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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

Gotchaye

Member
I don't agree, with Kylo I could just imagine his back story just from the little tidbits we bot and his facial reactions.

In my head he must have grown up being told he was special while knowing inside he had this power, momma Leia was probably busy a lot of the time with Republic stuff and didn't have much time for him along with daddy Han. Still, they probably expected a lot from him especially with his powers. Han especially may have been a bit more harsh bringing him up since A) he knows what he was like at his age and B) knows that Vader's blood flows through his veins and doesn't want to see him go down the same path.

Eventually, they ship him off to train with Luke since they can't control or understand exactly what he is going through and while at first Ren may have resented this he may have also been thankful since he probably thought he would finally be able to be with someone who understood him and what he was going though while also allowing him to reach his full potential. However, Luke as a new Master probably treated Ren like the rest of the new students instead of his nephew or perhaps maybe even harder on Ren because he new his potential and lineage.

In turn, Ren probably grew resentful and impatient at his training, just like Luke was with Yoda, and perhaps even suspected that Luke was holding him back, scared of his power. Ultimately, he succumbs to his quest for power which he believes Luke is withholding from him and demonstrates that he is more powerful than the rest by killing all the other Jedi students before fleeing to the First Order permanently.

Huh, this is really not what I got out of it. It didn't seem to me like Kylo was primarily motivated by anger at his parents or Luke, or really anger at all. He's angry, sure, but I didn't think he was with TFO or out to kill Han because he was angry with Han specifically. The impression I got (granted, I just saw it once) is that killing Han was something he understood to be a necessary evil. He wasn't happy about killing Han. But he had to kill Han in order to become more truly Dark. He wants this because something something Vader - his hero worship of Vader is pretty strongly established. Is it just that he wants to be powerful? To what end? I don't buy "to show them all" because of his conflictedness about actually showing Han.

Edit: I don't think this is an idiosyncratic take on it. I've seen lots of people say they liked that Kylo is presented as "tempted" by the Light because he doesn't actually seem to want to kill his father and that his reasons for wanting to be Dark aren't just about hating people.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
^ The asian dude top right look like a samrai
star-wars-rogue-one-cast.jpg

I just realize that thanks to Rogue One we might see some OT Stormtroopers that aren't a bunch of shitters.
 

Ashhong

Member
You know after some thinking about it, I'm REALLY subscribing to the theory that Rey is a reincarnation or incarnation of Anakin Skywalker. It makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

Just watch the flashback sequence. All of those are memories. On Cloud City, hearing Obi-wan and Yoda. Those are the memories of Anakin Skywalker tapping in. Then it shifts to the destruction of the Jedi by the Knights of Ren, which is probably Rey's memories. Then we see a glimpse of Rey's encounter with Kylo Ren.

it's the Past, Present, and Future. It represents where that lightsaber has been and the history behind the person who used it. Luke never had a spiritual experience with it like Rey did, which suggests to me Rey has a direct connection to Anakin's saber unlike Luke ever did.

Her "awakening" could not only represent her awakening as a Force user, but awakening as an incarnation of Anakin Skywalker. She pretty much becomes a near master Jedi in the movie for this very reason, cause she's tapping into latent memories she inherited from a previous life.

"Near master Jedi" good grief..
 
The vision or Kylo killing someone is confirmed to be an event that occurred recently, not one Rey witnessed as a kid.

Really don't think Rey is anything more than the force awakening in someone/people because Luke has been staying away, and this is happening because the force is "balanced". Prior to the events of TFA, there is nothing at all about Rey that makes her tied to anything force-related or jedis. But now that it has awaken in her, she has a destiny to fulfill, the force chose her.




Anyone saying Rey used to be a force-user are forgetting she was 5 years old. Doesn't matter that jedis were supposedly once trained as kids, no way was Rey a powerful jedi as a kid. Plus the cut dialogue with Leia basically says the way things should work is for Rey to find Luke, not her to be sent to him like Leia did with Ben. Presumably: teaching people to be jedis = bad. Read that dialogue again, it basically spells out that there won't be any jedi academy stuff, that the whole "jedi order" thing was wrong, and probably ties in to how it breaks the balance of the force. For things to be "right", the force must manifest itself in people.

She remembers that she was five. If someone can alter or erase memories, then that doesn't mean much. We never see her parents, the ship looked like a first order dropship, and she just has this deep anxiety about leaving. That sounds like classical conditioning. Jakku could have been her prison and false memories and fears implanted in her mind weren't letting her leave.

I haven't read the novel, though.

I'm not saying I believe this, but it could be a cool twist, nonetheless.
 

SkyOdin

Member
I didn't mind Kylo as a wannabe Vader for most of the movie. I liked the idea of nobody on either side really knowing what the hell they were doing Force-wise. It was pretty obvious that he wasn't going to be disfigured at all
But all the tragic backstory they gesture at for Kylo really does not work for me. Maybe I'm just not convinced that Star Wars can tell a story about how someone goes Dark after the prequels, but I couldn't see what was weighing on the other side of the scale against Han's life. Or really any of it. ...

With Kylo, he's tempted to do "good" things like not kill Han. But he doesn't. Because...? I don't understand the temptation of the Dark Side here. ... With Kylo I just don't see any of this and I'm not that inclined to trust that it's coming.
What drives Kylo is fear. He is afraid that he is weak. He is afraid that he can't live up to his legendary parents and grandparents. He is afraid of people looking down on him, and seeing him for the nervous weakling that he is. So he clings to the idea that the Dark Side gives power. Following the legacy of Darth Vader and commanding armies of Stormtroopers gives him feelings of power and confidence he never felt as the son of Rebel heroes. However, he still can't escape his own fear and anxiety, especially since he still has a lingering conscience. So he gets trapped in an endless cycle of anxiety.
 
Real question, does Vader still have his junk after Ep III or did it burn off as he was lying there face down with his junk against the hot, glowing rocks?

Is it feasible that he had other children besides Luke and Leia? Could Rey be another grandchild?
 

Big One

Banned
"Near master Jedi" good grief..
She absolutely is. To say it doesn't take training to do a Jedi mind trick is absurd. It took Luke himself years to even pull one off as far as we know so in theory it doesn't make much sense for Rey to catch on so quickly, unless she has an inherit ability of some sort, like Anakin before her.

If she isn't Anakin 2 through reincarnation shenanigans I'm definitely gauging that she's basically another Chosen One or something of that sort.
 
She absolutely is. To say it doesn't take training to do a Jedi mind trick is absurd. It took Luke himself years to even pull one off as far as we know so in theory it doesn't make much sense for Rey to catch on so quickly, unless she has an inherit ability of some sort, like Anakin before her.

If she isn't Anakin 2 through reincarnation shenanigans I'm definitely gauging that she's basically another Chosen One or something of that sort.

I slightly like the theory that there was a vacuum of power locked inside her, and Kylo unleashes it when he probes her. She's not just the new anikin.
 
She absolutely is. To say it doesn't take training to do a Jedi mind trick is absurd. It took Luke himself years to even pull one off as far as we know so in theory it doesn't make much sense for Rey to catch on so quickly, unless she has an inherit ability of some sort, like Anakin before her.

If she isn't Anakin 2 through reincarnation shenanigans I'm definitely gauging that she's basically another Chosen One or something of that sort.

Maybe she found some midichlorians on one of the old spaceships on Jakku and injected herself with them.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
She absolutely is. To say it doesn't take training to do a Jedi mind trick is absurd. It took Luke himself years to even pull one off as far as we know so in theory it doesn't make much sense for Rey to catch on so quickly, unless she has an inherit ability of some sort, like Anakin before her.

If she isn't Anakin 2 through reincarnation shenanigans I'm definitely gauging that she's basically another Chosen One or something of that sort.

She has the benefit of having someone use one on her, which Luke did not. Look at how the interrogation scene plays out: After Kylo initially reads Rey's throughts with ease ("You imagine an ocean...I see the island."), she gets scared and angry, and yells, "Get out of my head!" And Kylo is pushed back a bit, to his surprise, and hers. Rey did something she didn't know she could, as he was working her over.

The rest of the scene is Rey slowly finding she can push back and then turning the tables a bit. Luke was never in that kind of situation, so we can't say with any degree of certitude that he could not have done the same. He sure picked up the whole "block laser blasts with a lightsaber while blind" trick in a hurry. What's to say he couldn't pick up mind reading/trick with the same speed?

The fact that Rey goes through very different experiences than Luke makes it difficult to find many apples to apples comparisons of their learning process. To the extent that they are comparable, Luke picks up on everything Obi-wan teaches him in ANH right away, while Rey picks up on what Kylo Ren teaches her at about the same pace.
 

Snake

Member
Quick question: Why does 3P0 have his gold arm back at the end of the film? Noticed it on my third showing ha and don't understand why. What's the running thought in it?

If true, I can't believe I didn't notice this the second time around.

Do you guys think Finn fighting with the lightsaber most of the movie will ultimately mean nothing? With Rey being revealed as Force-Sensitive and beating Ben (Your name is Ben asshole) in the end, Finn using it probably was a red herring and that makes me sad.

I would bet money that Finn isn't done with lightsabers or the force, broadly. His whole character is about forging an identity and destiny out of nothing. Even if he doesn't become a full-fledged jedi, I think he'll continue to follow his own unique path which will include tapping into the force in some way. It may not have been the most obvious choice, but it wasn't a random whim when Maz Kanata entrusted Finn with that lightsaber.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
Huh, this is really not what I got out of it. It didn't seem to me like Kylo was primarily motivated by anger at his parents or Luke, or really anger at all. He's angry, sure, but I didn't think he was with TFO or out to kill Han because he was angry with Han specifically. The impression I got (granted, I just saw it once) is that killing Han was something he understood to be a necessary evil. He wasn't happy about killing Han. But he had to kill Han in order to become more truly Dark. He wants this because something something Vader - his hero worship of Vader is pretty strongly established. Is it just that he wants to be powerful? To what end? I don't buy "to show them all" because of his conflictedness about actually showing Han.

Edit: I don't think this is an idiosyncratic take on it. I've seen lots of people say they liked that Kylo is presented as "tempted" by the Light because he doesn't actually seem to want to kill his father and that his reasons for wanting to be Dark aren't just about hating people.

That's just what I got out of what I saw in the movie but everyone is entitled to their own interpretations. I'm actually fine if we never learn anything more about his background that what we are given in the movie. I don't think he killed Han because he hated him, I do think that he did not have a great relationship with Han, but I still believe he mostly cared about power and unlocking his full potential. As much as a rocky relationship he probably had with his dad he still recognized he was his father and thus was conflicted when it came time to fully commit to the Dark Side but eventually accepted it had to be done for him to fully unlock his potential.
 
I see a lot of people mentioning here and else where that Vader is in Rogue One, is this confirmed basically or just a super fan theory? I would really love to see Vader on screen again.
 
Kylo getting hit by Chewie. Sure.
Kylo holding the bolt after killing the old man. Eh.

I just prefer other demonstrations of Force power that feels more consistent with what I know of it and has been shown of it. To add to that, the Force seemed more interesting as an idea of "skill", something that even Force sensitive people had to become more skilled at using, to hone their natural ability more effectively rather than straight a contest of power levels.

That's still the case. When talking about Jedi. For the Sith or Dark Side of the force, it is different.

And to that train of thought, how is Kylo Ren's skill shown when his ability justification is through some emotional story beats and a non-trained Force user can kick his ass with a weapon she's never touched before? Is every Force user the Star Wars Hulk now, where it's all about anger and emotion rather than skill and training?

Rey adapted her own stick fighting style that she has used to survive all on her own to a Lightsaber. You can see the way she awkwardly thrusts and swings it.
Plus its a sword. We all know how to use a sword. And even though the weapons are different, Rey has the skill and the coordination to use the lightsaber to defend herself. She wasn't doing anything advanced. She was fighting about the same as Finn.

But still, the Lightsaber is a Jedi's weapon, but it doesn't define a Jedi's true power.

Her skill in beating Kylo, who was wounded mentally and physically, had more to do with her getting over her fear and remaining calm and relying on her already honed fighting ability, more than the Force "making her win".
That calmness allowed her to tap into the Force. The same thing Yoda stresses to Luke thru out his whole training sequence.

A portion of Yoda's own words in ESB:

Yoda: Yes, run! Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.

This is in the OT and gives a glimpse into what Kylo is going thru and able to achieve, and why he probably chose the Dark Side over the Force.

This observation/speculation about Kylo's possible journey down the Dark path seems plausible and gives reason why he isn't consistent with his abilities.
What drives Kylo is fear. He is afraid that he is weak. He is afraid that he can't live up to his legendary parents and grandparents. He is afraid of people looking down on him, and seeing him for the nervous weakling that he is. So he clings to the idea that the Dark Side gives power. Following the legacy of Darth Vader and commanding armies of Stormtroopers gives him feelings of power and confidence he never felt as the son of Rebel heroes. However, he still can't escape his own fear and anxiety, especially since he still has a lingering conscience. So he gets trapped in an endless cycle of anxiety.

But don't confuse going over to the Dark Side as having to become an emotional wreck. Kylo is at his most cruel yet calm when he kills the old man which allows him to "hold" the blaster in place.

Although I too don't want this to turn into DBZ, Force Unleashed levels of absurdity, I feel that a force "hold" is a natural evolution of the Force. The Force is a living breathing thing, and its only natural for a new generation of Jedi and Sith a like to discover new ways/techniques/skills of using it. Especially if they are gifted/seduced by the Force/Dark Side.

Again I don't want this to turn into DBZ, Force Unleashed levels of absurdity, but Push, Pull, "Hold" doesn't seem like that big of a stretch when thinking about someone who didn't grow up in the Golden age of the Jedi, using their imagination to come up with new skills/techniques. The Force is a living breathing thing, and its only natural for a new generation of Jedi and Sith a like to discover new or just more complex ways ways of using it. Especially if they are gifted.

But it's alright if you feel that crosses the line.
I'll be right there with you if they throw a Kamehameha blast.
I may cheer for a second, but then I'll be like

Seinfeld-Leaving.gif
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Plus its a sword. We all know how to use a sword.

No, we don't. If anything someone who's seen a lot of movie swordfighting but never been trained would probably be at a disadvantage against someone who'd never seen a sword before.
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
So I guess Ren skipped all the light saber training and focused purely on force torture 101.

I think people have spent way too much effort deconstructing this movie, literally way more than the people that created it...but who would Kylo Ren even spar against? Maybe one of the other Knights of Ren, but did we even see them in a non flashback capacity? He has probably been resting on his laurels for awhile. He doesn't run into many that are adept in the force, so he shows off and makes quick work of them. It wouldn't surprise me if this is the first time he's faced a true opponent in awhile.
 

Meowster

Member
Finally saw this and Rey using the force to grab the lightsaber was the greatest thing about the movie, aside from the ending.
The musical cues they use in that scene and the swelling and modulation of the Force leitmotif in Luke's reveal at the end are just fantastic. It just sends shivers up your spine. Anyone else rather like the glimpses they've given us for Kylo Ren's theme? It's very understated but conflicting? It's quite good once you make it out.
 

Ashhong

Member
A gift from Obi-wan and his redeemed father's lightsaber. It's not? There was an entire final scene of TFA dedicated to delivering it to him as he looked like he was about to shed a tear.

Hm, was she gifting it to him or was she using it more as a symbol? I thought it was the latter. Like "hey see, I'm a Jedi, here's your lightsaber, take me seriously"
 
Yeah, seems to me like you're reading more into that.

Is that the reason Kylo Ren wants it? To annoy (/hurt?) Luke? Yeah, I don't buy it.



Did he?

Okay, well, apparently Luke doesn't have feelings. I don't know what else to say. Luke nearly died sacrificing himself to redeem his father, he succeeds only for Vader to die in his place, and you're telling me the lightsaber that was formerly his father's that he used to fight him until the end of his rope at the end of Empire seemingly to be lost forever means nothing to him?

Okay maybe he wasn't shedding a tear but the movie is making a point that the lightsaber delivery was a big deal to the characters. They only sat on that same pose for like ten minutes.

Hm, was she gifting it to him or was she using it more as a symbol? I thought it was the latter. Like "hey see, I'm a Jedi, here's your lightsaber, take me seriously"

There was never a point that I thought Obi-wan didn't have Luke's attention. And the object went from one person's possession to another. That's a gift.
 
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