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[Slayven]

Then enlighten me, because I'm behind then.

Palette swapping is just cheap and pandering. No one will except a black, Asian, female, etc character's story so lets just arbitrary change this well known character to get the credit of being diverse.

How about we make Thor a female. Diversity right?

They have several times. The only good time was Thor Gal.

 

[BannedEpisode]

How about we make Thor a female. Diversity right?

Female Thor is dope.

Difference is that male thor didn't disappear, the hammer changed hands. It's a plot development. Not a pallet swap.

 

[Nesotenso]

The only thing that bugs me about female Thor is that they are treating as if it is a title rather than the dude's name.

 

[RELIGHT]

The only thing that bugs me about female Thor is that they are treating as if it is a title rather than the dude's name.

That's my personal peeve about it too. Thor is his name it's not a mantel to be handed around. I would have preferred they hadn't reused the name. But you know, money and all...

 

[Slayven]

The only thing that bugs me about female Thor is that they are treating as if it is a title rather than the dude's name.

Did they ever say what Nick Fury told him that made him unworthy?

 

[Caboose]

Did they ever say what Nick Fury told him that made him unworthy?

Not yet.

 

[Cipherr]

A Scarlet Witch movie >>>> Danvers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Black Widow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>She Hulk.


The writers have failed to make Widow interesting to me outside of Cap 2. That may be 100% writers, or maybe a portion of it is I feel ScarJo plays the part so damn Wooden, but in any case I would much rather have a SW movie. I find her character SUPER fucking interesting. Im hoping the Inhumans movie stars the twins.

 

[BronsonLee]

Did they ever say what Nick Fury told him that made him unworthy?

Once you go black, you can't go back

Spoiler

to Asgard

 

[RELIGHT]

Did they ever say what Nick Fury told him that made him unworthy?

 

[richiek]

I'd just like to point out that Anaron has somehow derailed what I'm assuming to be hundreds of MCU threads over this argument for a Black Widow movie, and the fact that they were able to succeed in the fucking Spider-Man to MCU thread is absolutely hilarious to me.

They had a movie, they didn't like it and went with Guardians instead. Guardians did gangbusters to the surprise of many. It was a good bet.

Not to mention the fact that it was Nicole Perlman who wanted to write the screenplay for Guardians over Black Widow which is what Marvel wanted.

 

[Slayven]

Once you go black, you can't go back

Spoiler

to Asgard

 

[ezekial45]

A Scarlet Witch movie >>>> Danvers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Black Widow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>She Hulk.


The writers have failed to make Widow interesting to me outside of Cap 2. That may be 100% writers, or maybe a portion of it is I feel ScarJo plays the part so damn Wooden, but in any case I would much rather have a SW movie. I find her character SUPER fucking interesting. Im hoping the Inhumans movie stars the twins.

I think she's great as a secondary character, but I wouldn't really be interested in seeing a movie based around her. I feel her story is adequately told well enough in the background of the other movies. She definitely needs to be around other heroes, IMO.

 

[Blader]

Notable yeah, but I rather eat glass then see a Rogue solo film, unless it involves Joseph/Magneto.

But a Monica Rambeau movie or series? Day freaking one.

Only if it's an animated Nextwave movie.

 

[BronsonLee]

Not to mention the fact that it was Nicole Perlman who wanted to write the screenplay for Guardians over Black Widow which is what Marvel wanted.

Exactly. If we want to blame anyone, blame Perlman for going rogue! Damn her! Damn her to hell!

An accurate goddamn image

...Of course you would have a comic book page to match my stupidity.

But yeah, Widow works well in Avengers movies because Joss can give her the spotlight and cover her backstory there. She wasn't there in Cap 2 to expand her story, she was there to join his buddy cop comedy!

 

[PsychBat!]

Female Thor is dope.

Difference is that male thor didn't disappear, the hammer changed hands. It's a plot development. Not a pallet swap.

The fact that it's a plot development and not pandering was what made me interested in her in the first place (not to mention that Jason Aaron writing it also drew me in).

Now that I have read this new Thor so far, it's awesome, new Thor is awesome, Thor is awesome, I love it.
That being said, the Thor title/name thing still bugs me.

 

[Byakuya769]

I don't get it.

 

[Slayven]

I don't get it.

THor gave her that good good, and gods of the similar domains can't fuck because shit goes down.

 

[BlackNMild2k1]

Sorry to derail the discussion on things not Spider-Man, but has anyone discussed how Marvel well handle the origin on Spider-Man in the MCU yet?

Are we expecting a montage at the beginning of his solo film? Like a history lesson during opening credits.

Possibly a quick moment as a post credit scene? Like some kid that was saved (part of a school field trip) earlier in a movie walking into what is now revealed to be the Oscorp building, wandering off his tour, his guide stopping to see if anyone knows where the other kid went, "had anyone seen... um... :: looks at log sheet::... Mr. Parker!?"
Cut back to kid in an unsupervised lab filled with spiders and him getting dangerously close to one. Then the scene ends and the final credits roll.

Or maybe it will be an opportunity for Marvel to bring back the One Shot with - Along Came A Spider. Do a quick 5-8 minute origin story that ties Peter firmly into the MCU for all those that just want more story. This way Marvel gets to have an official version that they can reference back to is they need to, without actually having to cover it in the solo movie..... Or even throw the One Shot into the pre-movie trailers as a bonus for audiences, like a Pixar short before the movie.

 

[anaron]

I'd just like to point out that Anaron has somehow derailed what I'm assuming to be hundreds of MCU threads over this argument for a Black Widow movie, and the fact that they were able to succeed in the fucking Spider-Man to MCU thread is absolutely hilarious to me.

They had a movie, they didn't like it and went with Guardians instead. Guardians did gangbusters to the surprise of many. It was a good bet.

oh fuck off.

seriously though, why cant I discuss something about the MCU in an 84 page thread when what I posted was regarding those exact two properties?

I have yet to go into the GotG, ant man, cap 3 thread or any of the TV threads whining about this stuff because it doesn't belong there. these types of threads should warrant exploration and debates of how these things affect the bigger plans/films at large, regardless of what kind of tumblr-ey annoyance I apparently appear to come off as. at least I'm facilitating a new conversation.

 

[RELIGHT]

oh fuck off.

seriously though, why cant I discuss something about the MCU in an 84 page thread when what I posted was regarding those exact two properties?

I have yet to go into the GotG, ant man, cap 3 thread or any of the TV threads whining about this stuff because it doesn't belong there. these types of threads should warrant exploration and debates of how these things affect the bigger ideas at large ,

regardless of what kind of tumblr-ey annoyance I appear to come off as, at least I'm facilitating a new conversation.

No, it pretty much has derailed and I got sucked into it as well. This is a Spiderman thread that we've turned into a diversity in marvel movies thread.

 

[BronsonLee]

oh fuck off.

seriously though, why cant I discuss something about the MCU in an 84 page thread when what I posted was regarding those exact two properties?

Lol man, I'm just impressed that your tenacity and ferocity was enough to derail probably the biggest MCU thread since the Phase 3 announcement thread

 

[DonasaurusRex]

All I will say is there are literally a stadium full of female characters that deserve a film before Carol. More if I count aliens and non humans.

How many do marvel have a license to? I always thought they would do Capt Marvel as a team addition but i think recently her last two vol's have been pretty good.

I want Rambeau, She Hulk, im getting Jessica Jones, and Misty Knight is beastmode, her and Colleen in a duo action movie for Heroes for Hire would be cool. Who would you put before Carol on earth?

 

[Dragonborn]

Ugh, a Black Widow stand alone film would bomb hard, unless it had other heroes to prop it up. Black Widow may be an interesting characters in the comics, but ScarJo's BW is just awful, boring, and uninteresting. I don't know if it's the direction, the actress, or the script, but it's one of the lower points in these films. Maybe that'll change with Age of Ultron, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for now.

 

[anaron]

No, it pretty much has derailed and I got sucked into it as well. This is a Spiderman thread that we've turned into a diversity in marvel movies thread.

well considering that his inclusion pushed back two very notable first of their kind films in the MCU and numerous others have illustrated their annoyance at that throughout this thread, I'd say the topic pretty comfortably belongs here.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

People pushing for a Black Widow movie are like the people who give out raisins or toothbrushes on halloween. I'm sure they can justify it, but they miss the whole point.

In a universe known and loved for being filled to the brim with outlandish costumed beings and impossible powers trying to foist a Scarlet Johansson spy flick seems cruel.

But I'd be down for Black Widow movie if she was played by Samuel L Jackson. Same for that aunt May movie idea that was kicking around.

 

[Fancy Clown]

thats spidermans theme? Im sure thats news to Steve Ditko

Most of his best villains, and himself, are results of science gone awry. I prefer the more "grounded" take on the villains, and alien and cosmic stuff (while theoretically no less "sciencey" then anything else, feel too large scale and out there for one of the more relatable super heroes).

I'm not talking about the "great power, great responsibility" theme theme, but like how Batman's best villains are varying degrees of psychological disorders, I like how Spiderman's villains represent varying scientific tampering that results in a villain. The alien coming out of nowhere, or Spider-Man going into space, feel at odds with Venom's personality and threat to Peter. The cancer suit feels more in line with the greats of the series, and allows for the creation of a much more personal connection to Peter.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

I think it is just a waiting game, they will get tired of palette swapping and eventually want to do minority characters. That is why I am praying Jones, Cage, and Black Panther do well.

And as long as comic characters escape the Thunderball trap I will be good.

When you see these dudes in other media, you'll know anything goes

 

[anaron]

Lol man, I'm just impressed that your tenacity and ferocity was enough to derail probably the biggest MCU thread since the Phase 3 announcement thread

well I definitely don't wanna be *that guy* who is appearing almost troll-like by inserting something into everything and anything cuz even I can find it overkill and exhausting

I just think the politics surrounding the issue are depressing and intriguing because I find the reasoning used against her to be very suspect and contradictory

(I also clearly love natasha. )

 

[BronsonLee]

Ugh, a Black Widow stand alone film would bomb hard, unless it had other heroes to prop it up. Black Widow may be an interesting characters in the comics, but ScarJo's BW is just awful, boring, and uninteresting. I don't know if it's the direction, the actress, or the script, but it's one of the lower points in these films. Maybe that'll change with Age of Ultron, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for now.

Ehhhh, I don't know about that. Lucy did ridiculous numbers (especially since it was rated R and a female starring action film). What was it, 450 mil against a 40 mil budget, or something?

Combine that with Marvel's good track record recently and you could get something going there.

well I definitely don't wanna be *that guy* who is appearing almost troll-like by inserting something into everything and anything cuz even I can find it overkill.

I just think the politics surrounding the issue are depressing and intriguing

Is it -really- politics though? They were going to do one, but they chose Guardians instead. That's all.

I mean, I get why you brought it up at first, but the argument's been had, man.

 

[Dragonborn]

well considering that his inclusion pushed back two very notable first of their kind films in the MCU and numerous others have illustrated their annoyance at that throughout this thread, I'd say the topic pretty comfortably belongs here.

It's Spider-Man. The biggest superhero in the world. Marvel and the Mouse would have moved heaven and Earth for it and for very good reason. I'm looking forward to Black Panther and CM, but I'll be damned if a new Spidey film (and more importantly, Spidey in the MCU) is a much, much bigger hype moment.

Ehhhh, I don't know about that. Lucy did ridiculous numbers (especially since it was rated R and a female starring action film). What was it, 450 mil against a 40 mil budget, or something?

Combine that with Marvel's good track record recently and you could get something going there.

I suppose. I certainly wouldn't watch it though (maybe if it had Cap and Iron Man in it). At least, not as of now (waiting to see how BW does in Age of Ultron)

 

[Blader]

Ugh, a Black Widow stand alone film would bomb hard, unless it had other heroes to prop it up. Black Widow may be an interesting characters in the comics, but ScarJo's BW is just awful, boring, and uninteresting. I don't know if it's the direction, the actress, or the script, but it's one of the lower points in these films. Maybe that'll change with Age of Ultron, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for now.

It absolutely wouldn't bomb, both Marvel and Scarlett are incredibly bankable.

well I definitely don't wanna be *that guy* who is appearing almost troll-like by inserting something into everything and anything cuz even I can find it overkill and exhausting

I just think the politics surrounding the issue are depressing and intriguing because I find the reasoning used against her to be very suspect and contradictory

uhh, the reasoning seems to run the gamut of not thinking she's a big/interesting enough character to carry her own movie to not liking Scarlett in the role. What is suspect or contradictory about any of that? Absolutely no one, Marvel included, is against the idea because they don't want a female-led superhero movie.

 

[Slayven]

How many do marvel have a license to? I always thought they would do Capt Marvel as a team addition but i think recently her last two vol's have been pretty good.

I want Rambeau, She Hulk, im getting Jessica Jones, and Misty Knight is beastmode, her and Colleen in a duo action movie for Heroes for Hire would be cool. Who would you put before Carol on earth?

Other than Deathcry(no shade, no shade), Marvel should have them all.


Jennifer Kale, Strange don't have to have the monopoly on magic

White Tiger, the previous one. Don't like the current one for some reason.

Andromeda, a literal fish out of water story would be great

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Most of his best villains, and himself, are results of science gone awry. I prefer the more "grounded" take on the villains, and alien and cosmic stuff (while theoretically no less "sciencey" then anything else, feel too large scale and out there for one of the more relatable super heroes).

I'm not talking about the "great power, great responsibility" theme theme, but like how Batman's best villains are varying degrees of psychological disorders, I like how Spiderman's villains represent varying scientific tampering that results in a villain. The alien coming out of nowhere, or Spider-Man going into space, feel at odds with Venom's personality and threat to Peter. The cancer suit feels more in line with the greats of the series, and allows for the creation of a much more personal connection to Peter.

I think its an issue of their character gone wrong

Fisk is ruthless and lack morals
Doc Ock is a covetous egomaniac
Osborn is batshit
Hobgoblin has for the most part been greedy and an asshole there are many
Vulture a self serving prick
Carnage a murderer
Venom /Symbiote was controlling and lacked morals
Kraven was batshit, deadbeat dad, and put the activity of hunting over everything.

it doesn't matter if you change the origin and gut the characters it will be shit *see xmen films ...all of them* Venom can be a grounded cancer suit or a symbiote , who cares even in teh comics if they went with Venom being a 24hr combat suit. That would be fine but without Thompson having to be wary of the effects of going past the time limit , the symbiote is nothing. The origin , i dont think anyone will care if its a suit...though it wont make a damn bit of sense if it can start doing some of the things the symbiote does in the popular comics run. It will have to be adjusted...and i dont think we will see a secret wars type origin either.

 

[anaron]

It absolutely wouldn't bomb, both Marvel and Scarlett are incredibly bankable.



uhh, the reasoning seems to run the gamut of not thinking she's a big/interesting enough character to carry her own movie to not liking Scarlett in the role. What is suspect or contradictory about any of that? Absolutely no one, Marvel included, is against the idea because they don't want a female-led superhero movie.

except people are STILL constantly asking for her own film, so I'm not sure where this "no one likes BW" thing is coming from. the character is increasingly more popular with each film and what I find suspect is that the excuse for not giving her her own solo has always been flimsy and ever changing: it started off as "she's more of a support character" to "if the fans keep asking for it!" to then later Feige saying "I'm not sure we'd get credit for it if we did her first" which was just dumb and weird.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Other than Deathcry(no shade, no shade), Marvel should have them all.


Jennifer Kale, Strange don't have to have the monopoly on magic


White Tiger, the previous one. Don't like the current one for some reason.


Andromeda, a literal fish out of water story would be great

White Tiger, Misty Knight, Colleen Wing trio action movie! You like the first White Tiger? she would fit right in.

and Namora + Andromeda with Namorita being born sci fi action flick. They both have surface world stories like you said so we dont have to budget up for a big underwater story.



I would assume the other lady will show up at some point with Dr Strange on its way.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Jennifer Kale, Strange don't have to have the monopoly on magic

I wonder what scene that was traced from...

 

[Blader]

except people are STILL constantly asking for her own film, so I'm not sure where this "no one likes BW" thing is coming from. the character is increasingly more popular with each film and what I find suspect is that the excuse for not giving her her own solo has always been flimsy and ever changing: it started off as "she's more of a support character" to "if the fans keep asking for it!" to then later Feige saying "I'm not sure we'd get credit for it if we did her first" which was just dumb and weird.

Not from my post? For someone complaining about other people putting words in your mouth, you're doing an awful lot of it.

Other people can want a Black Widow movie as much as they want, that doesn't make Marvel suddenly want it, which is all that I said. As was already posted at the top of this page, they did have a script for a Black Widow movie but passed on it. They're not interested. It doesn't expand the brand the way Captain Marvel does, they view her as more of a supporting character like Hulk and Hawkeye, and probably don't want to pay out the huge salary bump that a BW solo movie would call for.

And also, it's probably worth backtracking to your initial complaint, which was that Marvel was willing to move the schedule around for Spider-Man but not Widow -- which isn't true. The issue with a Widow movie not going forward never had anything to do with Marvel committing to other movies first and everything to do with that they don't see a solo Widow movie as necessary for their bigger plans. Captain Marvel, yes; Spider-Man, yes; Black Widow, apparently not.

 

[BLACKLAC]

This.

Also I'm getting tired of this gender and race pandering. Seriously, why even make that an argument? Black widow should get a movie because.....woman? Like wtf! I feel like it's the same crowd all over YouTube saying, "we've had enough white men as superheroes! Spidey should now be Miles Morales in the MCU!" It's a god awful race gender baiting argument and this shit needs to stop. You know what's so funny about that argument though, is that it's largely white men and women making it. I havent seen any non whites asking for Miles Morlaes as spidey in civil war.

I guess its about time we have a white kid from the Hamptons as Blade and we definitely need a solo Catwoman movie. Oh wait...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwgNh3tKXjE

 

[anaron]

Not from my post? For someone complaining about other people putting words in your mouth, you're doing an awful lot of it.

Other people can want a Black Widow movie as much as they want, that doesn't make Marvel suddenly want it, which is all that I said. As was already posted at the top of this page, they did have a script for a Black Widow movie but passed on it. They're not interested. It doesn't expand the brand the way Captain Marvel does, they view her as more of a supporting character like Hulk and Hawkeye, and probably don't want to pay out the huge salary bump that a BW solo movie would call for.

And also, it's probably worth backtracking to your initial complaint, which was that Marvel was willing to move the schedule around for Spider-Man but not Widow -- which isn't true. The issue with a Widow movie not going forward never had anything to do with Marvel committing to other movies first and everything to do with that they don't see a solo Widow movie as necessary for their bigger plans. Captain Marvel, yes; Spider-Man, yes; Black Widow, apparently not.

except how was Spider Man necessary for their their bigger plans if until late last year/this Febuary there was no guarantee whatsoever he was ever going to be leased to them?

and I'm not intentionally putting words in your mouth or outright ignoring the very points you made like weaponx was doing, I misread this quote: "uhh, the reasoning seems to run the gamut of not thinking she's a big/interesting enough character to carry her own movie to not liking Scarlett in the role"
as you saying it was the audience's reasoning as opposed to Marvel's.

and oh look I owned up to my mistake, too!

 

[BLACKLAC]

Personally I'm not too muffed about BW not getting a solo (at this point). She has had great character development in the MCU as a supporting character. Especially with Hawkguy and Ruffalo Hulk not getting a solo (at this point). Would it be cool? Yup but Marvel doesn't have infinite resources and they are focused on building the universe right now.

I also want Peter Parker Spider-man for the same reason I want Captain Marvel instead of Ms. Marvel.

 

[BronsonLee]

Yeah let's bring this back full circle to Spidey by stating that Spider-Man is more important to Marvel than Black Widow is, because Spider-Man makes hundreds of millions of dollars in merchandise and currently, she does not (at least not on her own).

They were -always- going to want him, and -always- going to move heaven and earth to get him.

 

[AgentChris]

Spider-Man aka #1

 

[Sephzilla]

Yeah let's bring this back full circle to Spidey by stating that Spider-Man is more important to Marvel than Black Widow is, because Spider-Man makes hundreds of millions of dollars in merchandise and currently, she does not (at least not on her own).

They were -always- going to want him, and -always- going to move heaven and earth to get him.

Yep.

Basically imagine if WB/DC licensed Batman out to another studio and couldn't use Batman in any of their current DCCU movies. Then they struck a deal to be able to make a Batman DCCU movie. All of DC's plans would shift to make room for Batman.

Spider-Man is Batman.

 

[Voror]

I imagine there's been discussion about this here already, but I thought I'd bring up the question of who to have as a villain for the movie. I think it's important that it not be someone we've already seen (Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Electro, etc.). I'd be open to them perhaps introducing Norman, but without having him become the Goblin quite yet.

I've seen Mysterio recommended and I think he could actually work out pretty well since you could probably do some interesting things with his illusion capabilities. I also read that he's used gas which can cause hallucinations, which could be a possible way to highlight the origin if Peter started seeing Uncle Ben and all that.

 

[Manmademan]

That's my personal peeve about it too. Thor is his name it's not a mantel to be handed around. I would have preferred they hadn't reused the name. But you know, money and all...

To be fair, "Thor" as a mantle to be handed around isn't a recent thing. Eric Masterson ran around also calling himself "Thor" when he got the hammer.

 

[Slayven]

I wonder what scene that was traced from...

Looking for some new porn?

 

[BlackNMild2k1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwgNh3tKXjE

Very well put. Hopefully those that complain of the very issue now understand why white washing is a much bigger issue than color blinding.

 

[guek]

Marvel meeting a hypothetical diversity quota does not hinge on the existence of a black widow movie (or a black spider-man for that matter)

We have black panther and captain marvel movies in the making.

We have a Jessica Jones show filming right now

Falcon and War Machine in the MCU

An Asian Hogun the Grim

A black Heimdal

Another tv show with two female leads of Asian descent

Could we please stop talking about Marvel and their supposed lack of diversity?

 

[WanderingWind]

It's like telling a second date, "I'm not ready for marriage," then a in-her-prime ScarJo/Channing Tatum/insert your preference here asks you to marry. Shit changes based on circumstances.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Marvel meeting a hypothetical diversity quota does not hinge on the existence of a black widow movie (or a black spider-man for that matter)

We have black panther and captain marvel movies in the making.

We have a Jessica Jones show filming right now

Falcon and War Machine in the MCU

An Asian Hogun the Grim

A black Heimdal

Another tv show with two female leads of Asian descent

Could we please stop talking about Marvel and their supposed lack of diversity?

There are also a black and a asian actresses with bigger roles in Age of Ultron.