why they made Dark Souls and Bloodborne games linear. They realized that demon souls was retarded in that regard and fixed their issues. BB is literally perfect because its mostly a linear romp all the way till the end. level design perfection.
Dark souls 3 is peak souls design. it combines the linearity of bloodborne and offers the build variety of souls. Sekiro is excellent too. it's demon souls that is just full of stupid and bullshit things, but once you learn the game, you learn to appreciate that level design and choices they made. I love it now, but the first run was ridiculously frustrating and just not fun because i didnt go to youtube and try and learn the 'correct' way to play the game.
Elden Ring is basically Demon Souls on steroids. Gone are the meticulously crafted levels and guided campaign. Now you are free to go whereever you want and it just doesnt work for me.
NeverYouMind
Member
Wrong Miyazaki...miyazaki reading this post gonna be like :
BehemothBlade
Member
I like exploring dungeons and beating up monsters in them.
Similar threads
- Poll